So we fired Arry for this.

[Hoddle is a god]

Today's result was a disappointment, because of the dreadful defending (or lack thereof) for their goal. He we had scrapped the three-points, we wouldn't be so negative.

I've already written off this season as one for consolidation. I can see what AVB is trying to do, and I think we will benefit greatly from it, when it does all finally click into place. I think we have to get out of our heads, though, that we have any chance of finishing inside the top 5 this season. There are too many players that we need to get shot of and too many more that we need to bring in, in order for AVB's plan to become effective. On balance, I think it is worth waiting for.

The alternative is, that we get rid of AVB and bring in another Harry-like manager, who's going to take the risk on getting the current players to continue over-achieving. I don't want that. i want us to be genuine title contenders, and we will never be that if we don't put in place the proper systems that will advance the technical qualities of both our squad and our coaching staff.

Patience, my fellow Yids.

 

[Boss]

I've already written off this season as one for consolidation.

HIAG, I admire your patience but because I don't believe in avbs methods, I can't bring myself to have such patience so I assume there are many fans like myself that need to be convinced that avb's method work and can improve on what arry achieved.

 

[Spurlock]

for me that is 3 defensive lapses.....which has cost us 3 goals this term already...not due to a system..but the personnel.....the defense does not seem to be in tandem....very important to get Vert bedded in..he looks quality....as for upfront once Ade has found his feet again i think we will start looking more clinical upfront...i totally refuse to even raise an eyebrow at this early stage at AVB...Levy back your manager!

p.s i truly believe the stadium plans are affecting our transfer activity as we all knew but dreaded.

 

[PowerSpurs]

It is quite amazing how much over-reaction we are getting after two games. We are playing a new system under a new manager with several of our best players from last year unavailable. We do need to do something about the Modric situation, and back-up for Ade but I think we will be OK.

As for the tactics: we ought to be better with 4231 and a 'high-line'. If you want to see how a high-line/pressing game works in the PL then watch Swansea's first two games - their players are nowhere near as good individually as ours - anyone want to swap Bale for Routledge? - but they understand how to play the system. It is a no brainer for me. The weaker passers in any team are usually in the back four so they are the ideal players to be pressed. If we are pressing the back four then our defence has to be further forward to avoid a huge gap in midfield so hence the 'high line'. A lot of PL defenders are much less complete footballers than those in some of the other European leagues so the system ought to work fine. But it will need time to make it work. As for the two defensive midfielders argument - every team has to have a least six outfield players who can defend well. It has always made sense to me to have specialist defensive CMs and pick four good attackers rather than rely on multi-purpose players like Jenas and his ilk. It's not as if Sandro, Parker and Livermore are neanderthals.

If you compare the way we and Chelsea played against Newcastle (both 4231) then there was only one difference: we gave away a silly penalty and they didn't. When you compare the way Newcastle played against us vis a vis Chelsea then they gave Chelsea a silly penalty and didn't give one to us. Also Ba scored a screamer against us and missed two easier chances against them.

As mentioned above - if we had cut out the silly errors then we would have four points now. I also think we will strengthen the squad further. Don't panic!

 

[O.Spurcat]

It is quite amazing how much over-reaction we are getting after two games. We are playing a new system under a new manager with several of our best players from last year unavailable. We do need to do something about the Modric situation, and back-up for Ade but I think we will be OK.

As for the tactics: we ought to be better with 4231 and a 'high-line'. If you want to see how a high-line/pressing game works in the PL then watch Swansea's first two games - their players are nowhere near as good individually as ours - anyone want to swap Bale for Routledge? - but they understand how to play the system. It is a no brainer for me. The weaker passers in any team are usually in the back four so they are the ideal players to be pressed. If we are pressing the back four then our defence has to be further forward to avoid a huge gap in midfield so hence the 'high line'. A lot of PL defenders are much less complete footballers than those in some of the other European leagues so the system ought to work fine. But it will need time to make it work. As for the two defensive midfielders argument - every team has to have a least six outfield players who can defend well. It has always made sense to me to have specialist defensive CMs and pick four good attackers rather than rely on multi-purpose players like Jenas and his ilk. It's not as if Sandro, Parker and Livermore are neanderthals.

