Camelot will surely continue into his 4year old season though. It would be very poorly timed to retire him at the same time as Frankel plus they are trying to establish a son of Montjeu at stud in Pour Moi. I agree they might get hold of the triple crown and then farm weak group one's until the end of next season because winning the triple crown for the first time in ages makes him a unique breeding prospect. Also SYT is off to Australia so does his rep here really matter?
The Aidan O Brien Appreciation thread
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Look at some of the horses 
Irish Guineas with Roderic O'Connor
Irish Derby with Frozen Fire
Phoenix Stakes with Alfred Noble
Critérium de Saint-Cloud with Recital
1,000 Guineas with Homecoming Queen
Fillies Mile with Listen
Middle Park with Crusade
BC J Turf with Wrote
BC Marathon with Man Of Iron 
LEGEND !!!!
Irish Guineas with Roderic O'Connor
Irish Derby with Frozen Fire
Phoenix Stakes with Alfred Noble
Critérium de Saint-Cloud with Recital
1,000 Guineas with Homecoming Queen
Fillies Mile with Listen
Middle Park with Crusade
BC J Turf with Wrote
BC Marathon with Man Of Iron
LEGEND !!!!
I think without doubt AOB is the top trainer of the last 15 years and well on the way to emulating his namesake within the history of racing. Interestingly he was actually once almost universally loved by us racegoers when Coolmore came along and broke the Godolphin monopoly of the sales rings as it was good to see competition in the sales ring and so in the races.
On the other side of the coin the reason i feel he has dropped in somes estimation is two fold, firstly he's towing of the Coolmore spin in interviews as when someone says something you know they do not believe is true you lose some respect, and he does come out with quite some stuff. The second is a more recent one and it was the appointing of young Joseph to stable jockey as although it goes on everywhere people tend not to like it. It must be recognised by even young Josephs biggest fan that he would never ever have got that job on merit alone. This said i actually think he's a good jockey for his age and experiance and will improve but he should be their second or third jockey i feel which would also be fairer on him as well.
In defence of AOB in interviews he actually comes across as a decent and respectful man which some trainers do not, some seem to have a touch of arrogance about them where as he does not, but sadly attempts spin which is easily seen through.
Will Camelot be the best he's ever had but also never be allowed to run beyond he's age group? will people buy that ? of course not.
On the other side of the coin the reason i feel he has dropped in somes estimation is two fold, firstly he's towing of the Coolmore spin in interviews as when someone says something you know they do not believe is true you lose some respect, and he does come out with quite some stuff. The second is a more recent one and it was the appointing of young Joseph to stable jockey as although it goes on everywhere people tend not to like it. It must be recognised by even young Josephs biggest fan that he would never ever have got that job on merit alone. This said i actually think he's a good jockey for his age and experiance and will improve but he should be their second or third jockey i feel which would also be fairer on him as well.
In defence of AOB in interviews he actually comes across as a decent and respectful man which some trainers do not, some seem to have a touch of arrogance about them where as he does not, but sadly attempts spin which is easily seen through.
Will Camelot be the best he's ever had but also never be allowed to run beyond he's age group? will people buy that ? of course not.
Some interesting points guys.
I remember when John Oxx trained STS and a sizeable contingent on here was urging him to support the Leger and go for the triple crown.
When AO'B does the same it perceived he's avoiding the 4-y-o's.Impossible to keep anyone never mind everyone happy.
I remember when John Oxx trained STS and a sizeable contingent on here was urging him to support the Leger and go for the triple crown.
When AO'B does the same it perceived he's avoiding the 4-y-o's.Impossible to keep anyone never mind everyone happy.
QM you mentioned a lot of ex Coolmore stock running in Asia and SA.
The reason for this is quite simple.When you have a blood line nailed down you can afford to sell descendands,in fact it is sensible to do so.
The main patron is from the Maktoum family.
He isn't an issue from Sheikh Mohammeds massive litter from various females but actually his cousin.
Obviously a better judge than the despot.
The reason for this is quite simple.When you have a blood line nailed down you can afford to sell descendands,in fact it is sensible to do so.
The main patron is from the Maktoum family.
He isn't an issue from Sheikh Mohammeds massive litter from various females but actually his cousin.
Obviously a better judge than the despot.
I think Dex that people would have been saying the same about sea the stars but by the time of the Leger/Arc question he had already taken on and beat the older generation. I think people would be cheering on the triple crown attempt of Camelot if by the time of the race he had run in either the Eclispse, King George or Juddmonte which are all obvious races for a prodigous 3 year old possibly touted as the best you have ever had.
