4231

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No Kane No Gain

No Kane No Gain

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2011
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No I'm not trying to count down from four. This is about Redknapp's attempts to play 4231 formation, something a lot of us wanted at the beginning of the season.

There's a lot of work still to do on it but I think it give us good balance for when Lennon's out at least. Livermore, Parker and Sandro are all good enough on the ball to get forward when required and to make the passes to begin attacks, they also have the pace to get back and cover the defence. It allows Modric to get forward more and puts him in the kind of positions that he wants to be in with more freedom than the deeper role.

Once again though the trouble was goals. We had loads of possession, chances and again we just didn't score until we changed formation. I'm not saying 442 caused us to score from the corner and we were also benefiting from a Bolton side who wanted a replay like a hole in the head, which showed in the last 20 minutes with a lack of defending. What you can't ignore, however is that for 70 minutes at home against relegation fodder, we couldn't score a goal. That's the trouble with the formation, unless a team's is pressing up the pitch you can't counter attack and if they're sitting back the striker can be left isolated and your chances only come from long range pot shots.

Overall, I think it's important for us to pick a formation and stick with it and 4231 seems to suit most of our players well. Even VDV is looking more lively on the right in a more advanced position with less tracking back, although I think more work needs to be done on getting more players in the box to help Ade out, he's always marked by two or 3 players when a cross comes in.
 
4-1-2-1-2 works for me on FIFA.

I don't think we should have two holding players. We are good enough to be able to outplay most of the PL and playing with Sandro and Parker holding is negative.
 
I think that it screws our balance completely, to be honest.
We end up with everything down the middle, except for the striker who has to go wide as nobody else is, which means that there's nobody in the box.
I'd only play it if Modric was out or we were really desperate to avoid conceding.

The problem is, we don't have anyone that Redknapp trusts to play as back-up for Lennon and we can't directly replace Adebayor in a 4-4-1-1, either.
If either is missing, then we might be better off reverting to a 4-4-2 and dropping van der Vaart, as unappealing as that sounds.
 
I think the best way to play 4-2-3-1 isn't with two holding midfielders at all, but more like...

Parker Modric
Lennon VDV Bale​

Best of all, it offers like-for-like replacements in every area, as demonstrated below...

Sandro Huddlestone
GDS Kranjcar Rose​
 
I agree Croydon, but Redknapp doesn't.
There's no real replacement for Adebayor though, unfortunately.
 
KingHotspur said:
4-1-2-1-2 works for me on FIFA.

I don't think we should have two holding players. We are good enough to be able to outplay most of the PL and playing with Sandro and Parker holding is negative.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't call them holding players, Parker had our best chance in the first half last night and both he and Livermore were able to support our attacks.

PleaseNotPoll said:
I think that it screws our balance completely, to be honest.
We end up with everything down the middle, except for the striker who has to go wide as nobody else is, which means that there's nobody in the box.
I'd only play it if Modric was out or we were really desperate to avoid conceding.

The problem is, we don't have anyone that Redknapp trusts to play as back-up for Lennon and we can't directly replace Adebayor in a 4-4-1-1, either.
If either is missing, then we might be better off reverting to a 4-4-2 and dropping van der Vaart, as unappealing as that sounds.
Click to expand...

I thought Walker and Ekotto gave us good width, Bale and VDV pitched in with some wide play and crosses too but our best passing comes through the middle so that's what we did. 442 doesn't work for us when we have only one winger, who doesn't seem to particularly like staying on the wing, it also makes it more risk for our fullbacks to get forward.
 
We beat Liverpool 4-0 and Newcastle 5-0 playing 4-4-2, YV.
It works when the personnel and opposition are right.

Playing through the middle's fine, but we had players getting in each others' way all the time last night.
Bale and van der Vaart were playing centrally far more than on the wings, so Adebayor had to keep going out there for some space and Modric was cramped and contained.
When we've got two strikers on the pitch, losing one of them to wide positions isn't such a problem.
Our Togolese hitman did a lot of damage to the Geordies from out wide, for example.

