Your view on club rivalries (Supporter/Fan Debate)

[Peter Damage]

Based on the analogy in the original post between and a supporter fan is a fair one but it is also clear that there are some grey areas.

For me I don't see how anyone can see any facotor about supporting a team being more important than actually going to games.

Unless you go to games on a regular basis your feeling and an also knowledge for of the club is to an extent limited. Opinions of fans are heavily influenced by commentators, pundits and journalists and in the case of a small club like QPR their opinions are limited by how little they see of us as their attention is focused towards the big clubs. Opinions of a supporter are based on what they see and experience at the game and the next biggest influence is the opinions of those you go with or drink with before and afterwards both opinions are more likely to be valid than your average pundit or hournalists views.

I don’t have any criticism of fans who don’t go to games for geographical or financial reasons but the fans who watch MOTD the day and sky whenever they are on don’t really care about the club anymore than my missus does about Eastenders. Thankfully Rangers don’t have many of these… yet!!

 

[Queenslander!!]

Based on the analogy in the original post between and a supporter fan is a fair one but it is also clear that there are some grey areas.

For me I don't see how anyone can see any facotor about supporting a team being more important than actually going to games.

Unless you go to games on a regular basis your feeling and an also knowledge for of the club is to an extent limited. Opinions of fans are heavily influenced by commentators, pundits and journalists and in the case of a small club like QPR their opinions are limited by how little they see of us as their attention is focused towards the big clubs. Opinions of a supporter are based on what they see and experience at the game and the next biggest influence is the opinions of those you go with or drink with before and afterwards both opinions are more likely to be valid than your average pundit or hournalists views.

I don’t have any criticism of fans who don’t go to games for geographical or financial reasons but the fans who watch MOTD the day and sky whenever they are on don’t really care about the club anymore than my missus does about Eastenders. Thankfully Rangers don’t have many of these… yet!!

Sorry mate, really cant agree wit much of that. Distant fans / supporters are lead by the commentators? really. I wouyld put it to you that fans based away from HQ (for what ever reason0 are probably more knowledgable about OUR club than home fans. They could prob quote speaches from sexton francis et al....

Your 2nd sentence (IMHO) is wrong for so many reasons. You would hope your so called supporters were there when we were ****e..but a lot of long term wern't !! excuse after excuse. ure they made Oxford away etc, but the Port Vales etc were for a dedicated few.
Nottingham away when we got relegated, last agme of the season and a masive turn out...That was the die hard fans, standing singing our club until they finally came back out to clap us.....!
I dont go to games...am i not a supporter then?

 

[qprbeth]

For what it is worth. QPR were my local club...I lived in Wembley. The first match I went to was when I was 12/13 (remember I am a girl) and I was just smitten....and I have been stuck with them ever since. When I was a teenager I had no money but went to every match I could, say 5 a season (that didn't make me any less of a fan....just a fact of economic life.... I bought every footy magazine/every paper just to get a bit of news about the Rs). When I got money when I was about 20 I got a season ticket and then went to at least 50% of the away matches....for about 12 years and then I got pregnant (I am still a girl) and stopped going, (Bringing up babies stops you following especially when your husband has ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST IN ANY SPORT AT ALL) but still I hang on every single result, report etc. I lived the club from afar.....but I really do not think I changed from being a fan (into a supporter at that time). I tried to take the girls, but like their father they have no interest at all in sport). So now I am a bit freer I go to the home matches....but still I feel as fanatical about the Rs as the first time I saw them. That cannot change, that is a fan...I don't really have a second team to support.....I was depressed when we were in division 2, but that was life there was no where else to go....as I have said here and else where...I am stuck with the Rs and I am afraid they are stuck with me.

I should say I respect all other supporters of all teams (big or little) who feel exactly the same way, but have no time for the glory hunters who lose interest when things don't go right....which is why I don't participate in the threads saying "what if we go down". What if.....I will be sad, but then whatever there is always next year, I'm still here and so are the Rs....It is just a LOVE AFFAIR..