If you compare the way we and Chelsea played against Newcastle (both 4231) then there was only one difference: we gave away a silly penalty and they didn't. When you compare the way Newcastle played against us vis a vis Chelsea then they gave Chelsea a silly penalty and didn't give one to us. Also Ba scored a screamer against us and missed two easier chances against them.

As mentioned above - if we had cut out the silly errors then we would have four points now. I also think we will strengthen the squad further. Don't panic!

Well we didn't cut out the silly errors, so we don't have four points now, so that kind of makes your argument futile.

What you don't address, is that if we play this high line, it also forces the opposition back and they have 9/10 men back behind the ball, which is something we have always had problems with breaking down. The system would stand more of a chance if we had Modric and his probing passes, but as I see it, neither Livermore or Sandro seem to offer that. One of our main strengths is the width and pace from Bale and Lennon, but this threat is also minimised by the high line, as both (particuarly Bale), rely on sprinting from deep, yet with the opposition pushed back, their effect is immediately minimised because their space is crowded out.

 

[District Line]

If you compare the way we and Chelsea played against Newcastle (both 4231) then there was only one difference: we gave away a silly penalty and they didn't. When you compare the way Newcastle played against us vis a vis Chelsea then they gave Chelsea a silly penalty and didn't give one to us. Also Ba scored a screamer against us and missed two easier chances against them.

As mentioned above - if we had cut out the silly errors then we would have four points now. I also think we will strengthen the squad further. Don't panic!

Too simplistic IMO. Confident players don't make mistakes like that. Lennon gave the penalty away A) Because he was tired. B) He was out of his comfort zone,

Chelsea know how to play with intelligence, something United and City also have which the other teams don't.

Chelsea created far more openings but it's difficult to compare as you were away and we were at home.

Yes Ba scored a screamer but it was woeful defending. Unlike Gera's vs Liverpool where you just have to hold your hands up and say there's nothing they could do. Ba was able to be back to goal, touch and turn in the box with no challenge from a Spurs player.

Vertonghen from what I hear us excellent but so long as you have G*llas in that back line you are always going to concede goals.

You are not creating enough clear cut chances and the fitness side of your game is being overlooked. It's nothing to worry about yet but may well be soon

 

[PowerSpurs]

Well we didn't cut out the silly errors, so we don't have four points now, so that kind of makes your argument futile.

What you don't address, is that if we play this high line, it also forces the opposition back and they have 9/10 men back behind the ball, which is something we have always had problems with breaking down. The system would stand more of a chance if we had Modric and his probing passes, but as I see it, neither Livermore or Sandro seem to offer that. One of our main strengths is the width and pace from Bale and Lennon, but this threat is also minimised by the high line, as both (particuarly Bale), rely on sprinting from deep, yet with the opposition pushed back, their effect is immediately minimised because their space is crowded out.

All I am saying is that the loss of points is due to errors, not tactics, system or even squad.

Any intelligent opposition stayed back anyway when we were playing Harry's favourite 442 which is why you know we had problems breaking it down. We certainly need someone who can pass like Modric in the middle of the 3 in the 4231. That could be Sig or a new signing. Any pass from there with a pressing system has a good chance of creating a goal.

 

[District Line]

An experienced manager would adapt his methods to suit the players at his disposal, not the other way round.

This.

And that was my biggest problem with AVB and defence of the players

 

[TigersFan]

Yes you fired arry, poor arry!

