Keegan or Clough
- Thread starter tiggermaster
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I'm sorry I agree our defence isn't the worst thing ever and think we'll be ok come may but some comments on here I really just cant agree with. The reason we have conceded soo many goals is NOT just who we played. Against United we gave two players free headers in the box yes RVP's third was a great finish but it resulted from an elementary mistake we will concede against every team in the league by giving away free headers. Just watch Hansens analysis on MOTD about our defending against Arsenal yes they played well but again full of elementary mistakes from our defence.
I have faith the defence will come good but not by a long shot is the goals against collum just due to who we played.
I have faith the defence will come good but not by a long shot is the goals against collum just due to who we played.
I agree that I think we'll stay up but I'm sorry this is an incredibly aragont post. You state that other opinions are wrong and unfounded on what authority can you make that claim?? I actually agree that our defence with a couple of tweaks should be ok but lets look at the facts weve conceded 14 goals already six in one match now of course there are factors and such wich is why people interpret the facts in different ways. But how can you say that they are just wrong? All you have done is present an alternative opinion, an alternative explanation of the facts you can't decide your objectively right.
Ok my mistake about Rooney. In my rage I glazed over that fact. It must have been some crap striker instead... oh yeah thats right it was Danny Welbeck. Crap isn't he? Idiot.
TBD its easy to look at the goals and say we gifted them to the opposition through simply poor defending, and for those I believe you are refering to I agree it was poorly dealt with. However, you have to look at the bigger picture. The reason these mistakes were made were because of the pressure we were under which is im afraid caused by the fact that we played top sides. If you were to come on here after 10/15/20 games were played and we have still continued to make basic errors and be near the bottom purely because of the goals we have conceeded then you would have more credability to your argument. However, we are 4 games in and whether you accept it or not we have played some top teams who will embarass other sides and force them into basic mistakes too.
Having said that I do agree with you that it is not completely about who we have played but it is very early to make sweeping statements after 4 games
TBD its easy to look at the goals and say we gifted them to the opposition through simply poor defending, and for those I believe you are refering to I agree it was poorly dealt with. However, you have to look at the bigger picture. The reason these mistakes were made were because of the pressure we were under which is im afraid caused by the fact that we played top sides. If you were to come on here after 10/15/20 games were played and we have still continued to make basic errors and be near the bottom purely because of the goals we have conceeded then you would have more credability to your argument. However, we are 4 games in and whether you accept it or not we have played some top teams who will embarass other sides and force them into basic mistakes too.
Having said that I do agree with you that it is not completely about who we have played but it is very early to make sweeping statements after 4 games
I havent made any sweeping statements, I think we'll be fine. I dont think were going to concede 100 goals or anything all I'm saying is it didnt take attacking genuis's to score the goals against us. Yes you do have a point about the pressure thats why United have won so much over the years.
Firstly, I was talking mainly about the Youth situation when I said about the opinion being wrong. Which it is. You disagree?
I dont see how my post was arogant? It is not arogant to disagree with someone elses view and then demonstrate how that view is incorrect. To say that in my opinon that view is wrong is not arogant it is in itself as you said, simply an opinion. I am not forcing you to agree with me but at the same time I completely believe that what I said is true. And I believe that the majority of Saints fans would agree.
I dont see how my post was arogant? It is not arogant to disagree with someone elses view and then demonstrate how that view is incorrect. To say that in my opinon that view is wrong is not arogant it is in itself as you said, simply an opinion. I am not forcing you to agree with me but at the same time I completely believe that what I said is true. And I believe that the majority of Saints fans would agree.
And no I didnt say you did make any sweeping statements. I was refering to earlier in the post when it was said by a couple of posters that we got our transfer policy drastically wrong and shouldn't have spent 11m on Ramirez. That is the kind of sweeping statement I disagree with.
Thank you finally - an optimist but also a realist and not a pair of scissors or a vulnerable wrist in sight!
Norwich fan in peace. Said this before on an earlier thread on this board, we shipped 66 goals last season and survived. Only a couple of the relegated teams let in more goals than us. We survived by scoring goals and winning games, or to put it another way, by having a goal difference of less than -20. That's not a strategy for long term success in the PL, but you can certainly survive this season with it. Then you can strengthen defensively next season when the money rains down from Sky! 