 

[QPAAAAAGH]

For what it is worth. QPR were my local club...I lived in Wembley. The first match I went to was when I was 12/13 (remember I am a girl) and I was just smitten....and I have been stuck with them ever since. When I was a teenager I had no money but went to every match I could, say 5 a season (that didn't make me any less of a fan....just a fact of economic life.... I bought every footy magazine/every paper just to get a bit of news about the Rs). When I got money when I was about 20 I got a season ticket and then went to at least 50% of the away matches....for about 12 years and then I got pregnant (I am still a girl) and stopped going, (Bringing up babies stops you following especially when your husband has ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST IN ANY SPORT AT ALL) but still I hang on every single result, report etc. I lived the club from afar.....but I really do not think I changed from being a fan (into a supporter at that time). I tried to take the girls, but like their father they have no interest at all in sport). So now I am a bit freer I go to the home matches....but still I feel as fanatical about the Rs as the first time I saw them. That cannot change, that is a fan...I don't really have a second team to support.....I was depressed when we were in division 2, but that was life there was no where else to go....as I have said here and else where...I am stuck with the Rs and I am afraid they are stuck with me.

I should say I respect all other supporters of all teams (big or little) who feel exactly the same way, but have no time for the glory hunters who lose interest when things don't go right....which is why I don't participate in the threads saying "what if we go down". What if.....I will be sad, but then whatever there is always next year, I'm still here and so are the Rs....It is just a LOVE AFFAIR..

Wonderfully put Beth. Best thing I've read on here in ages.

 

[District Line]

As discussed many times on here and elsewhere where you were brought up does actually make a huge difference to your view on footballing rivalry. I defy anyone brought up in the Bush (as I was) to say they are ambivalent on the QPR/Chelsea issue. When I was growing up the choice between the two clubs was about much more than just football: it was also a choice between local loyalty vs glory hunting; family tradition vs passing fads; Irish heritage vs Home Counties swank; liberal politics vs national front; and of course enjoying the beautiful game vs enjoying a punch up.

I think District Line would secretly like to be an Rs supporter but just can't take that final step. Let's help him out of the closet...

That bit did make laugh

I suppose it's more like that now because Chelsea have a good team and actually win stuff these days but it hasn't always been like that. These days you get a lot more bandwagoners but at least they are local, personally I'd much rather see people in London supporting London clubs than sporting a hideous United or Liverpool top, I've even started to see the odd Man City shirt near where I live, scary or what?

My Dads side are all West London and my cousins used to go to Loftus Road all the time (maybe they still do), big QPR fans. I spent virtually half my early childhood in West London and chose Chelsea or Chelsea chose me, despite most of my family being West London I am the only Chelsea fan, the rest are all Arsenal strangely.

 

[District Line]

For what it is worth. QPR were my local club...I lived in Wembley. The first match I went to was when I was 12/13 (remember I am a girl) and I was just smitten....and I have been stuck with them ever since. When I was a teenager I had no money but went to every match I could, say 5 a season (that didn't make me any less of a fan....just a fact of economic life.... I bought every footy magazine/every paper just to get a bit of news about the Rs). When I got money when I was about 20 I got a season ticket and then went to at least 50% of the away matches....for about 12 years and then I got pregnant (I am still a girl) and stopped going, (Bringing up babies stops you following especially when your husband has ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST IN ANY SPORT AT ALL) but still I hang on every single result, report etc. I lived the club from afar.....but I really do not think I changed from being a fan (into a supporter at that time). I tried to take the girls, but like their father they have no interest at all in sport). So now I am a bit freer I go to the home matches....but still I feel as fanatical about the Rs as the first time I saw them. That cannot change, that is a fan...I don't really have a second team to support.....I was depressed when we were in division 2, but that was life there was no where else to go....as I have said here and else where...I am stuck with the Rs and I am afraid they are stuck with me.

