Who would go through if......

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devonFRATTONiser

devonFRATTONiser

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Jan 25, 2011
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What method would decide who goes through if sides have identical records? I remember in the World Cup Italia'90 the Republic of Ireland and Holland finished equal in every way and had to draw lots to see who was placed 2nd and who 3rd in their group. In that situation the 3rd placed team went through to the 2nd round as there were only 24 countries taking part instead of the 32 nowadays.

But what about this scenario?

England beat Sweden 2-1, while France and Ukraine draw 1-1.
England and Ukraine draw 1-1 and France beat Sweden 2-1

England, France and Ukraine would have identical records. So how would it be decided who is placed 1st, who is 2nd and who goes home?

Surely not by drawing lots!?

Any ideas
 
The highest seeded team goes through as per the rules. (thats from the champions league those rules but I'm quite certain it'd be the same for the Euros and the World Cup) but I'm not sure whether the hosts would go through just because they are hosts or not. It may be the hosts get priority and then the highest seeded team
 
Josh-LUFC said:
The highest seeded team goes through as per the rules. (thats from the champions league those rules but I'm quite certain it'd be the same for the Euros and the World Cup) but I'm not sure whether the hosts would go through just because they are hosts or not. It may be the hosts get priority and then the highest seeded team
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Is that really the rule? If so thats extraordinary. Surely it should be based in some manner or means on what has happened at the tournament?! Like for example, if a number of teams really are identically placed (goals scored, conceded and points) putting through the team with the least bookings/sendings off, Pretty flimsy I know but at least in some way related to goings on at the tournament itself. To base a team progressing over another on things that were the case before a ball had been kicked in he euros would be incredibly unfair.

The alternative would be some sort of mini playoffs but practically i dont think that would be possible. Everybody meet up for a penalty competition? :P
 
I suppose they could do that game they used to do on socer-am. Put a small goal with an open hoop in it some-where and see how many balls you can put through the hoop in 1 minute. Any-thing's better than drawing lots.


On a more sensible note; in this day and age where 'fair play' seems to be a watch-word, placing teams in disciplinary order is just about feasible.
 
devonFRATTONiser said:
I suppose they could do that game they used to do on socer-am. Put a small goal with an open hoop in it some-where and see how many balls you can put through the hoop in 1 minute. Any-thing's better than drawing lots.
Click to expand...

Or just do a crossbar challenge?
 
Although, playing devil's advocate on my own idea here (!!!) that is in many ways putting even more pressure on referees.

Picture the scenario - England lose out on a place in the quarter finals to france on the basis of having one more booking than them following the absolute fiasco last night....... I doubt nicola rizzoli would visit england any time soon....
 
sweet fa said:
Is that really the rule? If so thats extraordinary. Surely it should be based in some manner or means on what has happened at the tournament?! Like for example, if a number of teams really are identically placed (goals scored, conceded and points) putting through the team with the least bookings/sendings off, Pretty flimsy I know but at least in some way related to goings on at the tournament itself. To base a team progressing over another on things that were the case before a ball had been kicked in he euros would be incredibly unfair.

The alternative would be some sort of mini playoffs but practically i dont think that would be possible. Everybody meet up for a penalty competition? :P
Click to expand...

I am pretty sure thats the case, remember reading about it about 5 years back. If everything is even you really have to go somewhere to make a decision, why not there? It seems unfair but something has to settle it
 
Josh-LUFC said:
I am pretty sure thats the case, remember reading about it about 5 years back. If everything is even you really have to go somewhere to make a decision, why not there? It seems unfair but something has to settle it
Click to expand...

I take your point - I would almost say do it the opposite way if anything though. If the away goal is used in the champions league as a means of attmepting to address the imbalance caused by one team playing home in the second leg, surely this would serve a similar purpose - you got the 'easier' draw by being seeded, so we will give the pass to the team who did harder in a 'more difficult' group on paper.

I can see the flaws in that even as I type it - but I still think its fairer to base it in some way on what has happened at the tournament.

