I do indeed. Can you provide me with the reference you are talking about? And as to why you think it to be relevant?
Did you not have anything else to say in response to my points?
Creationism
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I do indeed. Can you provide me with the reference you are talking about? And as to why you think it to be relevant?
Did you not have anything else to say in response to my points?
IT is relevant as the Church is and always has been an organised way of ripping off people.
A holy Mafia if you like!
From the very beginnings to the present day its very existence has been based on greed and subjugation.
In Matthew 6:6
Christ states, "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."
Cue posts listing contradictions to the above, hm? which one to believe?
Oh I know the one that suits my beliefs.
Why not rename The Bible to........
The Book of Contradictions?
That book never made the final edit.
1 Corinthians 11:26 clearly speaks of a collective action.
You can still have a personal relationship with God as part of a collective.
the contradictions can be explained. I recently had an audit at work. i wrote a whole load of manuals and they wanted to see whether what i was doing was the same as what I had written. Sure I cut few corners here and there but the manual was fine.
treat the bible in the same way.
1 Corinthians 11:26 clearly speaks of a collective action.
You can still have a personal relationship with God as part of a collective.
the contradictions can be explained. I recently had an audit at work. i wrote a whole load of manuals and they wanted to see whether what i was doing was the same as what I had written. Sure I cut few corners here and there but the manual was fine.
treat the bible in the same way.
IT is relevant as the Church is and always has been an organised way of ripping off people.
A holy Mafia if you like!
From the very beginnings to the present day its very existence has been based on greed and subjugation.
In Matthew 6:6
Christ states, "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."
Cue posts listing contradictions to the above, hm? which one to believe?
Oh I know the one that suits my beliefs.
Why not rename The Bible to........
The Book of Contradictions?
You've taken the verse entirely out of context which people often do when trying to make a point which the Bible itself does not make.
The verse preceeding it says: And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.
The point of this passage is quite clear when read in context: don't pray (or do good deeds) in order to brag about them, or to show off to humans. That's what the lawmakers of the time were doing. Something Jesus clearly wasn't keen on. It's the goodness of your heart that counts, not how many people witness your good deed. No contradictions, you just didn't read the thing!
So why did I use the example above I hear you cry?! I used it in order to show you that the Church DOES do a lot of good in the world and that it's not the bigoted organisation you tried to show it was. Not to float my own boat, I wasn't old enough to take part in the setting up of the charity at the time and as such don't take any creidt for it. I'm not telling you I'm any good, just that are criticising an organisation wrongly. For other examples of goodness I had nothing to do with see Wilberforce as a strating point...
As I have already demonstrated, human nature itself is based upon greed and subjugation which is why humans manipulate any organisation (democracy, relgions, any other belief system you think of), to their own ends. That does not make the belief system in itself inherrently wrong. Care to even try a response to that this time round?
I'm fine with that; I just don't like seeing a list of accusations posted which are clearly simplistic and not true. I won't leave them unchallenged.
The points we are making are we know there are headcases in the world who just love killing.
They are not this all powerful being who in his infinite wisdom allows it.
Or more to the point encourages it!!
God ordered numerous mass murders even going so far as to clearly state to kill the infants too.
(At other times He also ordered everyone else killed apart from the little girls??? WTF's that all about?)
Gotta love his leave no survivors attitude, WTG Big Guy how to bring peace and love to the world.
For all us none believers get yer heads sorted we are in big trouble!
God says he will send to eternal torture all who do not accept Christianity.
If Christians don't believe that are they coming to hell with us?
The only cherry picking gets done by people of a religious bent.
If Creationism is a lie the rest of what God said must be a lie, you can't have it both ways.
(Well you can because you have for 2000 years
)When science is proved wrong it is accepted and more hard work put into newer discoveries.
When anything religious is proved wrong it is twisted and convoluted to different meanings and a lot of burying heads in sand.
The points we are making are we know there are headcases in the world who just love killing.
They are not this all powerful being who in his infinite wisdom allows it.
Or more to the point encourages it!!
God ordered numerous mass murders even going so far as to clearly state to kill the infants too.
(At other times He also ordered everyone else killed apart from the little girls??? WTF's that all about?)
Gotta love his leave no survivors attitude, WTG Big Guy how to bring peace and love to the world.
For all us none believers get yer heads sorted we are in big trouble!
God says he will send to eternal torture all who do not accept Christianity.
If Christians don't believe that are they coming to hell with us?
The only cherry picking gets done by people of a religious bent.
If Creationism is a lie the rest of what God said must be a lie, you can't have it both ways.
(Well you can because you have for 2000 years
When science is proved wrong it is accepted and more hard work put into newer discoveries.
When anything religious is proved wrong it is twisted and convoluted to different meanings and a lot of burying heads in sand.
Where to start! Much as you appear to want to, I don't think you quite have the right to instruct everyone on the only allowed ways to interpret any one text. In this case, the Bible. If (as I do), I find the creation story in Genesis to be quite clearly a metaphor in nature and linguistic styling, then I shall choose to interpret it in that way. Am I allowed to do that? Yes. Oh wait, you've banned that. I'll go and inform all of the scholars of linguistics that you can't quite comprehend that there might just be metaphor involved and as such they should stop believing that to be an option.