I should say I respect all other supporters of all teams (big or little) who feel exactly the same way, but have no time for the glory hunters who lose interest when things don't go right....which is why I don't participate in the threads saying "what if we go down". What if.....I will be sad, but then whatever there is always next year, I'm still here and so are the Rs....It is just a LOVE AFFAIR..

Christ you could actually be the biggest gloryhunter on here, supporting whoever wins the FA Cup Final.

Bad Joke?

 

[Peter Damage]

I dont go to games...am i not a supporter then?

You obviously care about the club but unless you are at the games the passion really can’t be the same. During my three years at university I went to probably only 20% of games that season and because I played for the university team we would catch a bit of soccer saturday or five live if we were lucky. During that time I still cared about QPR equally as much but I wasnt experiencing the games so the feeling was not the same. I did not experience the same highs and lows as you do when you are at a game. During my uni years I would say I was in the category of fan.

Remember Queenslander I said there were grey areas. Supporters are their own category and fans can be distinguished between how I was at uni and you are now and a separate category of fan. Typical and extreme example of which would be the Korean fan who watchs the occasional game, buys a shirt with Park Ji- Sungs name on and when in England gets tickets for a game and takes lots of picture but doesn’t sing.

You clearly were a supporter at one point but for geographical reasons I would put you in the category of fan. If you ever moved back you would become a supporter again no doubt. However the regular match day experience is an altogether different experience to watching it in a pub or on a laptop.

 

[District Line]

I don't see the chavs around my way wearing anything other than Chelsea, Arsenal and Man Utd shirts. At my kids school all the boys at the after school club wear replica kits but they have never set foot in Stamford Bridge, The Emirates or Old Trafford. All their experiences are based on watching TV and the influence of family and friends. I doubt many, if any, of the dads and uncles even go to watch live football.

There are blokes at work who turn up in the full Chelsea branded gear from track suits to tee shirts and hats, always on the wind up when they win saying "WE" beat whoever and they have never been to a game. Football has become a fashion statement and picking a team to support looks more to do with perception than any sort of loyalty or history.

Football brings a sense of belonging and it is natural to veer towards a team that has been successful rather than one who may be closer but has no street credibility. Why don't any of the kids round our way support Sutton Utd, Kingstonians, AFC Wimbledon etc? It is because there is no brand associated with them. Follow a team that wins trophies and you believe yourself to be a winner also (?)

Even in the 70s (when I was a nipper) you were looked down upon in my school for supporting Chelsea. Before I knew what they were about or even if there was a rivalry with Rangers it was understood that Chelsea were supported by the common, thick or aggro kids. This may be relevent to my school only but that was how it was back then.

A mate of mine supports Millwall and even though he doesn't actively take part in any hooliganism he loves it when he is surrounded by 'Wall supporters going to a game because of a sense of belonging and the antagonism towards others that their fans create. He revels in the "nobody likes us and we don't care" attitude the fans have.

Who knows what might be round the corner? If we stay up and can become an established Premiership club with a few trophies in the cabinet then maybe we will attract the casual support that other bigger teams have. For now I am happy being a true supporter, one who actually goes to watch and not just because I have the latest replica shirt.

Well said

 

[Flyer]

just because we have moved away does not make us any less a supporter
fair share of glory hunters here too
including my 12 year old

I have a 9-12 hour day including travelling so every game for me is an away game. So going through that or getting up at 3am to watch on TV/net makes you every bit a supporter as someone who walks or takes a tube to the game.

Its also quite fun to note the other teams fans down here, I often see Arsenal fans going to games, even saw a Fulham fan once but have never seen a chelsea fan once apart from when I had to catch a coach to the infamous win, shame they werent on the trip back after what they said on the way up!

 

[Queenslander!!]

You obviously care about the club but unless you are at the games the passion really can’t be the same. During my three years at university I went to probably only 20% of games that season and because I played for the university team we would catch a bit of soccer saturday or five live if we were lucky. During that time I still cared about QPR equally as much but I wasnt experiencing the games so the feeling was not the same. I did not experience the same highs and lows as you do when you are at a game. During my uni years I would say I was in the category of fan.