Most newly promoted teams/relegation fighters let in a ton of goals. If we can score freely and consistently then we'll be doing what a lot of the said teams cannot do.
Jeez, you have to be brave to start a thread on here about football! Re-read my original post. At no point was I critical of anybody. You have managed to extrapolate negative inferences where none exist. All I did was to quote a few facts and ask a basic question. If you want an opinion, as I didn't give one originally, I actually like the Southampton way. It is true we are letting in goals. It is also true we have not had a home grown centre back since Waldron who stayed the course. All of the successful Saints teams I have watched over the last 55 years have been more risk taking than pragmatic, with the possible exception of the Hoddle and Strachan teams. Another of my opinions is that both those managers organised teams that were hard to beat and made the most of limited resources. We now seem to have more resources so perhaps we need not be so pragmatic. By the way, I thought talking all things Saints including potential style of play was the point of this forum, so if that's being 'incredibly stupid', then there really is not much point to the forum.
Ok sorry, it was probably abit harsh to call your post arogant. I just seemed as if you were justifying your rant by saying 'yeh I know other people can have different opinions but there wrong and I'm right'. My point is NO ONE is 'Right' or 'wrong' when it comes to opinons only some are more rational supported helpfull etc etc. The opinion on the youth thing was that we havent produced enough top quality defenders. Now I agree whole heartedly with you and I think are youth system is great and its more that we've just produced too many quality attackers soo it seems like we dont produce defenders when compared to other clubs we do. If they say 'there are no defenders from southampton playing pro football' of course you could just say there wrong. But if its there opinion that we dont produce enough I cant see how you can just say 'no your wrong'.
Anyway apologies for being a bit strong worded, the funny thing is I actually agree with your post a lot more than most of the others just took issue with some parts of it.
TBD you know what I kind of agree with you. Maybe I worded my post a bit strong too. I just can't help but get aggrevated when I see so much worthless negativity.
Perhaps their is something to the youth defenders thing, although I would be more inclined to agree on a lack of 'Centre Backs' than 'Defenders' as lets not forget Bale came through as a left back and Chris Baird (if i remember rightly) started out as a right back. However, Centre backs their are definantly less. But then to be honest I'm struggling to think of many top quality centre backs in recent times that have been produced by youth academies in this country. Can you think of many? In comparison with attacking players anyway, who I could list a huge number of. Perhaps it is more of a national issue?
Tiggermaster, as I did say in my post it wasn't actually your initial thread that I thought was 'stupid' but a combination of the responses to it and in part to the negative connatations suggested in the questions you ask. I understand the issue you were trying to discuss but actually I dont think the questions are relevant to the teams current predicament, but again that is just my opinion. I also dont agree with the way you are trying to link the teams current defensive performances as a result of previous Saints sides under different managers and the lack of youth centre backs. Which you imply through the questions you ask. Otherwise why ask them?
Perhaps to say your thread was stupid was a mistake and I apoligise if I offended you, maybe I should have simply said that I don't agree that what you are discussing has any impact whatsoever on the current team or affects the club as of right now in any way. Again I will stress that it is the responses of certain people, who to be honest post that way on a regular basis, that really got my goat.
Perhaps their is something to the youth defenders thing, although I would be more inclined to agree on a lack of 'Centre Backs' than 'Defenders' as lets not forget Bale came through as a left back and Chris Baird (if i remember rightly) started out as a right back. However, Centre backs their are definantly less. But then to be honest I'm struggling to think of many top quality centre backs in recent times that have been produced by youth academies in this country. Can you think of many? In comparison with attacking players anyway, who I could list a huge number of. Perhaps it is more of a national issue?
Tiggermaster, as I did say in my post it wasn't actually your initial thread that I thought was 'stupid' but a combination of the responses to it and in part to the negative connatations suggested in the questions you ask. I understand the issue you were trying to discuss but actually I dont think the questions are relevant to the teams current predicament, but again that is just my opinion. I also dont agree with the way you are trying to link the teams current defensive performances as a result of previous Saints sides under different managers and the lack of youth centre backs. Which you imply through the questions you ask. Otherwise why ask them?
