Kick It Out

[luvgonzo]

Ferdinands and Jason Roberts all refused to wear the t-shirts this weekend. Their problem with the organisation seems to be the lack of action from Kick it out in regards to the recent John Terry case.

Imo these players should throw their weight behind Kick it out instead of snubbing them.

Also talk of Rio leading the way for a black football players union, again surely this is wrong and further segregating black players from their fellow professionals.

Former England star John Barnes believes football can only eradicate racism once the problem is removed from society.

"You can't target racism in football as long as it exists in society," he told BBC Sport.

"We're trying to do it the wrong way round. A lot can be done but all we can do in football is target and tackle the symptom."

Barnes has sympathy for the stand that was made by Roberts but believes Kick It Out is facing a difficult task.

He added: "Jason has to do what he thinks is right and maybe he thinks it will take something like this for more strong action to be taken.

"I have a lot of empathy but also with Kick It Out, too. We still have a long way to go."

So what is the answer to this problem?

 

[Jimmy Squarefoot]

For once, I agree with Fergie's comments. Rio should realise that KIO have little to no powers and are run on a small budget. Their job is to raise awareness which they have done - look how racism is now a hot topic. Before, we wouldn't have heard of these isolated incidents of racial abuse but it's in the papers on a weekly basis.

Rio and other black players should show more respect to his organisation and focus their 'anger' towards the people who CAN make a difference i.e. the FA.

John Barnes is incapable of saying anything stupid - his interviews are always spot on.

This quote sums it up for me:

"You can't target racism in football as long as it exists in society," he told BBC Sport.

Why is it up to KIO to eradicate a problem that is not confined to just football?

 

[chelsea - over 100 years of history]

This is all leading to Rio Ferdinand being some sort of voice for black people in football. Given he can barely string a sentance together, surely there are more qualified people?!?!

Black players union, worse idea I've heard in a long while and verging on racist itself. What a noob.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

well IMO this is a complex issue that doesn't simply stem from one action but a series of actions.

1. Rio ferdinand sees this as the FA ending his england career in favour of john terry..

2. he sees this as such beacuse the court case was moved convienently after the euros... even though his brother allowed this to happen.... he sees hodgson dropping him and mouthing off and doesn't beleive its merited.

3. the FA had video evidence on terry, everyone saw it so the delays in hearing this case were very much seen IMO as delay tactics and not due process.

What i see is one ferdinand being very quiet and the other being very vocal. Did rio lose the england slot due to terry case or not? a nuetral observer might see differently to rio or an lfc fan having a go at a rival player.

On the other hand jason roberts started in on suarez day one. he's got his own agenda running and what that is one can only guess.


In the end what we have is a situation where now any case of anyone saying anything has to go through a process where the player will be villified by all and sundry before any decision is finally taken and rival fans will mouth ugly abuse at them shaming themselves and football. The punishment is there to stop racial abuse but if its now creating a more personal and quite amazing level of vitriol for the player who makes that mistake.

In the end if a guy makes a mistake once and is getting such abuse then eventually we'll go back to the 80s which is not what we want.

 

[DirtyFrank]

Difficult one. I think the overall claim is that instead of boycotting the one limited organisation that (as has been stated) has actually raised racism as an issue to the point the FA can't ignore it anymore (I'd argue that it also reflects a wider intolerance for racism in society that maybe was not present 20 years ago). These players that are boycotting should be MORE active in the campaign, put MORE pressure on the FA to become even less tolerant & bring stricter rules.

A "black" union is segregation which their forefathers bled & died to remove around the world. If it's successful are "white" players allowed to form their own union & describe it as such? Again maybe they (boycotters) should be more vocal WITHIN their existing union rather than whine elsewhere. I'm assuming as a block vote black players as a group (if they want to vote according to race?? Thought that was the problem)would be a very sizeable & effective pressure group within the union?

Lets get real about the real elephant in the room: money & the price of players that has distorted this particular work place. In a "normal" workplace none of the behaviour described on both sides of both of the main incidents, Suarez/Evra, Terry/Ferdinand would have been tolerated and all 4 players would have been at least disciplined if not sacked for ALL their comments.

But football apparently is different. To stop the "Argie bargie & banter" would take the "passion" out of the game. Really? ALL players talk like this every match do they? Bullshit.

The real reason the normal HR policies on harassment & behaviour in the workplace aren't adopted in the football world is it would lead to a club having to sack an employee that cost them 20+ million. Money.