Remember Queenslander I said there were grey areas. Supporters are their own category and fans can be distinguished between how I was at uni and you are now and a separate category of fan. Typical and extreme example of which would be the Korean fan who watchs the occasional game, buys a shirt with Park Ji- Sungs name on and when in England gets tickets for a game and takes lots of picture but doesn’t sing.

You clearly were a supporter at one point but for geographical reasons I would put you in the category of fan. If you ever moved back you would become a supporter again no doubt. However the regular match day experience is an altogether different experience to watching it in a pub or on a laptop.

Mate, with all due respect..I take that as a bit of an insult to be honest
"unless you are at agame the pasion cant be the same" what absolute sh**3.....so if you have to miss a game for what ever reason, then you are not hte asame or as passionate as someone who got a few spare free tickets?...absolute crap..!

as for the rest mate, I'll be polite and say i cant agree with you, but let me leave you with this thought....You become a St holder..you attend for 20+years missng only a few games for other reasons, you give your family a new chance in life and kids a decent chance, then you sign up, log on and check your own teams website; AFTER discussing with your wife putting off emmigration becaus eQPR were going into the prem. And someone tells you that you arent as passionate as some nobody wirh free tickets, because you aint there...HOW F-ING DUMB A COMMENT IS THAT?

 

[FFS.73]

For what it is worth. QPR were my local club...I lived in Wembley. The first match I went to was when I was 12/13 (remember I am a girl) and I was just smitten....and I have been stuck with them ever since. When I was a teenager I had no money but went to every match I could, say 5 a season (that didn't make me any less of a fan....just a fact of economic life.... I bought every footy magazine/every paper just to get a bit of news about the Rs). When I got money when I was about 20 I got a season ticket and then went to at least 50% of the away matches....for about 12 years and then I got pregnant (I am still a girl) and stopped going, (Bringing up babies stops you following especially when your husband has ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST IN ANY SPORT AT ALL) but still I hang on every single result, report etc. I lived the club from afar.....but I really do not think I changed from being a fan (into a supporter at that time). I tried to take the girls, but like their father they have no interest at all in sport). So now I am a bit freer I go to the home matches....but still I feel as fanatical about the Rs as the first time I saw them. That cannot change, that is a fan...I don't really have a second team to support.....I was depressed when we were in division 2, but that was life there was no where else to go....as I have said here and else where...I am stuck with the Rs and I am afraid they are stuck with me.

I should say I respect all other supporters of all teams (big or little) who feel exactly the same way, but have no time for the glory hunters who lose interest when things don't go right....which is why I don't participate in the threads saying "what if we go down". What if.....I will be sad, but then whatever there is always next year, I'm still here and so are the Rs....It is just a LOVE AFFAIR..

Beautifully put Beth. The intensity of my physical support for the Rs has varied wildly over the years depending on where I was living and family circumstances. To be honest the intensity of the emotional support has varied a bit too, though I was in Hong Kong when we lost the Milk Cup final and was truly wiped out for a bit. What's different now is the ease of access - live streams which mean you can see every game as it happens and also undermine Sky. ( I actually prefer the non English ones where you don't have listen to ignorant commentators) and this forum - its brilliant, a long pub conversation with Rs fans, everybody's voice equally valid. Loses, or more likely poor performances, still piss me off but nothing like they did when I was in my early teens ( before girls and music made the Rs a strictly Saturday/ Wednesday obsession) certainly not enough to ruin my evening let alone my weekend.
So I probably fall into the less fanatical category, whichever that is. I like the Italian division - tifosi, for fans/ supporters, ultras for the truly committed ( these lads are not hooligans, though some have got a reputation, but are totally dedicated to the colors). I have been an ultra in my time, and for this you must go to every game, but am now definitely a tifoso.
BTW see the attendance for Barca v Milan - 99,000. I should add though that I've seen a lot of big games between big clubs and countries in famous stadiums - but very few come close to matching the atmosphere at Loftus Road when it's really rocking, as even Alex Ferguson says. Size isn't everything!