As for 'some nutters', you realise that there were more humans killed in the C20th than in all of the centuries before hand put together? As we become more enlightened, and progress further, we're killing more, not less. You can't put it down to a few nutters I'm afraid. Do try again though.
So science works hard to change but relgion is 'twisted and convoluted'. Two phrases to describe the same process; not hard to spot your bias eh? Why not just use the same language, they are both flexible and quite often work in tandem.
I'm glad you've moved on from pretending that the Church in itself is evil and now you're arguing (instead) that the problem of evil and suffering provides a problem when it comes to the existence of God. Good change of argument, your other one was rubbish. Let's presume that you're right and God SHOULD stop everything wrong that ever happens in the world. What happens then? We are all deprived of free will and as such, we don't really exist. We have free will to do what is right or what is wrong. Sadly, many choose to do what is wrong and inflict pain on others. It seems strange to blame God for that. What if sadness no longer existed? Does that not mean that happiness would not longer exist? Is joy not a comparative measure alongside pain? Must you not have one to have the other? I'm happy when QPR win, but only because I'm not used to it. If we (or every team) won every week (guaranteed), it would be a boring life!
As for God condoning violence; I think you will find that the only time this is done is when God has no other choice. Take Sodom and Gomorrah, the most cited example. The background to the violence is that the men of Sodom and Gomorrah try to rape the two men visiting Lot's house. The last in a long line of wrongs that those men committed. Now God's not cool with rape and so he gets angry. Initially God (in the story, even if you don't believe it), says he will save the city if there are 50 good people living there. 50 are not found. He is negotiated down to 10. 10 are not found. So the only good citizens leave and the rest perish. It may seem harsh at first, but consider this. It is made very clear that a) those remaining are evil and b) all those who are not evil and allowed to leave. It's not wonton destruction at will, it's quite the opposite.
Where does it say in the Bible God will torture people in hell? Reference? And in your system of justice, what's fair? (Assuming there is a God that is.) Would it be fairer to just forgive everyone? To let Pol Pot and co. into heaven?
The thing with that is that this isn't some book about your work. It's a book that details the origins of the universe, the existence and nature of God, heaven and hell and the actions that result in ending up in either of those places, the Son of God and the dozens of miracles he performed, the same mans teachings, death and resurrection, etc... It cannot be treated with a 'maybe they cut a few corners and this is just a general idea of what happened' attitude. It controls peoples lives - how many people are controlled almost solely by their beliefs that what the Bible says is true? A lot. Of all the things you've said, that is perhaps the most absurd.
Edit: It's also caused wars, been cited as the reason behind some of the worst crimes against humanity in history, opposes science and contains information that contradicts both itself and available evidence.
It seems to me you just provided me more ammunition.
So all the people going to church in their best Sunday clothes are Hypocrites?
Your point about "As I have already demonstrated, human nature itself is based upon greed and subjugation which is why humans manipulate any organisation"
Manipulate any organisation?
What about starting our own organisation?
So lets use that human nature you speak of, lets go along the lines of inventing some mythical all powerful being to scare and terrorise uneducated peoples?
Lets call him God!
No need to base it on facts, if lightening hits someones house just tell them you have been punished by God!
If locusts come and destroy your crops decimating the population through starvation, you have been punished by God!
If the Sun shines and your crops grow you have been rewarded by God!
As God has been so good to you, give us a share of your hard earned to give to God.
It means we don't have to work, lets call it something like erm? I know we shall call it a tithe!
Or I fancy roast ox tonight, tell the muppets we need a sacrifice to God!
Then we can sit back and watch the money and goods roll in.
Don't forget to get them building temples for us getting bigger and better with each generation.
Oh and we want to own the land, take it off them, then rent it back to them we will need more money!
Then when they have enough sense to question what they are being told, kill and torture them so the others stay in line.
When the majority are starting to suss us out, because they are better educated we will say you have to take it on FAITH!
Point out to other rich and powerful organisations (Kings etc.)how useful we are at keeping the masses down trodden and we are all sorted for life!
It seems to me you just provided me more ammunition.
So all the people going to church in their best Sunday clothes are Hypocrites?
Your point about "As I have already demonstrated, human nature itself is based upon greed and subjugation which is why humans manipulate any organisation"
Manipulate any organisation?
What about starting our own organisation?
So lets use that human nature you speak of, lets go along the lines of inventing some mythical all powerful being to scare and terrorise uneducated peoples?
Lets call him God!
No need to base it on facts, if lightening hits someones house just tell them you have been punished by God!
If locusts come and destroy your crops decimating the population through starvation, you have been punished by God!
If the Sun shines and your crops grow you have been rewarded by God!
As God has been so good to you, give us a share of your hard earned to give to God.
It means we don't have to work, lets call it something like erm? I know we shall call it a tithe!
Or I fancy roast ox tonight, tell the muppets we need a sacrifice to God!
Then we can sit back and watch the money and goods roll in.