You want this type of behaviour (including the worst; racism) to stop? Introduce the same rules as any other work place. All the FA has to do is add a proviso that if a player is sacked as a result of that players behaviour they can't play again unless they agree to pay back the market value of themselves to the club that sacked them. That way; the player can't just skip off to a new club and leave their old employer millions out and it covers their Human rights: you're not stopping them from working as long as they eventually pay back what it cost their previous employer. They can do it in instalments from their new 100 grand weekly wage poor wee baby will have to make do with 20k a week until they've paid off their own transfer fee.

THAT would stop all this behaviour very quickly.

 

[Flappy Flanagan (JK)]

The lack of action that has anoyed me is the lack of action against Anton Ferdinand. He was the one provoking Terry, taunting them and leading Terry to react. Ferdinand should have a 4 match ban.

The message the FA are putting out here is this: If you provoke some one in a way that breaks the rules and fair play status of football, but they then react with one potentially racist comment, you become the victim.

Terry is not a bad guy (apart from with woman). Ferdinand must have really struck a nerve.

My view on the T-Shirts is that they were kind of worthless. I know they were to promote the campaign to the public, but I didnt even see them get much air time on TV.

 

[Flappy Flanagan (JK)]

By the way, I made a thread yesterday in the Premier League thread regarding Asian footballers and there lack of attention from these campaigns.

----------

My mum just made a good point by saying they should not just focus on racism, but also work on kicking out other abusive chants like 'who ate all the pies', which Steve Bruce has openly said is very hurtful. If a kid heard that chant at a game and chanted it to a larger kid at school they would become a bully.

ginger haired footballers also get a lot of abuse. Probably more than black players these days. That needs kicking out but gets ignored.

The fans may see it as fun. But it is cruel and abusive.

Suggesting racism is the biggest issue here is ignorant and will never improve the situation.

 

[luvgonzo]

My mum just made a good point by saying they should not just focus on racism, but also work on kicking out other abusive chants like 'who ate all the pies', which Steve Bruce has openly said is very hurtful. If a kid heard that chant at a game and chanted it to a larger kid at school they would become a bully.

I don't think these 2 issues should be compared, yes bullying is an issue that should not be ignored but personally I think it is at a different end of the scale from the main issue here.

ginger haired footballers also get a lot of abuse. Probably more than black players these days. That needs kicking out but gets ignored.

They should form a seperate union for ginger football players.

 

[Jimmy Squarefoot]

Personally, I don't see the difference between insulting someone based on their skin colour or by their weight, or gender, hair colour etc.

It's all insulting and I don't think one type of insult should be considered more offensive then the other.

 

[saintanton]

They should form a seperate union for ginger football players.

How would they deal with people gingering up to get in?

 

[Flappy Flanagan (JK)]

Personally, I don't see the difference between insulting someone based on their skin colour or by their weight, or gender, hair colour etc.

It's all insulting and I don't think one type of insult should be considered more offensive then the other.

I agree.

Ultimately its victimizing them because they are different to you.

Take a look at some English players. Jermaine Jenas openly said he has never received any racial abuse whilst playing football in this country.

Frank Lampard and Wayne Rooney get teased about their weight all the time.

-

I see what Luvgonzo means though. Racism has this whole different history to it.

 

[Jimmy Squarefoot]

and while it's fair to say that the amount of suffering racism is caused is greater than the abuse suffered by fat/ginger/whatever people, it's nonsense to say you aren't going to do anything about bullying until racism is sorted once and for all.

the whole campaign is a bullshit PR exercise and needs scrapping.

if the FA gives a **** about racism, use the KIO money to hire at least ONE black match official or executive instead.

I agree in that there is a whole stigma around racism, more so than other forms of discrimination.

I think KIO have raised awareness. Behind the scenes, they go into schools and educate youngsters, have presence within the media - hence why we are talking about racism. I highly doubt that racism would be getting the same level of coverage had KIO not existed, and I applaud their efforts.

 

[Jimmy Squarefoot]

Also, I don't think positive discrimination is the way forward i.e. hiring a person just because he is black.

What we need are more non-minorities (white people) to stand up alongside the minorities and offer their support.

Only until we have an organisation which is mixed and supported by everyone (blacks, whites, asians etc) will the message become stronger.

At the moment, it seems as if only the black players are the only ones annoyed and it causes a divide (us vs them mentality).

 

[Tobes]

Ferdinand's idea of creating a black players union is divissive & counter productive to the cause.

