Maldonado vs Grosjean & Hamilton vs Maldonado...

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BrightLampShade said:
Maybe this:
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As I have said the fron stills do not give a true perspective of the alignment of the cars this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqEPJTEbfjc gives a truer refelection of the reletive positions of the cars.

Depends on personal perspective, much like the safe following distance on motorways for example which is say 50m in a normal car and about 3mm in an Audi ;)
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Everyone's perception is their reality. There will always be shades of grey which what make the sport and these forums so stimulating. I am a little concerned that we are getting a little Health & Saftey, accidents/racing incidents happen, for me it is more the conduct of the drivers which is why I suspect we are discussing these 2 incidents - Moldando being the common factor.
 
Smithers:2506178 said:
I agree with this, but that has to depend on the corner in question, i.e. is there enough room at racing speed. I think Grosjean proved that there was more than enough room in the corner at Melbourne which is why Maldonado is being questioned. In Monaco there was very little chance of 2 cars getting through the corner, especially with the barriers. So if Maldonado is to blame at Monaco (which I firmly disagree with) where was Maldonado to go? I'm not sure that even if he wanted to (which is another debate) how he could have given Lewis the room without running into the barrier?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK3vccskL9s&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Very similar move by Hamilton there. both came out in piece and both made the corner.
 
Smithers said:
The Grosjean/Maldondo stills are interesting but in freeze frame it is very difficult to see whether the steering input changes, however it does look like their was very little he could do to avoid it and as stated in my early posts I felt it was an unsporting gesture to say the least by Maldonado.

In relation to the Hammilton/Maldonado the stills you have used dont show the actual point of contact (the one you have used is the still after the contact), the one you need is the still before which is where Lewis's FRONT wheel hits Maldanado's REAR wheel. They are also front facing stills which do not give a true image of positioning like the side angle images used in the Grosjean incident. Lewis is also off the track kerbing which Maldando is using as the apex point and would never had made the corner at the entry speed/angle. Hence the 2 incidents have no similarity whats so ever and I think that is the discussion we are having.

In addition, Maldonado/Grosjen were full of fuel and Maldonado/Hammilton were empty - this has a massive bearing on braking points and understeer etc....

I admire your dilegence in finding evidence to support your claim but the basic fact which you dont seem to acknowledge is that in the Grosjean incident the corner was won by Maldando, in the Hamilton incident the corner was not won! What happened after the corner is open to debate and I think pretty much everyone agrees that Maldando has exceeded the sporting conduct. But, not one memeber of the team, the drivers or the pundits have felt the need to point fingers, so maybe we are all blowing it our of proportion?

Someone else did comment that had Grosjean not damaged his front wheel then there woudl be no debate and I think that is correct.
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Ok, we're going round in circles here. I've already said and shown the positioning of the cars prior to turn in, the photos show that they are pretty much the same (and both from the front, don't see how you think the grosjean ones are "side on") but when Hamilton realises Maldonado is going to turn on him he brakes more but he can't just disappear!

Maldonado has already started to turn it, position-wise, VERY similar to Grosjean incident...

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Hamilton, having realised Maldonado is turning way too early and actually about to cut the corner backs out as much as possible and hence the wheel to wheel contact...

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I don't see how you can say they have "no similarity what so ever", the only real difference is that grosjean didn't turn in on Maldonado, the photos I put up yesterday show that they were of very similar position ie, alongside to a degree but certainly not in front.

You also said that if Maldonado had yielded he wouldn't have made the corner?...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK3vccskL9s&feature=youtube_gdata_player

That's how it's done and who can argue with this chaps race craft & experience?

There are so many cases similar to this...

Hamilton Button @ China iirc above, Hamilton didn't turn in because he knew a crash would ensue.
Massa Hamilton India, massa turns in, contact, massa penalty.
Schumacher Villeneuve Jerez '97, Schumacher turns in, contact, Schumacher disqualified from the WHOLE SEASON!
Schumacher Hill Adelaide '94, Schumacher turns in, contact.
Senna Prost Suzuka '90, Senna turns in on Prost
Prost Senna Suzuka '89, Prost turns in on Senna
Piquet Mansell Silverstone '87, Piquet doesn't turn in because he knew what the outcome would be.

For me, they are all too blame for contact if the inside person is along side and has brought the car down to the same speed as the driver who turns in, the person can't just disappear.

But anyway, can't see this going any further so....

Senna: Snapped steering column or oversteer?...

Oversteer!
 
Yes we are going round in circles because you refuse to look or use the onboard footage. The main point here is that 1 incident happend prior to the corner and the other incident happened after the corner - you cant dispute this and that is why they are fundemtally different. The picture you have used quite clearly show Lewis behinh Maldonado at the kerb (apex point) and hence he is the lead driver. Your justification that Lewis was backing out is a view point and is not a fact unless supported by the telemetary, something the stewards would have had and we are not privy to. Also if Lewis was trying to avoid the incident then why didnt he take to the inside of the kerb and avoid the accident?