As the other two races have come and gone it would actually be hard to see a reason for not running in the Juddmonte as it would fall very well between The Irish Derby and St leger and especially as So You Think is on his way back to home. Now obviously we don't know if the others will be there but imagine Frankel, Nathaniel, and Camelot lining up over 10f in the Juddmonte, that is mouth watering and any horse that comes out on top in that battle does not need talking up as that sort of form cannot be argued with by anyone. I think AOB will give it a miss but i think John Gosden will let his horse take his chance before another crack at the Arc.
As the other two races have come and gone it would actually be hard to see a reason for not running in the Juddmonte as it would fall very well between The Irish Derby and St leger and especially as So You Think is on his way back to home. Now obviously we don't know if the others will be there but imagine Frankel, Nathaniel, and Camelot lining up over 10f in the Juddmonte, that is mouth watering and any horse that comes out on top in that battle does not need talking up as that sort of form cannot be argued with by anyone. I think AOB will give it a miss but i think John Gosden will let his horse take his chance before another crack at the Arc.
Agreed Blue.STS had proved his mettle by mid Summer.Camelot hasn't imo.
It is a viable option for Camelot although The Knavesmire is unlikely to play to his strengths.
Would be a great spectacle and someone needs to challenge the great one.
It would seem Coolmore don't fancy locking horns with Frankel after Excelebration was so easily dismissed and Juddmonte are treading a very tactical route with their marvel.
One suspects both want to remain unbaten come season's end.
Camelot will dodge this just as Frankel dodged the Eclipse to prove what he has already proved several times over at Goodwood.
Certainly don't blame Cecil.We saw after Bated Breaths withdrawal from the July Cup that the Juddmonte hierarchy,and not their trainers,determine targets which is ultimately fair enough since they will manage the stud careers and pay the bills.
It is a viable option for Camelot although The Knavesmire is unlikely to play to his strengths.
Would be a great spectacle and someone needs to challenge the great one.
It would seem Coolmore don't fancy locking horns with Frankel after Excelebration was so easily dismissed and Juddmonte are treading a very tactical route with their marvel.
One suspects both want to remain unbaten come season's end.
Camelot will dodge this just as Frankel dodged the Eclipse to prove what he has already proved several times over at Goodwood.
Certainly don't blame Cecil.We saw after Bated Breaths withdrawal from the July Cup that the Juddmonte hierarchy,and not their trainers,determine targets which is ultimately fair enough since they will manage the stud careers and pay the bills.
This year 45 wins from 247 runners 18.2% very average for what he has at his disposal.
Most other to trainers at the top end achieve similar or better and dont have anywhere near the ammunition he has.
He makes poor use of what hes got....case and point yesterday at the Curragh 0 from 10!
Most other to trainers at the top end achieve similar or better and dont have anywhere near the ammunition he has.
He makes poor use of what hes got....case and point yesterday at the Curragh 0 from 10!
So because he had one poor day at the Curragh he's a poor trainer?
How many times does he have multiple entrants in the same race? Your stats are lazy and not reflective of the true performance.
How many times does he have multiple entrants in the same race? Your stats are lazy and not reflective of the true performance.
Not that lazy to notice the steady decline in his strike rate over the last 5 years, at a time of even more investment.
Aiden was also Champion Jump trainer in Ireland 5 years in a row and won 3 champion hurdles with Istabraq
You've got one stat that totally ignores the presence of multiple runners in single races so of course that's misleading.
One thing I like about AOB is that he gets his 2yos out and running. With some Newmarket trainers looking for their first 2yo of the season is like looking for the first cuckoo. It always amazed me that George Washington made his debut over 5f at the Guineas meeting (and he was well beaten). The object of thoroughbred horses is to run and O'Brien gets them out and running.
I'm not getting involved in this debate as it is actually entitled "The Aidan O Brien Appreciation thread".
However, in answer to the highlighted comment Bustino, I would just make a general point. I think the horse's welfare is the most important which may conflict with getting them out and running. A horse is far from mature at 2 and racing them at full pelt at 2 could cause long term damage and this is possibly why so many top winning colts are not risked beyond 3years against horses that have been brought on more considerately.
In this particular instance this is not a dig at AOB but a general point to suggest that the highlighted statement is not necessarily a point in his favour.
How many races has he won because of having multiple entries though? Homecoming Queen in the guineas for example, was hardly the stables no.1! You cant just use the stats one way!