By definition, if this union is only open to black players, then he's creating a divide & could even be accused of racism himself.

The man's a hypocrite imo, given his re-tweeting of the comment aimed at Ashley Cole.

His entire beef is about Terry getting what he considered a low punishment for the incident with his brother. This is a personal issue that he's making into a problem for the game in general. His anger at KIO is misplaced.

 

[Jimmy Squarefoot]

Ferdinand's idea of creating a black players union is divissive & counter productive to the cause.

By definition, if this union is only open to black players, then he's creating a divide & could even be accused of racism himself.

The man's a hypocrite imo, given his re-tweeting of the comment aimed at Ashley Cole.

His entire beef is about Terry getting what he considered a low punishment for the incident with his brother. This is a personal issue that he's making into a problem for the game in general. His anger at KIO is misplaced.

Agreed - however, he did tweet this morning saying 'don't believe everything you read' which leads me to believe that the 'Black Union' is just lazy journalism.

 

[Tobes]

Agreed - however, he did tweet this morning saying 'don't believe everything you read' which leads me to believe that the 'Black Union' is just lazy journalism.

Or maybe he's slept on it & realised it's a terrible idea mate.

 

[luvgonzo]

Agreed - however, he did tweet this morning saying 'don't believe everything you read' which leads me to believe that the 'Black Union' is just lazy journalism.

I believe the report came from the Daily Mail so yes we should not take it too seriously.

 

[DirtyFrank]

Again, impose normal HR rules on it and none of that would be acceptable behaviour.

Footballers aren't 12 for feck sake, why do they need to call anyone names? Seriously managers don't set aside time to train in name calling & wind ups. So sanction it, same as you would in an office.

As for crowd chanting abuse be it fat or black or ginger that's a clubs responsibility. If its recorded 1 point deduction. Stopped dead. Again "removing passion" isn't a good enough argument. We have one of (and a few more beside) the most recognisable chants/songs not just in football but in sport & it doesn't include any negative references at all.

Sorry folks its all or nothing. Black players do not get to have a special case about name calling be it from the crowd or a opposing player. Enough of this historical context nonsense: none of these players were slaves, neither were their parents. I'm not anti Italian because they once conquered my lands and enslaved us Irish or Anti French or Anti English or the dozen or so other countries that deemed the Irish as almost subhuman at one point or other & treated us badly either in Ireland or in the countries we moved too simply because we were Irish.

So; either we say we're all adults and name calling however abhorrent is acceptable legally & should be dealt with socially i.e. we personally shun those who bully or are racist but its not a sanctionable crime.

Or we say none of it is acceptable and should always be sanctioned equally.

As soon as you start saying "but this isn't as bad as this" you open a door to excuse behaviour; because if YOU can have an excuse or sliding scale why can't someone else & why would YOUR scale be more correct than theirs ? Just because your skin or hair colour (naturally) comes top of your list???

No, this halfway apologist: we'll go so far back in history & feel guilty for what we did to some & not others so treat them differently as a group today is STILL treating them differently as a group.

The law needs to state clearly that being abused verbally based on ANY GENETIC characteristic is illegal. One punishment. Being physical abused because of ANY genetic characteristic another level of punishment and so on.

This will remove all these definitions based on race, nationality, gender and meaningless debates on which is more important/insulting yadyada!

If we continue to point to differences legally we will always, always have differences socially. You will not remove racism because you are continuing to state that this group or that group is different.

 

[luvgonzo]

The union — which has a working name of The Federation of Black Players but will be open to players from all ethnic backgrounds who share a desire to combat racism in English football — will be self-funded by professionals at every level.
The union’s mission statement is expected to honour the achievements of black footballers and promote unity within the sport at every level, from players to spectators.
The idea, which has been conceived by Ferdinand, is already gathering momentum among black players and has received widespread support.
It will be the first of its kind in this country, but there is a long-established Black Baseball Players Association in the United States.
Ferdinand wants to protect the interests of the current generation of black players and is eager, for instance, to defend the rights of the young players caught up in last week’s traumatic events that marred the England Under 21 game in Serbia.

Although every professional player is entitled to PFA representation, the new union is unlikely to be affiliated with the official body. That does, however, remain up for discussion, with meetings with the PFA still planned.

From the Mail.

 

[Jimmy Squarefoot]

Frank - Well said. In practice, I don't think think it would work but I agree with it all and it represents how I feel towards racism and other insults.