Don't forget to get them building temples for us getting bigger and better with each generation.
Oh and we want to own the land, take it off them, then rent it back to them we will need more money!
Then when they have enough sense to question what they are being told, kill and torture them so the others stay in line.
When the majority are starting to suss us out, because they are better educated we will say you have to take it on FAITH!
Point out to other rich and powerful organisations (Kings etc.)how useful we are at keeping the masses down trodden and we are all sorted for life!
Yes, all Christians who claim to be perfect are hypocrits! The whole point of Christianity is grace. Which is about admitting that one is not perfect, in fact, one is quite the opposite, and without the help of God, one can't get away from that. So, any Christian claiming to be 'better' than others, is probably a hypocrit. Which is exactly why I haven't made that claim and instead I have demonstrated that humans are flawed. Be it their blelief in democracy, science, religion, whatever, humans are flawed.
Yes, humans manipulate all sorts of organisations, I'm glad you've come round to that. It is however, an illogical jump to therefore assume that all such organisations are inherrently wrong in themselves. A point I've made various times yet you've ignored once more. Take democracy. The USA wanted to impose democracy in Vietnam due to the 'domino thoery' and consequently killed millions in Vietnam. Look up the My Lai massacre for a horrible example. Does that make democracy bad?! No, I think it's still the best of the lot. In the words of Churchill: "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." So yes, humans have manipulated democracy at times, but no, that does not mean democracy itself is fundamentally wrong. It also does not mean that democracy does not exist.
I would apply the same logic to religion. It has been manipulated at various points throughout history. Yes, we're agreed. It's an illogical jump however, to use that argument to claim religion is always bad and/or not true.
I think the Bible is pretty clear on looking after the poor, radical I would argue. Have a quick skim read to see the sheer amount of biblical text that refers to looking after the poor: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-poverty.html Considering the context in which those words were written they're quite radical. More progressive than we are today. Forgiving your debtors every 7 years? Something so generous that in modern day society we would think it was barmy! Have the thousands of verses often been ignored? Yes, and I hate that! Is that the fault of humans. Yup.
I'm not talking to you in particular mate
Ha, sorry! Love the name, think Stam was a great player.
As you are now getting obtuse and want me to supply references for all I say.
Only Sodom and Gomorrah my arse!
I did a Google for "What a nice guy God is"
http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/Violence_and_God.htm
All violence instigated by Him or one of his mouthpieces.
Reference away.
I do believe the church is evil!
I believe they have other written proofs stashed away that they keep from believers, that contradict the Bible even further.
You keep bringing up evil humans I don't deny they are evil.
But I can prove they exist or existed!
Lets not forget if Pol Pot repented on his death bed he is in Heaven now.
As you are now getting obtuse and want me to supply references for all I say.
Only Sodom and Gomorrah my arse!
I did a Google for "What a nice guy God is"
http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/Violence_and_God.htm
All violence instigated by Him or one of his mouthpieces.
Reference away.
I do believe the church is evil!
I believe they have other written proofs stashed away that they keep from believers, that contradict the Bible even further.
You keep bringing up evil humans I don't deny they are evil.
But I can prove they exist or existed!
Lets not forget if Pol Pot repented on his death bed he is in Heaven now.
By your system of judgement, Pol Pot is everyones equal!
Who is to say that Pol Pot would enter Heaven if he reprented? I don't see how you can make such a statement. Neither you nor I (according to the Christian faith) could possibly know that.
If you've given up on arguing for yourself and you're only going to supply links I will return the favour:
C.S. Lewis Surprised by Joy
C.S. Lewis Mere Christianity
N.T Wright Suprised by Hope
http://kingwatch.co.nz/Law_Government/violenz.htm
The point was the people take from it what they want and that the auditors were the representation of the "fundamentalists". I am glad that you took what you wanted from my little tale and took from it what you wanted.....illustrating my point perfectly.
I didn't just 'take what I wanted'. I'm saying that using the fact you wrote a manual at work as an anology for the construction of the Bible is not appropriate.
Are you really that obtuse?
You brought up Pol Pot for some unknown reason.
Like you have dragged in other organisations and governments as if they back up your argument!
None of them have anything to do with God!
Your posts are really long and manage to say absolutely nothing.
You have said nothing to back up any proof in God, in God creating the Earth in God ever existing!
And then to top it all your childish I have given up arguing for myself.
You want me to type out every time God or one of Gods servants have been evil???????
I would be here for the rest of eternity.
My argument hasn't changed the Bible is bullshit and the parts that are more bullshit than others and can be disproved you and your ilk claim it is only metaphorical.
It wasn't metaphorical when written, as that is what they believed in those uneducated times.
(As it was the word of God, you would think he would have mentioned it to them wouldn't you ?)
As for Pol Pot entering Heaven, how could he it doesn't exist.
I thought every one got to Heaven if they truly repented or is that only in certain cases?
ie. When it makes a good story.
RebelBhoy when you have me and Myrtle agreeing on something (you being a pedant), which we hardly ever do.
Your case may well be lost.
I thought we supported the same dream?