Two wingers and 'balance'

[Ghoddle10]

As I've said before, I don't like two wingers in the main, because it's too high-risk, IMHO.

Many people claim Bale on the left, Lennon on the right gives us 'balance'. I think it often unbalances us, because it leaves us too open in CM.

Here's Harry on the subject

“People say to me ‘we’re better when we play 4-4-2’ but I played that way this time and I didn’t like the look of us. I thought we were miles too open.

Maybe 4-4-1-1 with two wingers can work better, but our stats this season apparently show we have significantly WORSE ppg when Lennon starts this season.

Obviously it wasn't just Lennon's fault we lost, though he certainly unbalanced the team along with Saha and Defoe in that Livermore and Modric were left with far too much to do. Bale was poor as well, but he has to play against Chelsea surely.

King is obviously a key problem, I've been saying for a while I'd rather Nelsen played than him, and I hope Ledley doesn't start on Sunday. Gallas Kaboul Nelsen are the three to pick from, and if two of them can't make it, play someone like Walker, anyone but Ledley.

 

[NSIS]

I'll give my detached, impartial view (this is far more interesting than discussing how the title is in the bag again )

I take the opposite view to you, GH. Any team should play to its strengths. Spurs are blessed with two wingers with rare pace and ability in Lennon and Bale, a playmaker in Modric who can control the game and make decisive passes, a forward in Adebayor who is willing to run the channels and has no little skill in front of goal and an enigma in vdV, who can create and score goals from the free role he gets as the "spare man" between midfield and attack. Both full backs support the wingers stretching the play and creating space in wide areas and Parker now provides essential graft in midfield. When these players play as a 4-4-1-1, Spurs have proved to be a match for any team.
The defence takes care of itself because you tend to dominate possession and press the opposition back. Few teams have the quality to hurt you on the counter attack.

Few footballers are capable of carrying out many disciplines. They like familiarity. They function best when asked to do what they do naturally. If you hit on formation and tactics which have your best players doing just that then you stick with it! Remember that for 20 odd games of the season with 4-4-1-1 operating in 90% of the games, Spurs were challenging for top spot in the PL.

Players of this ability shouldn't need motivating. They are fit too and shouldn't be fatigued at this stage of the season if they are handled properly. If there is a problem now, then changing formation isn't the solution- it's more likely part of the cause.

Injuries can be problematic, but, so far as possible, like for like replacements is the answer. It's farcical when the absence of Bale or Lennon leads to six or seven changes in personnel or position! Rose or dos Santos or Townsend can play the same role even if they may not be of the same quality. They have pace, they can occupy defenders and stretch defences, allowing others to continue to perform their normal roles within the side. What good is Modric on the left in a narrow midfield- as has been the case in some recent games?

King has looked poor recently, but for the first half of the season he formed an effective partnership with Kaboul. In a 4-4-1-1 he defends higher up the pitch with the play usually ahead of him, enabling him to read the game and take up decent positions. When Spurs play deeper, with two holding midfielders, he is more likely to have to turn and run towards his own goal, which he plainly now struggles to do.

I find it hsrd to argue with any of that. Our game is all about pace, and speed of passing. And, As luke says, Parker does a great job of tidying up lost possession in the midfield. The problem remains the same one that we've discussed for ages. Most of us agree which is our best set-up, and how we like to play. Unfortunately, Harry seems to see things differently. He spends far too much time trying to accomodate all his favourites, and trying to stuff metaphorical square pegs into round holes.

 

[Spurf]

Luke has found the safest way to support Spurs. Takes an interest in everything Spurs, follows their games, know the strengths of their players, but to avoid the pitfalls of being a Spurs supporter claims he is a supporter of Man U.

As long as Man U. remain strong he has the handy backstop of being able to enjoy their success whilst at the same time secretly follow his first love, the mercurial and very wonderful Tottenham Hotspur.

 

[LockStock]

4-4-2 is fine for us. Has been, even before the arrival of VDV.

However, it only works well when 1 of your 2 in the middle of the midfield four has some steel.

Palacios proved this when we got into the top four in the first place. Even Hudd was begining to show more balls when he lined up next to Modric in the middle toward the end of one of his best seasons for us.

Livermore doesn't have enough of this to do it by himself. Sandro isn't quite there yet either, especially when you compare him to Parker.

We need a 'General', especially if Modric is to effectively play in an attacking role.