Ron
I'm not advocating immature horses being sent to the track, you've missed my point totally. What I cannot understand is a breed that sees far too many horses not seeing the racetrack until half their flat racing life is over. And this is happening far more these days. When did Stoute last have a 2yo runner at Royal Ascot? Trainers like Murless and Hern often had 2yos at the races that early. Hannon is similar to AOB in that they get their horses out. So I think it is a point in both their favours. They know more about horses than you and me and they won't be putting horses out who are not ready to run.
Another point; I listened to an excellent talk by an equine vet who would very much agree with the point I was making. I am of the opinion that either trainers or certain breeders are following policies that mean the horse is not doing what it should.
I also totally disagree with your point about 3yos not being asked to race after 3 because they wouldn't do so well against horses that are brought along more slowly. The reason they don't is money.
I'm not advocating immature horses being sent to the track, you've missed my point totally. What I cannot understand is a breed that sees far too many horses not seeing the racetrack until half their flat racing life is over. And this is happening far more these days. When did Stoute last have a 2yo runner at Royal Ascot? Trainers like Murless and Hern often had 2yos at the races that early. Hannon is similar to AOB in that they get their horses out. So I think it is a point in both their favours. They know more about horses than you and me and they won't be putting horses out who are not ready to run.
Another point; I listened to an excellent talk by an equine vet who would very much agree with the point I was making. I am of the opinion that either trainers or certain breeders are following policies that mean the horse is not doing what it should.
I also totally disagree with your point about 3yos not being asked to race after 3 because they wouldn't do so well against horses that are brought along more slowly. The reason they don't is money.
That's a fair point Brough. Maybe I wasn't looking at that argument from both sides but i still think the point remains that if you have multiple horses running in races your winning percentage will not reflect the fact that you have had multiple runners and the inevitable losers. There's been plenty of races where he's had three or four runners in big, big races and had the 1/2/3 or the 2/3/4/5. This is an incredible training performance but would show as several losing runners.
For instance just from the Derby in 2000's:
2002 with High Chaparral and Hawk Wing first and second
2003 2nd and 5th
2006 - 3rd less than a length with Dylan Thomas
2007 - 2nd and 5th
2009 - 6 of the first 10 home including the 2nd,3rd,4th, 5th and 7th.
2010 - 2nd, 4th and 5th
2011 - 2nd, 4th and 6th
2012 - 1st and 3rd
So in 2000's he's had the winner twice which is very good by anyone's standards but he would hope for more I presume. However, if you dig a little deeper he's also had the second 6 times and the third 3 times not to mention the fourth and fifth place finishers. That's just from one race and that surely does the job of explaining the reason why I think using his win percentage as a stick with which to beat him is wide of the mark.
For instance just from the Derby in 2000's:
2002 with High Chaparral and Hawk Wing first and second
2003 2nd and 5th
2006 - 3rd less than a length with Dylan Thomas
2007 - 2nd and 5th
2009 - 6 of the first 10 home including the 2nd,3rd,4th, 5th and 7th.
2010 - 2nd, 4th and 5th
2011 - 2nd, 4th and 6th
2012 - 1st and 3rd
So in 2000's he's had the winner twice which is very good by anyone's standards but he would hope for more I presume. However, if you dig a little deeper he's also had the second 6 times and the third 3 times not to mention the fourth and fifth place finishers. That's just from one race and that surely does the job of explaining the reason why I think using his win percentage as a stick with which to beat him is wide of the mark.
Your having a laugh its quite simple winners over runners = your winning percentage...its got no bearing whether they are in the same race or not. His strike rate is declining over the past 5 years. He is not an exceptional trainer he is below average for what he has at his disposal. This is borne out in the numbers look them up...
Are you for real? It has no bearing on the stat whether a trainer runs one horse in each race or multiple? That is possibly the biggest load of tripe i've read on here. How can you not understand that if a trainer has multiple horses in one race he will have losers which will negatively impact upon his winning percentage?
I'm gobsmacked and will leave this here because i don't want to have an argument with anyone.
Gobsmacked.
Your totally wrong on this one I'm afraid its not a complex equation. It doesn't matter whether he has multiple runners in a race.
Many trainers have more than one runner in a race there is nothing to be factored in to a strike rate equation as a consequence of this.. as you give yourself equally a better chance of winning the race as you do not winning it. If you have 1 runner in each of 30 races or 2 runners in 15 of these races the maths is the same...winners over runners.
However the real issue is the falling strike rate of AOB and the reasons behind this ?
Many trainers have more than one runner in a race there is nothing to be factored in to a strike rate equation as a consequence of this.. as you give yourself equally a better chance of winning the race as you do not winning it. If you have 1 runner in each of 30 races or 2 runners in 15 of these races the maths is the same...winners over runners.
However the real issue is the falling strike rate of AOB and the reasons behind this ?