Creationism

[6776thebest]

I haven't read all of the posts on this thread but one that caught my eye was Maltese Mick's (?) re telling his children to make their own minds up for themselves when adults. Excellent parenting. ref N Ireland....a child is not a Catholic or Protestant child, but a child of Catholic or Protestant parents. If individuals want to believe in whatever then fair enough. Just don't ram it down children's throats nor anyone else's. Nor should the State support any form of religion, especially via the huge amounts of cash they receive via charitable status and grants. And the C of E should be disestablished.

I could go on forever but profer these quotes for consideration....

A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does not need a regretful hankering after the past, or a fettering of the free intelligence by the words uttered long ago by ignorant men. Betrand Russell

Dogma is the death of the intellect
Reality is that which cannot be defined out of existence

Christopher Hitchens..... “what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence”.

Compare: a pharmaceutical company tells us that we are all born with a disease that requires that we buy their product all our lives long, and that if we do it will cure us after death.

 

[RebelBhoy]

Perhaps you should read the rest of it then and see who is spoiling for a fight with 'religious zeal'

 

[Mick]

I haven't read all of the posts on this thread but one that caught my eye was Maltese Mick's (?) re telling his children to make their own minds up for themselves when adults. Excellent parenting. ref N Ireland....a child is not a Catholic or Protestant child, but a child of Catholic or Protestant parents. If individuals want to believe in whatever then fair enough. Just don't ram it down children's throats nor anyone else's. Nor should the State support any form of religion, especially via the huge amounts of cash they receive via charitable status and grants. And the C of E should be disestablished.

I could go on forever but profer these quotes for consideration....

A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does not need a regretful hankering after the past, or a fettering of the free intelligence by the words uttered long ago by ignorant men. Betrand Russell

Dogma is the death of the intellect
Reality is that which cannot be defined out of existence

Christopher Hitchens..... “what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence”.

Compare: a pharmaceutical company tells us that we are all born with a disease that requires that we buy their product all our lives long, and that if we do it will cure us after death.

I watched that Channel 4 documentary called 'Civilization' the other night, Channel 4 at it's very best when they don't sop to the reality tv loving housewives.

Anyway one of the points that was under consideration was why Christianity was in serious decline in Europe yet flourishing in North America, despite having very similar economic and political models while still having generally derived European attitudes.

They made the suggestion that the reason why indeed Christianity was flourishing in North America was because the Americans separated the institutions of Church and State, therefore had no officially recognised religion. In doing this they pitted all the different denominations of churches against each other, forcing them on to the streets to fight for the undecided souls. Whereas the Church of England when faced with a state monopoly, like any state monopoly, hasn't really bothered to try and get the word out there, because it doesn't need to - it's the official state church and if you are English then you need to go there.

So in summary I'm not sure if we really should separate church and state if it leads us to a more American model

 

[6776thebest]

Oh......sod the zealots........3 more points tonight and we're nearly at the pearly gates!

I did pray in 67 at Wembley, two nil down to WBA at half time and yes, at the end of 90 mins I was a believer! believed next season aswell as we got to the first div......winning 2-1 at Villa last game of the season. Where did the big man go the next season I asked myself following instant relegation. funny how other fans must pray for their teams too, I thought. so that was that!

Makes me laugh seeing the players make the sign of the cross when they play.....all superstitious nonsense but hey ho.

 

[6776thebest]

Shame I missed that MM. Yes, good point. Their constitution though was written a while back and lets face it the early settlers were a varied bunch of persectued religious types discriminated against in the Old World. Religion in the Usa is treated like business. Interpretation of the constitution is argued about re the right to bear arms....yes in the 17th and 18th centuries against the Brits....yet it's used by the gun industry and right wingers as their "GOD" given right. Still, at least they have a constitution!

People both sides of the pond aren't really honest when asked about their faith. The number of believers is greatly exaggerated. the believers are though by their very nature evangelical.....they have to be if they truly believe.

Teaching creationism over and above science and reason is appalling. All faith schools should have their funding stopped.

 

[6776thebest]

Oh, and for anyone who is interested, if it hasn't already been mentioned, look up Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris on Youtube clips. Hitchens is spectacularly erudite and eloquent, truly one of the foremost journalists and intellects of our time.

 

[Mick]

Oh, and for anyone who is interested, if it hasn't already been mentioned, look up Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris on Youtube clips. Hitchens is spectacularly erudite and eloquent, truly one of the foremost journalists and intellects of our time.

I was trying to push Jerseymackem towards reading 'God is not great' and of course the 'The God Delusion'. I haven't actually read any of Harris' books yet.

 

[6776thebest]

read the end of faith by Harris, a very good read. Have you seen the clip on youtube "the four horsemen"...... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqVNz7kdvd8.......