Without the steel, we are like a house of cards.

If Harry was hell bent of resting Parker, I would have rather he played with Sandro and Livermore as holding midfielders. Modric, VDV or even Krancar in the hole. Lennon and Bale on the wings. Saha or Adebayor up front.

Also to give Ekkoto and Walker more of a license to fly forwards into attack positions so that we could attack more relentlessly and link up down the wings. Corluka and Lennon had this down to an art.

Modric and Livermore in the middle is always going to be too soft. Livermore is an improvement on Jenas, in this regard, but not a replacement for Hudd or Palacios, yet.

The problem isn't 'wingers'! That is our finest asset. Clumsy midfield and defence costs us games.

I also think we miss the Scoles, Hudd, Krancar style accurate shots from outside the box that make the keeper work.

 

[Chirpy rides again]

I'll give my detached, impartial view (this is far more interesting than discussing how the title is in the bag again )

I take the opposite view to you, GH. Any team should play to its strengths. Spurs are blessed with two wingers with rare pace and ability in Lennon and Bale, a playmaker in Modric who can control the game and make decisive passes, a forward in Adebayor who is willing to run the channels and has no little skill in front of goal and an enigma in vdV, who can create and score goals from the free role he gets as the "spare man" between midfield and attack. Both full backs support the wingers stretching the play and creating space in wide areas and Parker now provides essential graft in midfield. When these players play as a 4-4-1-1, Spurs have proved to be a match for any team. The defence takes care of itself because you tend to dominate possession and press the opposition back. Few teams have the quality to hurt you on the counter attack.

Few footballers are capable of carrying out many disciplines. They like familiarity. They function best when asked to do what they do naturally. If you hit on formation and tactics which have your best players doing just that then you stick with it! Remember that for 20 odd games of the season with 4-4-1-1 operating in 90% of the games, Spurs were challenging for top spot in the PL.

Players of this ability shouldn't need motivating. They are fit too and shouldn't be fatigued at this stage of the season if they are handled properly. If there is a problem now, then changing formation isn't the solution- it's more likely part of the cause.

Injuries can be problematic, but, so far as possible, like for like replacements is the answer. It's farcical when the absence of Bale or Lennon leads to six or seven changes in personnel or position! Rose or dos Santos or Townsend can play the same role even if they may not be of the same quality. They have pace, they can occupy defenders and stretch defences, allowing others to continue to perform their normal roles within the side. What good is Modric on the left in a narrow midfield- as has been the case in some recent games?

King has looked poor recently, but for the first half of the season he formed an effective partnership with Kaboul. In a 4-4-1-1 he defends higher up the pitch with the play usually ahead of him, enabling him to read the game and take up decent positions. When Spurs play deeper, with two holding midfielders, he is more likely to have to turn and run towards his own goal, which he plainly now struggles to do.

Luke, due to your contributions on BBC606 I find it unnerving that, more often than not, I seem to agree with you lately. I have said elsewhere, that 4-4-1-1 is our best formation and the best fit for our available players. Chopping and changing players either within that system, or changing the system altogether is not a tactic we should be employing at the arse end of the season.

IF teams "work out" the formation and find ways to counter it, the onus is on Harry,our gigantic coaching team and the players themselves, to come up with tactics to overcome this. If we change formation, or put players in unfamiliar positions, we are playing into the opposition's hands. You can bet your life that the oppositon will be laying in THEIR preferred positions and formation, handing them a huge advantage before a ball has been kicked.

As far as I can see, Lennon and BAE aside, there are replacements for everyone of our best 11. Why isn't Dos Santos working closely with VDV to a. make him a better player and b. know what is expected of him when he is called on? There are match-ups like this all over the pitch, but instead we prefer to bash square pegs in round holes.

Last but by no means least Ledley. He is a god. A true Tottenham legend. It is time for him. His long term health and the performance of the team mean that it would be a huge mistake to offer him anything other than a coaching contract. I think, knowing what a faithful servant of the club he has been, that he will draw the same conclusion.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

It's funny, but I don't remember Redknapp claiming that some random, unnamed people told him to play 4-4-2 when we put 4 and 5 past Liverpool and Newcastle.
It's almost as if he's making excuses to cover up his own mistakes...

 

[Ghoddle10]

4-4-2 is fine for us. Has been, even before the arrival of VDV.

However, it only works well when 1 of your 2 in the middle of the midfield four has some steel.