Livermore and Parker both played fairly well last night, but they were redundant for large chunks of the game, as they were doing the same job.
Our defence was totally untroubled for the vast majority of the game, which is nice, but we struggled badly to get in behind a poor side.
Our breaks were slowed down dramatically by Adebayor's lack of support and the narrowness of our midfield, so we were often lined up in front of them, passing the ball around and hoping for a mistake.
When cracks did show, their keeper managed to deal with everything we threw at him.
The change of formation seemed to break their resistance.
 
humanbeingincroydon said:
I think the best way to play 4-2-3-1 isn't with two holding midfielders at all, but more like...

Parker Modric
Lennon VDV Bale​

Best of all, it offers like-for-like replacements in every area, as demonstrated below...

Sandro Huddlestone
GDS Kranjcar Rose​
Click to expand...

How many times this season has Redknapp played GDS on the right this season or Kranjcar in the middle though ?
 
There is zero point in putting GDS or Niko in any of your potential line ups as its blatantly obvious by now that they will never be regular starters, or used as backup on a consistent basis.

I myself can see talent in both these players but its never gonna happen.
 
The Boss said:
There is zero point in putting GDS or Niko in any of your potential line ups as its blatantly obvious by now that they will never be regular starters, or used as backup on a consistent basis.

I myself can see talent in both these players but its never gonna happen.
Click to expand...

I did say they would be rotated into the system in case of injury/suspension/fitness - just as Townsend and Carroll would be a couple of seasons down the line (presuming GDS and Pienaar leave this summer) or Livermore could fill in for Parker/Sandro with the current players available.
 
humanbeingincroydon said:
I did say they would be rotated into the system in case of injury/suspension/fitness - just as Townsend and Carroll would be a couple of seasons down the line (presuming GDS and Pienaar leave this summer) or Livermore could fill in for Parker/Sandro with the current players available.
Click to expand...

Wasn't having a go! more just saying I wouldn't even bother mentioning them as arry won't let GDS near the pitch, even when we need some width on the right.

Niko is talented, put in some good performances for us yet he doesn't have the pace to play on the wings and doesn't work in the centre unless given a free role.

I hope for both their careers, they get moved on.
 
PleaseNotPoll said:
We beat Liverpool 4-0 and Newcastle 5-0 playing 4-4-2, YV.
It works when the personnel and opposition are right.

Playing through the middle's fine, but we had players getting in each others' way all the time last night.
Bale and van der Vaart were playing centrally far more than on the wings, so Adebayor had to keep going out there for some space and Modric was cramped and contained.
When we've got two strikers on the pitch, losing one of them to wide positions isn't such a problem.
Our Togolese hitman did a lot of damage to the Geordies from out wide, for example.

Livermore and Parker both played fairly well last night, but they were redundant for large chunks of the game, as they were doing the same job.
Our defence was totally untroubled for the vast majority of the game, which is nice, but we struggled badly to get in behind a poor side.
Our breaks were slowed down dramatically by Adebayor's lack of support and the narrowness of our midfield, so we were often lined up in front of them, passing the ball around and hoping for a mistake.
When cracks did show, their keeper managed to deal with everything we threw at him.
The change of formation seemed to break their resistance.
Click to expand...

442 is all great when we win but when we lose, it highlights the vulnerabilities of the formation. We're always overrun when we play two strikers against a 5 man midfield and since so many Premier League teams play an extra man in midfield is it worth reverting to 442 when it's unsuited to playing away from home and against much of our opposition. Bale moving off the wing happens just as much when we play 4411 and Ade moves out wide all the time too with the same problem in that formation.

We also don't have the players for a 442. Lennon is our only player that can play on the right wing, Bale can't do it unless the game is stretched and whilst Kranjcar might have been present for the 5-0 he really didn't do a lot and was ineffective against Arsenal. We do have an abundance of good midfielders though and I think it's better to utilise them than persist with one winger in a system that needs two. The change in formation didn't make the difference, the goal did and that came from a corner, we were winning corners all game. Bolton were then opened up more easily because they were more open, they took off a defender for a striker.