 

[PowerSpurs]

During the period last season when Spurs were on a run of wins and within touching distance of the two Manchester clubs, 'Arry played 4-4-1-1 almost every game. Two pacy wingers supported by attacking full backs, Modric dictating play, Adebayor running the channels and vdV benefiting from the space created was the formula. Most teams weren't good enough to defend against it (especially at WHL) nor did they have the pace to punish Spurs by counterattacking when they got the ball back.

When the formation was changed due to Lennon's absence, with Bale playing inside, the wheels came off. Apart from Modric, the same players are still at the club. It's clear what formation and tactics work for them. Any formation without wingers may work for those teams who are able to find space between the opposition defence and midfield and play quick, short passes to feet (a la Silva, Tevez, Aguero), but it doesn't seem to work for Spurs. An experienced manager would adapt his methods to suit the players at his disposal, not the other way round.

So you keep saying, Luke, but you also inadvertently keep pointing out why it didn't work. To make 4411 work well you need almost exactly the qualities that Bale, Lennon, Parker, Modric, VdV and Ade have. And it was far less effective for us with any of them missing. We either need to sign decent back-up for 4411 or play a system which works whatever the personnel. We can't afford the former so the latter is a better plan.

 

[PowerSpurs]

Too simplistic IMO. Confident players don't make mistakes like that. Lennon gave the penalty away A) Because he was tired. B) He was out of his comfort zone,

Chelsea know how to play with intelligence, something United and City also have which the other teams don't.

Chelsea created far more openings but it's difficult to compare as you were away and we were at home.

Yes Ba scored a screamer but it was woeful defending. Unlike Gera's vs Liverpool where you just have to hold your hands up and say there's nothing they could do. Ba was able to be back to goal, touch and turn in the box with no challenge from a Spurs player.

Vertonghen from what I hear us excellent but so long as you have G*llas in that back line you are always going to concede goals.

You are not creating enough clear cut chances and the fitness side of your game is being overlooked. It's nothing to worry about yet but may well be soon

Van der Vaart gave the penalty away I think, mostly because we were out of shape as Sandro was off after having treatment (the daftest rule in the book). VdV is an excellent player but defence is not his strong point (your goal at WHL last season was another example).

Actually on Ba's goal, Gallas got to almost the perfect position (given that Walker had headed clear into an empty space) and Ba found the tiny space left at the far post with a curler. If he had been anywhere near as clinical when given free space by your defence it would have been 2-2 today

 

[District Line]

Van der Vaart gave the penalty away I think, mostly because we were out of shape as Sandro was off after having treatment (the daftest rule in the book). VdV is an excellent player but defence is not his strong point (your goal at WHL last season was another example).

Actually on Ba's goal, Gallas got to almost the perfect position (given that Walker had headed clear into an empty space) and Ba found the tiny space left at the far post with a curler. If he had been anywhere near as clinical when given free space by your defence it would have been 2-2 today

No it wouldn't. Because we can actually defend. Ba had one good chance in the whole game which was down to us taking our foot off the gas and ignores the several chances we missed.

Newcastle beat you without basically having to break a sweat. AVB needs to find a system/personnel that can help you keep clean sheets because at present you look like conceding in every game, something which couldn't have been said under previous management. That said I still feel you cannot be judged until Kaboul comes back to the fore. Its always difficult to keep clean sheets without a settled backline

 

[Boss]

We certainly need someone who can pass like Modric in the middle of the 3 in the 4231. That could be Sig or a new signing. Any pass from there with a pressing system has a good chance of creating a goal.

Sig is already at the club, unless I imagined that, so if you're stating we need a player to make a pass like Modric (which is clear as day to all) and then you mention "the tactics/squad aren't to blame" surely you must understand if a manager plays 4-2-3-1 without the correct link up between midfield and attack, then it is his tactics to blame, especially if he has a player on the bench such as Sig.

 

[PowerSpurs]

Sig is already at the club, unless I imagined that, so if you're stating we need a player to make a pass like Modric (which is clear as day to all) and then you mention "the tactics/squad aren't to blame" surely you must understand if a manager plays 4-2-3-1 without the correct link up between midfield and attack, then it is his tactics to blame, especially if he has a player on the bench such as Sig.