Palacios proved this when we got into the top four in the first place. Even Hudd was begining to show more balls when he lined up next to Modric in the middle toward the end of one of his best seasons for us.

Livermore doesn't have enough of this to do it by himself. Sandro isn't quite there yet either, especially when you compare him to Parker.

We need a 'General', especially if Modric is to effectively play in an attacking role.

Without the steel, we are like a house of cards.

If Harry was hell bent of resting Parker, I would have rather he played with Sandro and Livermore as holding midfielders. Modric, VDV or even Krancar in the hole. Lennon and Bale on the wings. Saha or Adebayor up front.

Also to give Ekkoto and Walker more of a license to fly forwards into attack positions so that we could attack more relentlessly and link up down the wings. Corluka and Lennon had this down to an art.

Modric and Livermore in the middle is always going to be too soft. Livermore is an improvement on Jenas, in this regard, but not a replacement for Hudd or Palacios, yet.

The problem isn't 'wingers'! That is our finest asset. Clumsy midfield and defence costs us games.

I also think we miss the Scoles, Hudd, Krancar style accurate shots from outside the box that make the keeper work.

I don't think the wingers are our finest asset. The stats show that we have a WORSE ppg this season when Lennon starts, hardly indicative of him being a prize asset.

I think Lennon's ok, but he's not in my 'first XI' and I hope he's not in Harry's come Sunday.

Parker Livermore Modric Ade Bale VDV are my favourite 'front 6', I hope they start on Sunday. I suspect Sandro will get the nod over Jake, and I think that will be a mistake, but hey ho and on we go, etc

 

[KingHotspur]

4-4-1-1

Goalkeeper
Right back
Centre back x2
Left back

Right wing
Defensive midfielder
Central playmaking midfielder
Left wing

Van Der Vaart role

Lone striker.

---------------

That's our best formation and we should have at least 22 players that can play it so when someone gets injured then we can change personnel without disruption.

The thing is I think we could have that easily with the current players we have but Harry has alienated them or sent them out on loan.

And against the lesser teams we should be able to change that to 4-4-2 with two strikers without being 'too open'

 

[Ghoddle10]

Luke has found the safest way to support Spurs. Takes an interest in everything Spurs, follows their games, know the strengths of their players, but to avoid the pitfalls of being a Spurs supporter claims he is a supporter of Man U.

As long as Man U. remain strong he has the handy backstop of being able to enjoy their success whilst at the same time secretly follow his first love, the mercurial and very wonderful Tottenham Hotspur.

Love it Spurf, I long ago gave up replying to Luke. He's a Man U 'fan', why is he so obsessed with us. I can't stand Man U, so debating things Spurs with him, is way too much of a chore. I respect his right to post on here, but I just leave him alone to continue his bizarre Spurs obsession. I wonder what % of his posts are on the Man U board?

 

[Ghoddle10]

It's funny, but I don't remember Redknapp claiming that some random, unnamed people told him to play 4-4-2 when we put 4 and 5 past Liverpool and Newcastle.
It's almost as if he's making excuses to cover up his own mistakes...

Fair comments PNP, Harry got it wrong yesterday. I thought we'd beat Norwich despite my aversion to two wingers and Ledley playing. I called it wrong too, but hey I'm not the manager.

I just hope that's the last time Ledley plays this season (maybe five minutes so he can collect the cup ) and that we returnto two DMs for Chelsea and see where that takes us.

 

[Ghoddle10]

4-4-1-1

Goalkeeper
Right back
Centre back x2
Left back

Right wing
Defensive midfielder
Central playmaking midfielder
Left wing

Van Der Vaart role

Lone striker.

---------------

That's our best formation and we should have at least 22 players that can play it so when someone gets injured then we can change personnel without disruption.

The thing is I think we could have that easily with the current players we have but Harry has alienated them or sent them out on loan.

And against the lesser teams we should be able to change that to 4-4-2 with two strikers without being 'too open'

HI KH, I don't think that is our best formation, and the stats indicate it isn't. We do better without Lennon (who obviously plays RW) than with him.

I'm not sure what our best formation is, but I'm convinced it doesn't involve two wingers.

 

[Chirpy rides again]

I can see there is some disagreement about two wide players. It only leaves us open if they don't do their bit when the opposition has the ball. To be fair to the much maligned Lennon, he actually chases back more than Bale, whose defensive work this year has mostly been pretty pathetic.

