Your view on club rivalries (Supporter/Fan Debate)

[District Line]

I can't multi-board but it's a discussion we've been having on the Chelsea and Arsenal boards so I thought as I visit here often why not discuss it here too?

My view is that a supporter of a club is someone that either lives/grown up locally or goes to the games and embraces the history and traditions of the club, whereas a fan is someone that is an admirer of the club and simply roots for them, in the case of Man Utd fans often largely apathetic about the club and football in general.

I'm not belittling people that can't go. I personally don't think supporters are any better than fans it's just a different way of rooting for your team.

I was also saying that London Derbies are not what they used to be and Sky are responsible for diluting and in some cases exacerbating certain rivalries.

I personally believe that clubs outside the top 5 that don't attract the gloryhunters in some ways have a stronger sense of identity therefore are more resistant to things Sky and their rubbish. Despite what Sky may have people believe I have always said I never have and never will see United or Liverpool as rivals in the same way as someone like Spurs. The day local rivalries and traditions are lost is the day football truly will die IMO.

I was saying to my housemate who is an Irish Arsenal fan (who started supporting them during the Invincibles ironically) that he cannot possibly understand London rivalries in the same way as someone like me who has grown up in South and West London all my life. In my primary school everybody either supported Chelsea or Arsenal so the rivalry started from a young age, at my previous workplace everybody either supported Chelsea or Fulham (although my boss was Arsenal). This is something I don't think you can experience or understand from overseas with all due respect.

A lot of food for thought but love to hear your views on this.

 

[_qpr-scotland_]

Really interesting idea District I like it.

Completely agree on your view on local rivalries. Unless you are, well, local. It's impossible to really experience the intensity and almost patriotic pride that is represented on the pitch. Last season I somehow contrived to watch Millwall vs QPR in the Millwall standing fans section (very long story) and I realised how all clubs mean the same to each supporter regardless of whether it's QPR or Aldershot. The passion for a team at a match can only be experienced inside a stadium and for me it means that armchair fans can in no way really experience the same love for a club that those going on a regular basis do.

That doesnt mean that you have to go every week. It just means that at some point in your life you have to have been to matches regularly and become part of the furniture a for a while. Once you gain that love for a club it is impossible to lose it.

A fan follows a team.

A supporter supports the club.


(you can also tell who goes regularly when they refer to players on a first name basis. Thought Adel was sublime, feel sorry for Clint he's just not quick enough these days. Oh Samba...what's he like eh!)

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

(you can also tell who goes regularly when they refer to players on a first name basis. Thought Adel was sublime, feel sorry for Clint he's just not quick enough these days. Oh Samba...what's he like eh!)

I tend to refer to them by their surnames.

I think a supporter is someone who goes to certain lengths to see their team. That might be trekking to the north to see a run of the mill league match or getting up at three in the morning to watch a match online in Korea, but it feels wrong if you're not.

 

[FFS.73]

Semantics.
Support is tribal, and it's perfectly possible to join a tribe, you don't have to be born into it. I lived in Milan for 4 years and was an AC Milan season ticket holder for that time. Never replaced the Rs as first passion, but was very quickly assimilated into the folklore and rivalries. Felt just the same when they won, lost or drew as I do with the Rs. Was nice going to a couple of European Cup finals though (thats Champions League now, though ironically you had to be a champion to play in the European Cup).
Of course this doesn't apply to plastics who just latch on to the most currently successful team, but you would know more about them than than us Chelsea boy.
You're not going to do anything about that outrageously long signature are you?

 

[Swords Hoopster]

I was saying to my housemate who is an Irish Arsenal fan (who started supporting them during the Invincibles ironically) that he cannot possibly understand London rivalries in the same way as someone like me who has grown up in South and West London all my life. This is something I don't think you can experience or understand from overseas with all due respect.

This was discussed on here last year DL. My view was railed against by most as I recall and it happens to be the very same as yours so don't expect too many backers!

You're totally correct in saying that your Irish mate couldn't possibly understand the local rivalry. I can't understand the hostility towards Chelsea by R's fans. I'm sure my idea that Chelsea should be our second team because they're in the same area would be seen by the local boys as totally alien and a bit farcical.