I thought there were very encouraging signs for the new system last night, maybe I was watching a different game. Parker and Livermore got forward well and offered useful out balls, our passing was better than it's been recently with VDV having a good game on the right of Modric who was able to get on the end of passes in the final third which is very rare in the role he usually plays for us.
 
Squads are overated..really you have a first 11 then the rest.....teams like city create a very strong second team..we just fill in the blanks..that is not a criticism..just an obseravtion.

If we lose Lennon more so than Bale then we are stuck..at least we can replace Bale with Rose and Townsend to kind of resemble some form of attacking prowess from the left...but nobody not even Bale can really replace lennon and his style of play...VDV worked his bolox off last night..and that takes away from him causing havoc around their penalty box due to mental fatigue...Adebayor has done well for me but seems to disapear often when he wants his little breather..that is all ok but them moments hes not intrested , means we waste alot of opportunities..then you see the likes of Bale and Modric trying to fill in for him temporaraily and thats where we lose the dynamics of the team...i think we can play both systems.....but it depends on what mood Ade is in..im not sure he is worth breaking the bank for...after around 60 minutes i was hoping to see Sha on the pitch..i liken him to Defoe but more intelligent as a footballer....once they both came on..the whole dynamics changed...we had eagerness and directness in the last 3rd..Defoe set one up but fluffed an easier lay off and Saha scored an intelligent goal..they both displayed thier strengths and in Defoes case, weakness..in the last 15 minutes..and we won..i might get shot but i dont think for the wage demands..Ade is our man....in a 90 minute team game you cant afford to live off the cliche that'if hes up for it then hes world class'
 
I thought that the system showed the same strengths and weaknesses that it has every other time that we used it, YV.
We dominated possession, whilst lacking creativity and a cutting edge, plus we rarely got round that back of Bolton's defence.
We created some chances and Bogdan played well, but that mirrored the Chelsea, Everton and Man Utd games, where we also played two holding midfielders and struggled to break the opposition down.

I thought that Bale was poor and that van der Vaart had a mixed game.
He often did pretty well himself, but he compressed the game a lot, tightening up the play in front of their defence, where most of our team seemed to be congregating.
If they're going to fill those wide roles, then the Welshman needs to get out onto his wing and bloody stay there and he needs to do his bit defensively too, which he's become lax at.
 
the amount of times the crowd egged him on and urged him to 'run back' or for that matter...'show yaself for BAE' was far too often PNP,with regards Bale

When i say VDV had a good game ..it is because you can see in games he has the sense to run back and support when he sees some of his fellow attackers not doing that..for me that is a big positive...and a little action that contributes to the whole.
 
Van der Vaart covers a deceptively large amount of ground in every game, Dona.
He runs out of steam, somewhat understandably, but he's often the player that runs the farthest in the first half.

In the free role that he has in our normal formation and system, that's definitely a big plus.
It makes him virtually impossible to pick up and overloads markers on other players quite a lot.
When he's got defensive responsibilities and we're playing with Modric in the middle and the Dutchman on the wing, then it can be pretty negative.
It leaves Walker exposed too often and crams the middle of the park, interfering with the space that the Croatian has to work with.
When we're using two holding players, it's less of an issue, especially if our left winger decides to stop trying to emulate Messi and Ronaldo.
 
Squads are overated..really you have a first 11 then the rest
Click to expand...

To be fair, its hard to disagree with this, in certain situations as often the backups are just "names" they rarely come in, do a great job and then go back to being a squad player.

Obviously in certain situations it works, when you have young, hungry players OR experienced pros that are happy to play the squad game.

However overall, pros of today just don't understand the squad system so its hard to build a great squad unless you have an arab with a blank cheque book.
 
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