 

[Ghoddle10]

Fair comments Chirpy, Lennon does chase around, but I think that over-impresses the crowd at times. When you're playing against 3 CMs, wingers chasing back isn't always the answer anyway. Plus two DMs tend to give more solidity in the key area of defending set pieces.

Bale is simply a better player than Lennon and so realistically has to play the big games when fit. That means benching Lennon for me. I wouldn't have minded Bale being rested yesterday and Lennon starting, but had we lost then Harry would have been blamed for that.

Tough calls for managers to make. Overall Harry has done well for us, if we finish 6th that's where I thought we'd finish at the start of the season, and is roughly where our finances predict we should finish. However, it will hurt of course given how well we over-performed for so long.

Should we not win the cup though, and Harry leaves without winning a trophy with us, he won't be remembered as one of our great managers, but a 'nearly great'. (IMHO)

 

[Spurlock]

Luke has found the safest way to support Spurs. Takes an interest in everything Spurs, follows their games, know the strengths of their players, but to avoid the pitfalls of being a Spurs supporter claims he is a supporter of Man U.

As long as Man U. remain strong he has the handy backstop of being able to enjoy their success whilst at the same time secretly follow his first love, the mercurial and very wonderful Tottenham Hotspur.

spot on

the enigma that is Lidl..was a twat on the old 606 mind..but seems to love following Spurs..its almost like his Frankenstein project..where he would love it if our style of play was combined with United's success

 

[Spurlock]

It's funny, but I don't remember Redknapp claiming that some random, unnamed people told him to play 4-4-2 when we put 4 and 5 past Liverpool and Newcastle.
It's almost as if he's making excuses to cover up his own mistakes...

nope....he didnt..your spot on PNP.....now im intrigued as to why he would use such a tactic...what is he thinking...and the likes of me are right when we feel as though he treats us like mugs when he messes things up...but loves lapping it up when we suceed...i dont like that be it in HR or anyone else who i come across in life..because to me it plays on on 1 word in my mind...trust...or in HR's case....not much of it.

however like us he is human and can make mistakes...im not a total twat..but why can he never admit it and point the finger at his players or himself....and say tht they need to pull their finger out of their arse because it is not on..instead its excuse after excuse..

 

[notsosmartspur]

Formations and players are pretty much the same as before Christmas, so I'm just not buying any of this. Whats changed?....nothing other than mindset for me. We were a unit...including the manager! Everyone pulling together for CL football next season, and that was going pretty well I thought until capello walked out. Since then, the whole feeling around the club has changed from optimism to uncertainty, you won't get anywhere all the time its like that. All this rubbish from Harry that they are professional and will carry on in the same vein whether he's there or not....looks like it eh!

 

[Ghoddle10]

Well, it does seem that the England job/court case has destabilised things. King going to pieces has been another big factor, Dawson's injury making that even more damaging.

However, I think formations, personnel play a part too. We don't agree on here as to the best way to play and who to play, and I think Harry's not sure either.

I would still fancy us to beat Chelsea if we could play our best XI including Kaboul and Gallas, but my 'best XI' is one of various 'best XI's on this board, here's hoping Harry can find the right one.

 

[notsosmartspur]

Seems to have destabilised?, no seems about it, Harry's head being turned by the england job has busted the best thing he's had, thats how it looks atm. Not enough importance is given to 'team' spirit and frame of mind, too many people think players can just be shovelled in to do their 'job' regardless...rubbish!

It used to be the case that a Spurs team would 'appear' to take it easy before a Semi, being a Cup side an all that! perhaps old habits die hard!

 

[Ghoddle10]

Seems to have destabilised?, no seems about it, Harry's head being turned by the england job has busted the best thing he's had, thats how it looks atm. Not enough importance is given to 'team' spirit and frame of mind, too many people think players can just be shovelled in to do their 'job' regardless...rubbish!

It used to be the case that a Spurs team would 'appear' to take it easy before a Semi, being a Cup side an all that! perhaps old habits die hard!

Fair comments NSS

 

[Mahmoud Ahmadinejad]

Luke is right (even with his history)

Harry's insistence on using the nominally best 11 players available regardless of position or fatigue has cost us

4-4-1-1 is clearly our best formation so we should have reserve players that can fit into it

Eg if Bale is out play Kranjcar at LW not Modric. Or if VDV is out play Dos Santos in the hole (even though Harry clearly hates him)