There's no doubt in my mind that if you're born and bred in the general locality of your Club that you have a special connection that no amount of memorabilia hoarding, Club-history knowledge, loyalty-proclaiming etc from overseas fans would ever be able to capture.

I would also postulate that the local lads must get annoyed at times having to listen to a load of "outsiders" shouting their opinions about every aspect of a Club of which they have never lived within hundreds of miles radius.

 

[District Line]

Really interesting idea District I like it.

Completely agree on your view on local rivalries. Unless you are, well, local. It's impossible to really experience the intensity and almost patriotic pride that is represented on the pitch. Last season I somehow contrived to watch Millwall vs QPR in the Millwall standing fans section (very long story) and I realised how all clubs mean the same to each supporter regardless of whether it's QPR or Aldershot. The passion for a team at a match can only be experienced inside a stadium and for me it means that armchair fans can in no way really experience the same love for a club that those going on a regular basis do.

That doesnt mean that you have to go every week. It just means that at some point in your life you have to have been to matches regularly and become part of the furniture a for a while. Once you gain that love for a club it is impossible to lose it.

A fan follows a team.

A supporter supports the club.

Great analogy

(you can also tell who goes regularly when they refer to players on a first name basis. Thought Adel was sublime, feel sorry for Clint he's just not quick enough these days. Oh Samba...what's he like eh!)

Semantics.
Support is tribal, and it's perfectly possible to join a tribe, you don't have to be born into it. I lived in Milan for 4 years and was an AC Milan season ticket holder for that time. Never replaced the Rs as first passion, but was very quickly assimilated into the folklore and rivalries. Felt just the same when they won, lost or drew as I do with the Rs. Was nice going to a couple of European Cup finals though (thats Champions League now, though ironically you had to be a champion to play in the European Cup).
Of course this doesn't apply to plastics who just latch on to the most currently successful team, but you would know more about them than than us Chelsea boy.
You're not going to do anything about that outrageously long signature are you?

I'll change it now, I think HIAG has made a big enough fool of himself already

 

[District Line]

This was discussed on here last year DL. My view was railed against by most as I recall and it happens to be the very same as yours so don't expect too many backers!

You're totally correct in saying that your Irish mate couldn't possibly understand the local rivalry. I can't understand the hostility towards Chelsea by R's fans. I'm sure my idea that Chelsea should be our second team because they're in the same area would be seen by the local boys as totally alien and a bit farcical.

There's no doubt in my mind that if you're born and bred in the general locality of your Club that you have a special connection that no amount of memorabilia hoarding, Club-history knowledge, loyalty-proclaiming etc from overseas fans would ever be able to capture.

I would also postulate that the local lads must get annoyed at times having to listen to a load of "outsiders" shouting their opinions about every aspect of a Club of which they have never lived within hundreds of miles radius.

I don't mean to offend, as I said fan/supporter everybody is in it regardless and just as passionate but there are some things I feel that you have live local or go to games to truly experience.

 

[FFS.73]

I would also postulate that the local lads must get annoyed at times having to listen to a load of "outsiders" shouting their opinions about every aspect of a Club of which they never lived within hundreds of miles radius.

Not from my perspective Swords. Though I was born and bred in West London, I am always delighted to find Rs followers (I'll avoid the fan v supporter debate) from different places. Their reasons are always personal and individual - a family connection, the shirt, a favourite player, whatever. Just as valid a someone from the White City Estate. It's the people who only follow 'winners' that I distrust, but that's certainly not a problem for us!

Interesting what happens to 'real' local fans/ supporters when their team isn't doing so well - very few clubs maintain the same level of attendance in lean years - even the Newcastle's and dare I say it Chelsea's have had surprisingly low crowds in relatively recent times.

 

[Queenslander!!]