Perhaps to say your thread was stupid was a mistake and I apoligise if I offended you, maybe I should have simply said that I don't agree that what you are discussing has any impact whatsoever on the current team or affects the club as of right now in any way. Again I will stress that it is the responses of certain people, who to be honest post that way on a regular basis, that really got my goat.
Well you are definitely right about that one.
I know this is pretty off topic now but I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of Saints academy defenders vs Bales/Oxos/Theos etc etc. Don't forget that a few years ago we nearly went bust and the academy suffered badly (a lot of the training/medical/backroom staff went to Pompey!). It took time to recover. Sometimes I see people talking about who has the best academy by reeling off past names all the way back to Shearer and Le Tiss, no. Ours is the best because of who we will produce in the future.
PS it has to make sense that a centre back/goalkeeper would have to be more physically developed before they can play in the first team, if you are playing a teenager then they damn well better be something special.
Yeh I mean Mills at one point seemed like a rising star and we've done alright with full backs. I agree though I think the standards of defence generally compared to attack in this country is fairly poor. Like United almost won the league last year and often had to play makeshift defences. I dont really see it as a problem though I would love to have our whole team as academy players but thats never going to happen and at the moment we regularly see great players come through much more so than other clubs so long may that continue. Also good defenders are cheaper to buy than attackers so its a money saver!
Again CIOL, there are no negative connotations in my original post. Our youth system over the last 35 years (Steve Williams, Graham Baker onwards has produced superb results, just not many centre backs, or goalkeepers come to that. As I stated originally this may have been by design or luck, (hardly a negative statement). It could be that youth coaches over generations have concentrated on developing attributes that have more to do with the attacking, or that scouts have been told to look for players with potential attacking attributes. It may also have been that the club realised that the sale value of attack minded players tends to be higher than defensive minded players. Macgoldrick is worth more than Cranie or Mills put together? Given that we have always been a selling club this would seem a very reasonable long term strategy. Times may have changed resource wise.
Thanks for the apology, I look forward to reading your point of view going forward...
Thanks for the apology, I look forward to reading your point of view going forward...
Fair enough TM. Perhaps I read more into your post than you intended, maybe the responses of said negative posters influenced how I read your initial post?
You could have a point with the sell on value of attacking players in comparison with defensive ones. Possibly the aim early on was to get those attacking players, I think now it is for a more rounded player, in the Barcelona esque model. Would explain why a large number of our current youth set up are quite slight in stature?
TBD, I do think within the next few years we will see plenty of youth players come into the first team. Perhaps only 1 or 2 a year. JWP this year, Luke Shaw & Jack Stephens look to be the next ones to me (possibly next year?)... heard good things about the Sinclair lad (maybe a couple of years time?). What was the target Cortese set? 40% from the Academy? So 5 players... I'm presuming he meant by the end of the 5 year plan so definantly realistic if the above players plus a couple of others make the grade in the next 3 years. Exciting times I think
You could have a point with the sell on value of attacking players in comparison with defensive ones. Possibly the aim early on was to get those attacking players, I think now it is for a more rounded player, in the Barcelona esque model. Would explain why a large number of our current youth set up are quite slight in stature?
TBD, I do think within the next few years we will see plenty of youth players come into the first team. Perhaps only 1 or 2 a year. JWP this year, Luke Shaw & Jack Stephens look to be the next ones to me (possibly next year?)... heard good things about the Sinclair lad (maybe a couple of years time?). What was the target Cortese set? 40% from the Academy? So 5 players... I'm presuming he meant by the end of the 5 year plan so definantly realistic if the above players plus a couple of others make the grade in the next 3 years. Exciting times I think
Very true. Youngsters are also more inclined to make mistakes and attacking players have more leeway in that regard. A scuffed shot, overhit cross or poor through ball won't be highlighted as much as a missed defensive header in the box that leads to a goal or a poor tackle that gives away a free kick or penalty.