 

[Queenslander!!]

just a good thing the rest of that post didnt get posted !!

Let me leave you with this..Why dont you get a job that means you have to work Staurdays every other week?....like so many of our real fans do...that means you aint passionate about OUR team !!!!

Really cant believe a college student could post something so......illinformed...to be polite!!

 

[Flyer]

just a good thing the rest of that post didnt get posted !!

Let me leave you with this..Why dont you get a job that means you have to work Staurdays every other week?....like so many of our real fans do...that means you aint passionate about OUR team !!!!

Really cant believe a college student could post something so......illinformed...to be polite!!

I wonder if hed think the same if he got a job in Plymouth or Leeds.
I watch the NHL and the games finish at 3am and theres 3 or 4 of them a week. Ive never even seen my team play live (but went to the game at the O2) but I make more of an effort to watch games than most people who are there.

My friend lives in Sweden and he comes over to watch his team 2 or 3 times a season, I took him to Loftus road and St Marys as well and hes a big fan because he pays a years season ticket price just for a couple of games. I wonder how many of the superfans who live round the corner would go if tickets were £100 because thats what a lot of people pay who dont live in the immediate area.

 

[FFS.73]

DL, you've opened up a real can of worms here. I believe your point that you are not saying one category is 'better' than the other, but unfortunately human nature leads us to make any categorization divisive, one group must be 'superior' to the other, if not why have them? I should stress that like you I don't believe this personally, but we have hints on this thread of the direction this could take. Fortunately it's only football - in other areas such categorization has had tragic consequences. You probably need a much more sophisticated taxonomy to do this properly anyway - in the end each individual follower is a group on his or her own.

All power to the individual! I am not a number, I am a free man! I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member! Badges? We don't need no stinking badges!
Good thread though, and apologies for being rude earlier on.

 

[Peter Damage]

You seem to be getting very emotional about this and that could be why you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I have already said in my first post “I don’t have any criticism of fans who don’t go to games for geographical or financial reasons”

I am no longer at uni and I have worked in various places around the country, Bristol Milton Keynes and Birmingham but I still kept my season ticket and went to a fair amount of away games. I now work in the city and live local so the journey is much shorter but so what??! I’ve had a season ticket since I was nine and gone a lot longer than that. I am also very passionate about our team but there is a difference between what I am saying and what you are hearing.

I said that while at university “I still cared about QPR equally as much” and I am sure the same goes for you now. Be clear on that. I am not insulting you and have no reason to be insulted. I am saying not saying you don’t have passion. I used the word passionate to describe the difficult feeling to explain which is what you experience on a match day at the ground. It is clear that you still care. What I actually said was “the regular match day experience is an altogether different experience to watching it in a pub or on a laptop” and you are now disputing this?!

Too use recent perfect examples of the Liverpool, Arsenal match the adrenaline and elation I felt could only be felt by being there within the ground and experiencing the atmosphere. If I was away with work I would have cared equally as much (as I said in example of my uni days) but my actual experience of being there makes things very different. Watching those same games on the tele or a laptop would be very exciting but surely you admit the adrenaline and feeling of elation would have been amplified many time over of you were at the game?

 

[QPAAAAAGH]

District Line: do they have conversations of this stature over on the Chelsea board? If not I would again encourage you to convert to the true church of West London. This is passion you cannot buy.

 

[QPRtheyoungone]

IMHO, there is going to be less of the local rivalries, bearing mind I am still in Education, I do not have debates about who is better. As a QPR supporter (no, I do not go to many games but I've seen about 90% of the last two years' games, and I've supported the R's for as long as I can remember, and have always followed them in the table; I remember the chaotic scenes of being promoted to the championship!!!)

As I was saying, as a QPR supporter, you are very much looked down on by the "Big Club's" fans, they do not give a second thought to the little QPR, but compete within themselves; the Tottenhams, Arsenals, Chelseas. There is, because of glory hunting, many supporters of Man. U, Liverpool and, recently, Man. City fans seem to have been crawling out of the woodwork.