Have to totally agree with the OP and i cant quite see what there was to debate about on the other sites?
Having grown up in W london and only been abroad for a couple of years now, I totally appreciate the rivalry and complete obsesion of fans for thier local or chosen teams. I was one of you who used to trek all around the country often to see absolutely hideous games in the hope of seeing QPR win. That made verything ok
What I have also experienced, which many have not, is living here, where "Soccer" (sorry-never again) is not the main sport or even widely accepted. those locals that do follow our football support the glory teams. My Next door neighbour is a Liverpool fan but has never been outside Australia. He has no concept of the rivalry between them and Man Utd or other teams. He is a sound bloke and knows his football (stats, players etc) but once asked me how close QPR was to London ?! Needless to say he got loads of stick. It was also ggod fun to sit and watch our Liverpool game with him last week (?) when he had no idea of the score.
I/we see countless Aisian, Thia etc Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal "fans" here. And very few f them can even speak English let alone go to England. They have absolutely no idea of the rivalry associated with various teams but can be quite passionate about the games and scores...
Finally as a poster from abroad (now), I can appreciate the "people abroad dont go to the game so dont really know what they are on about" syndrome. When we watch a game, we only really get to see the passage of play. And do sometimes not see a lot of the of the ball work that the likes of Adel, Cisse, Zamora etc do. I can i suppose by definition, give us a slightly warped view of players. But, what we do see is whether the decisions were correct and valid.
For example, I was watching Qpr play someone (sorry cant remember who) and Makie alledegedly got fouled in the box. All our fans were screaming for a penalty, but before the players had even finished talking to the ref, we abroad had seen the incident from 3 or 4 diffrent angles; and knew it was nowhere close to a penalty.
Later that eveining on various sites, there were posts slating the ref etc, when in fact he was correct; so i put do you this. Just because you go to a game you dont neccessarily see whats going on either do you? Most of us at games (myself included) see mainly what we want to see in that instance i think?

Just a thought for you to ponder....

 

[Queenslander!!]

(sorry..at work and interupted!)

Last point i meant to question:

Does that mean I'n now gone from being a supporter to becoming a fan?

 

[Sooperhoop]

Good thread District. Absolutely agree that locality stamps a real supporter and you never lose that tribal link to your team. Also, I lived in Waterford, Ireland in the 70s and saw quite a few of their matches at the time and to this day always follow their progress (or lack of it at the moment). I'm off to Paphos in Cyprus this morning where we stay every Easter and will be at their play-off match on Saturday afternoon, so that's two of my 'adopted' clubs who I will always support but never with the intensity of the R's. All in all you have to go to a match to be a 'fully blooded' supporter and experience first-hand what becomes the 'drug' of supporting your team...

 

[District Line]

Not from my perspective Swords. Though I was born and bred in West London, I am always delighted to find Rs followers (I'll avoid the fan v supporter debate) from different places. Their reasons are always personal and individual - a family connection, the shirt, a favourite player, whatever. Just as valid a someone from the White City Estate. It's the people who only follow 'winners' that I distrust, but that's certainly not a problem for us!

Interesting what happens to 'real' local fans/ supporters when their team isn't doing so well - very few clubs maintain the same level of attendance in lean years - even the Newcastle's and dare I say it Chelsea's have had surprisingly low crowds in relatively recent times.

Chelsea's home gates dipped in the 80s (hooliganism, relegation etc) but always had a large away following, to be fair Newcastle have to in relation to what they have won. Very few clubs could get 52,000 in the 2nd tier of English Football, then again they were also getting 15,000 for Cup matches and they have no competition for support unlike us London clubs who can't walk 5 miles without walking past another London club