Loved Hitchens channel 4 (?) progs on "the missionary position mother teresa" and his demonsing of the killing agent that was Henry Kissinger.

 

[Mick]

read the end of faith by Harris, a very good read. Have you seen the clip on youtube "the four horsemen"...... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqVNz7kdvd8.......

Loved Hitchens channel 4 (?) progs on "the missionary position mother teresa" and his demonsing of the killing agent that was Henry Kissinger.

he hates Teresa all right funny that since my upbringing would have made it an absolute sacrilege to question her. Must download the documentaries, don't watch a lot of tv to be honest - usually after I go to bed or HBO shows I download.

 

[Shameless]

You guys are a real hoot.

**** at arguing, but comedy geniuses

You are no hoot and have no comic talent that I can judge you on
I also cannot judge your arguing skill as you have not displayed any - this makes you a hypocrite.

(reply if you wish, I won't - at least not until you stop being boring)

 

[RebelBhoy]

I never claimed to be funny

Hypocrite?

I have been consistent with my point.
Failure to see that is your problem.

 

[jerseymackem]

I was trying to push Jerseymackem towards reading 'God is not great' and of course the 'The God Delusion'. I haven't actually read any of Harris' books yet.

I would quite like to read them, to get a perspective on the main arguments for atheism.

About faith schools, it is the decision of the parents whether to allow their children to go there or not, nobody is forcing anyone either way. I don't think there's anything wrong with parents teaching their children what they believe, one of the Christian marriage vows is to teach your faith to your children (or words to that effect)

 

[Erik]

I would quite like to read them, to get a perspective on the main arguments for atheism

Sorry, what? How do you 'argue' that you aren't going to accept God when there is no evidence for His existence? See the Hitchens quote in 6776's post:
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence"
There IS no argument.

About faith schools, it is the decision of the parents whether to allow their children to go there or not, nobody is forcing anyone either way. I don't think there's anything wrong with parents teaching their children what they believe, one of the Christian marriage vows is to teach your faith to your children (or words to that effect)

Yes, there is, especially when it's baseless and unfounded bull****. The worst offenders are those who posit Creationism as a viable explanation for the beginning of the Universe, the Earth and of life, specifically when they claim it is a Scientific Theory.

NB: And those who say Jesus' existence has been proven.

 

[jerseymackem]

NB: And those who say Jesus' existence has been proven.

We've been over this. His existence as a historical figure has been pretty much proven as far as Caesar or Genghis Khan, but it is his DIVINITY that people argue over.

 

[Erik]

We've been over this.

And the 'evidence' I asked you and RebelBhoy for was non-existent. Where is it?

His existence as a historical figure has been pretty much proven as far as Caesar or Genghis Khan

Er, no. See above - where is the evidence of his existence?

it is his DIVINITY that people argue over

Educated people don't even argue about that crap, it's absolutely ridiculous.

 

[RebelBhoy]

And the 'evidence' I asked you and RebelBhoy for was non-existent. Where is it?

there is loads of evidence. As shown in this thread. Just because there isn't the contemporary evidence you seek (which as I have demonstrated is unlikely anyway) doesn't mean that there isn't evidence

Educated people don't even argue about that crap, it's absolutely ridiculous.

Charles Darwin argued about it....he came up with the theory of the origin of the species. You are implying he was not educated.

It therefore follows that the theory of evolution came from an uneducated man.....

Well done you.

 

[Erik]

there is loads of evidence. As shown in this thread. Just because there isn't the contemporary evidence you seek (which as I have demonstrated is unlikely anyway) doesn't mean that there isn't evidence

No, you gave an extremely ******ed and contrived excuse regarding the lack of contemporary evidence. The evidence you gave, I refuted. YOU go back and take a look.

Charles Darwin argued about it....he came up with the theory of the origin of the species. You are implying he was not educated.

It therefore follows that the theory of evolution came from an uneducated man.....

Well done you.

Sorry, what? What the **** are you talking about? This is the 21st Century moron, I wouldn't call Newton, Hooke, Darwin, etc 'uneducated' would I. They lived in an era when there was NO other explanation for the origins of the universe or of life, nor any available evidence that evolution occurred. I meant in the present day, when even a child can tell you thay magic zombies are not real - you know that's what I meant. So a great big and a 'well done' from me.

 

[RebelBhoy]

it was your argument. Not mine.

either make it coherently or shut the **** up.

 

[Erik]

it was your argument. Not mine.

either make it coherently or shut the **** up.

I apologise RebelBhoy, I forgot you were such a pedantic **** you'd post the standard ****ty reply, for no reason other than arguing for the sake of it.

 

[RebelBhoy]

Shame the same can't be said of you.

As opposed to this constructive critique?

You were the one spoiling for an argument. Not me.