But if, as you say it is, what you said is the rule then fair enough, it is what it is and teams will have to bare that in mind going into the final round of fixtures.
 
devonFRATTONiser said:
What method would decide who goes through if sides have identical records? I remember in the World Cup Italia'90 the Republic of Ireland and Holland finished equal in every way and had to draw lots to see who was placed 2nd and who 3rd in their group. In that situation the 3rd placed team went through to the 2nd round as there were only 24 countries taking part instead of the 32 nowadays.

But what about this scenario?

England beat Sweden 2-1, while France and Ukraine draw 1-1.
England and Ukraine draw 1-1 and France beat Sweden 2-1

England, France and Ukraine would have identical records. So how would it be decided who is placed 1st, who is 2nd and who goes home?

Surely not by drawing lots!?

Any ideas
Click to expand...

Well I think we can rule out Sweden going through :D
 
Sorry to be boring:

Equality of points after the group matches
8.07
If two or more teams are equal on points on completion of the group matches, the
following criteria are applied, in the order given; to determine the rankings:
a) higher number of points obtained in the matches among the teams in question;
b) superior goal difference in the matches among the teams in question (if more
than two teams finish equal on points);
c) higher number of goals scored in the matches among the teams in question (if
more than two teams finish equal on points);
d) superior goal difference in all the group matches;
e) higher number of goals scored in all the group matches;
f) position in the UEFA national team coefficient ranking system (see Annex I,
paragraph 1.2.2);
g) fair play conduct of the teams (final tournament);
h) drawing of lots.

8.08
If two teams which have the same number of points, the same number of goals
scored and conceded play their last group match against each other and are still
equal at the end of that match, the ranking of the two teams in question is
determined by kicks from the penalty mark (Article 16), provided no other teams
within the group have the same number of points on completion of all group
matches. Should more than two teams have the same number of points, the criteria
listed under paragraph 8.07 apply.
Click to expand...

The co-efficients mentioned as regards ranking is based upon results in Euro 2008, SA 2010 Finals and Euro 2012 Qualification.

Full details - http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/Regulations/uefa/Others/91/48/36/914836_DOWNLOAD.pdf
 
HamburgSpur said:
Sorry to be boring:



The co-efficients mentioned as regards ranking is based upon results in Euro 2008, SA 2010 Finals and Euro 2012 Qualification.

Full details - http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/Regulations/uefa/Others/91/48/36/914836_DOWNLOAD.pdf
Click to expand...

Euro 2008
France - Group Stage
England - DNQ
Ukraine - DNQ

World Cup 2010
France - Group Stage
England - last 16
Ukraine - DNQ

Euro 2012 qualifiers
France - Group winners; Pld.10 W.6 D.3 L.1
England - Group winners; Pld.8 W.5 D.3 L.0
Ukraine - Co-Hosts


From that I think there's little doubt that Ukraine would be placed 3rd and eliminated - cue riots on the streets!
England or France placed 1st? - Answers on a postcard please!
 
HamburgSpur said:
The co-efficients mentioned as regards ranking is based upon results in Euro 2008, SA 2010 Finals and Euro 2012 Qualification.
Click to expand...

Re-read it, the results from Euro 2008 and SA 2010 include qualifiers and then it gets even more complicated as there are weighting factors for the older tournaments so the results more accurately reflect current form.
 
The rules are a bit different in FIFA competitions and for some complicated reason, if Spain and Croatia draw 2-2 (or 3-3, 4-4 etc) next week, they both automatically qualify, even though Italy could have a better points and goal difference than both of them.
 
devonFRATTONiser said:
What method would decide who goes through if sides have identical records? I remember in the World Cup Italia'90 the Republic of Ireland and Holland finished equal in every way and had to draw lots to see who was placed 2nd and who 3rd in their group. In that situation the 3rd placed team went through to the 2nd round as there were only 24 countries taking part instead of the 32 nowadays.

But what about this scenario?

England beat Sweden 2-1, while France and Ukraine draw 1-1.
England and Ukraine draw 1-1 and France beat Sweden 2-1

England, France and Ukraine would have identical records. So how would it be decided who is placed 1st, who is 2nd and who goes home?

Surely not by drawing lots!?

Any ideas
Click to expand...

The only fair way to do it would be to go by alphabetical order. Although that rule should never be applied in the Football League.
 
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