Have to totally agree with the OP and i cant quite see what there was to debate about on the other sites?
Having grown up in W london and only been abroad for a couple of years now, I totally appreciate the rivalry and complete obsesion of fans for thier local or chosen teams. I was one of you who used to trek all around the country often to see absolutely hideous games in the hope of seeing QPR win. That made verything ok
What I have also experienced, which many have not, is living here, where "Soccer" (sorry-never again) is not the main sport or even widely accepted. those locals that do follow our football support the glory teams. My Next door neighbour is a Liverpool fan but has never been outside Australia. He has no concept of the rivalry between them and Man Utd or other teams. He is a sound bloke and knows his football (stats, players etc) but once asked me how close QPR was to London ?! Needless to say he got loads of stick. It was also ggod fun to sit and watch our Liverpool game with him last week (?) when he had no idea of the score.
I/we see countless Aisian, Thia etc Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal "fans" here. And very few f them can even speak English let alone go to England. They have absolutely no idea of the rivalry associated with various teams but can be quite passionate about the games and scores...
Finally as a poster from abroad (now), I can appreciate the "people abroad dont go to the game so dont really know what they are on about" syndrome. When we watch a game, we only really get to see the passage of play. And do sometimes not see a lot of the of the ball work that the likes of Adel, Cisse, Zamora etc do. I can i suppose by definition, give us a slightly warped view of players. But, what we do see is whether the decisions were correct and valid.
For example, I was watching Qpr play someone (sorry cant remember who) and Makie alledegedly got fouled in the box. All our fans were screaming for a penalty, but before the players had even finished talking to the ref, we abroad had seen the incident from 3 or 4 diffrent angles; and knew it was nowhere close to a penalty.
Later that eveining on various sites, there were posts slating the ref etc, when in fact he was correct; so i put do you this. Just because you go to a game you dont neccessarily see whats going on either do you? Most of us at games (myself included) see mainly what we want to see in that instance i think?

Just a thought for you to ponder....

Totally agree with this 100%. When Torres played for Liverpool my mate used to say he had the best movement of any striker he had ever seen (something a Tottenham fan on the Old 606 also said as well), this is something you can't appreciate on TV, it's almost superficial if you like, you can only see things from one camera angle at one specific moment.

When Spurs played Bolton I think almost everybody in the ground knew the severity of Muamba's situation (according to what I've read and seen) yet those of us watching it had no clue.

Brian Clough was way ahead of his time but I remember him castigating John Motson and MOTD for blaming refs despite having the benefit of seeing replays over and over again, this culture has almost tainted football fans opinions on refs in general, they can only see the incident once and the game is played at such a high intensity in a pressure environment mistakes can often be made.

Sky have made the footballing experience totally superficial in my view.

 

[kiwiqpr]

(sorry..at work and interupted!)

Last point i meant to question:

Does that mean I'n now gone from being a supporter to becoming a fan?

just because we have moved away does not make us any less a supporter
fair share of glory hunters here too
including my 12 year old

 

[KooPeeArr]

I suppose I count more as a follower because I've never lived in London and haven't been to more than 3 matches in a season before.

That doesn't mean I haven't shed a tear at our relegations, faced almighty stick from the throngs of local true (Ipswich) fans and spent Saturday's watching ceefax go round waiting for the next goal to go in.

I do feel a bit of a fraud compared to and jealous of the die-hard supporters on here who have earned their stripes and I will sit back in the more intense match analysis but I guess it's all my attempt at trying to be part of the passion for what is still my club.

As a point of semantics, I'd say that a fan (short for fanatic) is one who's life is the club - home and away matches in all physically possible instances. A supporter is someone who goes to matches within reason (all home games) and a follower is someone like me. I think that fans and supporters alike can mix and share views with a high level of mutual respect and knowledge whereas we followers have to pay due deference to those who are immersed fully into the match day experience that comes with locality (or fervour in the case of those that travel long distances for matches).

I guess I am a glory-hunter, just not a very good one and may well find myself exiled from the online community for such admissions.

 

[QPAAAAAGH]

I can't understand the hostility towards Chelsea by R's fans. I'm sure my idea that Chelsea should be our second team because they're in the same area would be seen by the local boys as totally alien and a bit farcical.

As discussed many times on here and elsewhere where you were brought up does actually make a huge difference to your view on footballing rivalry. I defy anyone brought up in the Bush (as I was) to say they are ambivalent on the QPR/Chelsea issue. When I was growing up the choice between the two clubs was about much more than just football: it was also a choice between local loyalty vs glory hunting; family tradition vs passing fads; Irish heritage vs Home Counties swank; liberal politics vs national front; and of course enjoying the beautiful game vs enjoying a punch up.

I think District Line would secretly like to be an Rs supporter but just can't take that final step. Let's help him out of the closet...