Honestly, It is horrifying how so many people will just jump on the band wagon, instead of supporting their local team. If everyone supported the club that was closest to them, most of the people i know would be QPR supporters... However, I only know of 4 or 5, yet I know at least 20 "fans" of the big clubs, and only one of each of those will actually have seen a game!

Anyone who says I'm not as passionate as them about QPR... You can go **** yourself!

 

[District Line]

DL, you've opened up a real can of worms here. I believe your point that you are not saying one category is 'better' than the other, but unfortunately human nature leads us to make any categorization divisive, one group must be 'superior' to the other, if not why have them? I should stress that like you I don't believe this personally, but we have hints on this thread of the direction this could take. Fortunately it's only football - in other areas such categorization has had tragic consequences. You probably need a much more sophisticated taxonomy to do this properly anyway - in the end each individual follower is a group on his or her own.

All power to the individual! I am not a number, I am a free man! I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member! Badges? We don't need no stinking badges!
Good thread though, and apologies for being rude earlier on.

Yeah I realise that now, I had hoped it wouldn't turn into this but naturally it gets quite divisive and goes a little off topic.

All fans are just as passionate etc it's just a different way of rooting or your team, IMO.

District Line: do they have conversations of this stature over on the Chelsea board? If not I would again encourage you to convert to the true church of West London. This is passion you cannot buy.

Yeah we've had this discussion on both the Chelsea and Arsenal board. The Arsenal one in particular was interesting and got quite intense, you should pop over and have a read. Sadly we had the same problems in that it turns into a different debate entirely

 

[rangercol]

Peter Damage.....I usually agree with a lot of your posts....BUT....you're talking pure ****e on this thread mate!!

 

[Queenslander!!]

You seem to be getting very emotional about this and that could be why you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I have already said in my first post “I don’t have any criticism of fans who don’t go to games for geographical or financial reasons”

I am no longer at uni and I have worked in various places around the country, Bristol Milton Keynes and Birmingham but I still kept my season ticket and went to a fair amount of away games. I now work in the city and live local so the journey is much shorter but so what??! I’ve had a season ticket since I was nine and gone a lot longer than that. I am also very passionate about our team but there is a difference between what I am saying and what you are hearing.

I said that while at university “I still cared about QPR equally as much” and I am sure the same goes for you now. Be clear on that. I am not insulting you and have no reason to be insulted. I am saying not saying you don’t have passion. I used the word passionate to describe the difficult feeling to explain which is what you experience on a match day at the ground. It is clear that you still care. What I actually said was “the regular match day experience is an altogether different experience to watching it in a pub or on a laptop” and you are now disputing this?!

Too use recent perfect examples of the Liverpool, Arsenal match the adrenaline and elation I felt could only be felt by being there within the ground and experiencing the atmosphere. If I was away with work I would have cared equally as much (as I said in example of my uni days) but my actual experience of being there makes things very different. Watching those same games on the tele or a laptop would be very exciting but surely you admit the adrenaline and feeling of elation would have been amplified many time over of you were at the game?

Mate, I am sorry if i am reading this the wrong way, but you are telling me that my feelings whilst sitting in a pub full of scoucesrs and londoners (totalling @150 or so), my feelings of joy, disapointment, dispair and elation, were any diffrent to yours at the game. I dont think so mate, not by a long shot.
What i would say to you is that, looking at the direction this thread is heading in, the amount of people who have taken offense to what has been said and the general feeling of the replies; should; give you a clear indication that what you have said is wrong?

Maybe you should go back through the last week of post by people NOT ABLE to get to the game for various reasons and decide for yourself whether they are as passionate as you? I applaud you for making the vast majority of games, but i fly home 3-4 times a year, and one of my main reasons is to see QPR play. I was at Everton, I saw us get knocked out the cup too against Rochdale (i think) etc.... I would put myself (and many others who post here) as just as much of a SUPPORTER / FAN as you.
I dont mean any offense by that
Surely you can see the point I'm trying (badly) to make? If not then we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.