He tried VdV there and we made about 20 chances in the game, I think, but wasted a lot of them. I would play Bale, VdV and Sig but I think AVB would prefer Bale, Sig and someone like Sturridge/Willian and thinks Lennon is the closest thing we have. The fact that Defoe can't play in such a position is all you need to know about his value to us. AVB may well have got this call wrong today but judging him on a couple of games is crazy.

 

[NSIS]

I was no great fan of AVB. I have, and still do, question the wisdom of his appointment. Having said that, I was not sad to see Harry go, either. in short, we have to give the guy a chance to try and impose his ideas on the squad. But yes, playing Defoe as a lone striker - not his brightest strategy. I'll be interested to see if he tries that one again. We badly need another striker, and a Modric replacement. Fingers crossed for the next week!..

 

[PowerSpurs]

No it wouldn't. Because we can actually defend. Ba had one good chance in the whole game which was down to us taking our foot off the gas and ignores the several chances we missed.

You certainly defend better than us most of the time and I think this has an intimidatory effect too: when opposition players get a good chance from a mistake they tend to panic. I don't think Ba would have scored from exactly the same position against you for this reason. It will take a while for us to build such a reputation but a switch to 4231 is part of the way to do it.

 

[District Line]

You certainly defend better than us most of the time and I think this has an intimidatory effect too: when opposition players get a good chance from a mistake they tend to panic. I don't think Ba would have scored from exactly the same position against you for this reason. It will take a while for us to build such a reputation but a switch to 4231 is part of the way to do it.

Agree with that I also think playing at home is an advantage as well.

Ba was extremely unlucky against us v SJP last season

 

[superal]

But yes, playing Defoe as a lone striker - not his brightest strategy.

With Ade only joining recently what choice did he have?

 

[PowerSpurs]

I was no great fan of AVB. I have, and still do, question the wisdom of his appointment. Having said that, I was not sad to see Harry go, either. in short, we have to give the guy a chance to try and impose his ideas on the squad. But yes, playing Defoe as a lone striker - not his brightest strategy. I'll be interested to see if he tries that one again. We badly need another striker, and a Modric replacement. Fingers crossed for the next week!..

It's a long term strategy - he is trying to make our squad comfortable with 4231 and needs to stick to it (as a starting system) whatever the personnel. My stream broke today, so I don't know what happened when Ade/Sig/Jenas came on. I'm guessing we played 4411 which is why WBA did so much better at the end.

 

[Boss]

He tried VdV there and we made about 20 chances in the game, I think, but wasted a lot of them. I would play Bale, VdV and Sig but I think AVB would prefer Bale, Sig and someone like Sturridge/Willian and thinks Lennon is the closest thing we have. The fact that Defoe can't play in such a position is all you need to know about his value to us. AVB may well have got this call wrong today but judging him on a couple of games is crazy.

I'm not judging him on two games, as I posted an article about his high line pre season and have never liked his methods while at Chelsea, which is why I'm not going with this "lets write off a season".

20 chances? in which game? did we create any clear cut chances against west brom and I mean clear cut, I watched most of the game and tbh it seemed a struggle to get a clear shot on goal.

yes we caused some panic in the west brom defence but overall it was lacking in creativity.

As for Defoe, we all know he can't work in this system, yet avb was happy to start the season with kane, defoe and wait for Ade, so he has to understand thats his call, plus its his call to play two holding players at home against west brom.

Don't get me wrong, am not calling him to be sacked, its more a complete underwhelmed and excitement by him as our manager and I've yet to see any evidence his system works and when I mean his system, I mean avb managing that system in this league.

Am aware swansea use a high line, but that system has been in place since martinez was manager and its been used, coached and implement over years, with various managers at various levels.

Avb has to get results and change the way we play, I don't believe he is up to the task.