 

[QPR247]

just because we have moved away does not make us any less a supporter
fair share of glory hunters here too
including my 12 year old

This is an interesting question? You can obviously move up the ladder from being a follower, to a supporter to a fan (if that's the way we're putting it) but once you've been a fan can you ever just be a follower?

I don't believe you can be, once you've felt the passion for the club, been home and away and appreciated the local rivalry I can't imagine anyone just being able to look out for the results on a Saturday.

Like my antipodean friends above, due to life's other commitments I can't go as much as I'd like to anymore. However, I used to go all the time, from the old Division 1 to the new League 1. However, does someone that make someone that does go nowadays more of a fan than me?

 

[Rangers Til I Die]

So, when the 'boys' start singing "where were you when we were s£%t?", how is that supposed to help newbie fans incorporate in at any level? My view is that any paying fan is helping the club progress so welcome to all, new or old. Success inevitably attracts new fans. Whether they are glory hunters really depends on what they do in the rough times. Agree strongly with 247. Circumstances change with time. AT present fortunate to be able to afford money and time to get to every home game. Were that to ever change, would not diminish my passion for QPR.

We are QPR, say we are QPR!!

 

[Shawswood]

Rank is, well.......rank.

DL is, well......creepy.

 

[GroveRanger]

I don't see the chavs around my way wearing anything other than Chelsea, Arsenal and Man Utd shirts. At my kids school all the boys at the after school club wear replica kits but they have never set foot in Stamford Bridge, The Emirates or Old Trafford. All their experiences are based on watching TV and the influence of family and friends. I doubt many, if any, of the dads and uncles even go to watch live football.

There are blokes at work who turn up in the full Chelsea branded gear from track suits to tee shirts and hats, always on the wind up when they win saying "WE" beat whoever and they have never been to a game. Football has become a fashion statement and picking a team to support looks more to do with perception than any sort of loyalty or history.

Football brings a sense of belonging and it is natural to veer towards a team that has been successful rather than one who may be closer but has no street credibility. Why don't any of the kids round our way support Sutton Utd, Kingstonians, AFC Wimbledon etc? It is because there is no brand associated with them. Follow a team that wins trophies and you believe yourself to be a winner also (?)

Even in the 70s (when I was a nipper) you were looked down upon in my school for supporting Chelsea. Before I knew what they were about or even if there was a rivalry with Rangers it was understood that Chelsea were supported by the common, thick or aggro kids. This may be relevent to my school only but that was how it was back then.

A mate of mine supports Millwall and even though he doesn't actively take part in any hooliganism he loves it when he is surrounded by 'Wall supporters going to a game because of a sense of belonging and the antagonism towards others that their fans create. He revels in the "nobody likes us and we don't care" attitude the fans have.

Who knows what might be round the corner? If we stay up and can become an established Premiership club with a few trophies in the cabinet then maybe we will attract the casual support that other bigger teams have. For now I am happy being a true supporter, one who actually goes to watch and not just because I have the latest replica shirt.

 

[Queenslander!!]

I suppose we could do this statistcally and use "money invested " as our baseline !..to se who's the more dedicate supporter...?!

so personally for a game in the champs. I'd estimate it cost me this for a home game...

Travel: 10 in a bob to the conningham or other
ticket: 25 quid (ish)
Beer b4 game:20 - 30
programme: 5
beer in ground 15
change to throw at other team 42p
after game beer - british queen, connie, adelaide 50
trip into ealing or back to bush --free cab ( if you have nikes on)!
beer in ealing/ bush / hammersmith: 100
CERNY's drugs: 150
Club Azure entrance: free
Kebeab after: 5
dodgy cab home 10ish.

So, If you take CB's drug problem out of the equation, I would estimate that a day out following QPR : FOR ME PERSONALLY; cost around 250 quid..and on reflection, i'd say that aint far off the mark . CB obviously hits the low 500's
So if we multiply that by the number of home games, then away games double the travel..etc..you get the point....
so over the course of the year...250 x 12 (taking out games we cant make).+ merchandise + kids tickets ....

I'd say that makes me a supporter when you multiply by 20 + years...?

do these figurestally with anyone else ?