Maldonado turned into Hammilton and Grosjean did not turn into Maldonado, so how can the incidents be compared, except to say Maldando was at fault in both occassions. I also find it strange that you would choose to use a clip with Hammilton in to justify your decession - for me it smacks more of Exonerating Hammilton than actually convicting Maldanado. I also think that if the Grosjean incident involved a British driver we wouldnt be having this discussion.

As you say we disagree on this discussion and probably aren't going to see eye to eye on it anytime soon. I think you have made some very valid points, but maybe failed to acknowledge others or maybe just mine I dont know. I dont for one minute believe that I am 100% right all of the time but I think I hold a balanced opinion on most things and on reflection I do unerstand your concern on the Grosjean incident. I think maybe an outside view by somebody like Cosi would shed some light that we maybe to closed to see at present?
 
How did hamilton get away without a pen for wiping out Maldonado there. The stewards love hamilton really he should have been blacked flagged about 2-3 times last season.
 
Smithers said:
Yes we are going round in circles because you refuse to look or use the onboard footage.

where have i refused?...

The main point here is that 1 incident happend prior to the corner and the other incident happened after the corner - you cant dispute this and that is why they are fundemtally different.
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chapper said:
just because the contact happened at different places doesn't mean they are totally different situations.
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Smithers said:
The picture you have used quite clearly show Lewis behinh Maldonado at the kerb (apex point) and hence he is the lead driver.

Not behind, 3/4 alongside which i have stated several times...

Your justification that Lewis was backing out is a view point and is not a fact unless supported by the telemetary, something the stewards would have had and we are not privy to.
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Or possibly resolved by looking at the pictures where he is alongside in the braking zone and then clearly
drops back a bit when Maldonado turns in. In fact, heres another couple of screen grabs...

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^^^ from YOUR video mate, the video that i've refused to acknowedge and yet you missed my point on both this, my video and screen grabs...

Smithers said:
Also if Lewis was trying to avoid the incident then why didnt he take to the inside of the kerb and avoid the accident?

perhaps he assumed that he wouldn't come all the way over ala schumacher above, that he would "flinch" towards him. or maybe because it happened so fast.

Maldonado turned into Hammilton and Grosjean did not turn into Maldonado, so how can the incidents be compared, except to say Maldando was at fault in both occassions. I also find it strange that you would choose to use a clip with Hammilton in to justify your decession - for me it smacks more of Exonerating Hammilton than actually convicting Maldanado.

or possibly because it was the same corner on the same day by the same driver?... why is that so strange? interesting that your almost on the verge of "fanboy" accusations

I also think that if the Grosjean incident involved a British driver we wouldnt be having this discussion. why?

As you say we disagree on this discussion and probably aren't going to see eye to eye on it anytime soon. I think you have made some very valid points, but maybe failed to acknowledge others or maybe just mine I dont know. I dont for one minute believe that I am 100% right all of the time but I think I hold a balanced opinion on most things and on reflection I do unerstand your concern on the Grosjean incident. I think maybe an outside view by somebody like Cosi would shed some light that we maybe to closed to see at present?
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I'm not trying to exonerate hamilton, just highlight in inaccuracies in the stewards and the general publics view's here. For me, there comes a point where the driver on the inside has a right to the corner how can hamilton be in the wrong here and not against massa at india?

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when hamilton left his nose in at the chicane on the first lap of monza with massa last year that was his fault as he was not alongside enough to stake any sort of claim for the corner, when your as far up as maldonado on grosjean, hamilton on maldonado or hamilton on massa it becomes different.

Ultimately there are several points i'm trying to make here,

you can't just turn in on someone when they are a good way up the inside of you

given that the two situations had the cars at very similar positions, why is it that maldonado shouldn't have yielded and yet grosjean should? (and by some opinions yielded twice)

if hamilton is responsible for the damage to maldonado, how can maldonado not be responsible for grosjean?

mate, i'm now requoting things i've already said and referring to pics and vids already posted so lets just draw a line under it...

haters gonna hate :laugh:


PS. any thoughts on the Senna question folks?...
 
Chapper - I'm not a hater infact far from it.

Maybe we are misunderstanding each other, because I have to agree with you that the stewards are very inconsistant with their decessions which makes it very difficult for both the drivers and the fans and their have been unfair penalties dished out for decent racing incidents.

or possibly because it was the same corner on the same day by the same driver?... why is that so strange? interesting that your almost on the verge of "fanboy" accusations - I dont really understand this comment because 1 corner was in Melboure in 2012 and the other corners was in Monaco in 2011 with different driver combinations, hence how can they be the same corner, same day and same driver?

you can't just turn in on someone when they are a good way up the inside of you

given that the two situations had the cars at very similar positions, why is it that maldonado shouldn't have yielded and yet grosjean should? (and by some opinions yielded twice)

if hamilton is responsible for the damage to maldonado, how can maldonado not be responsible for grosjean?


Again I dont really understand this either. I agree that you cant just turn in on somebody but my 3/4 and your 3/4 seem a differnet interpretation. I view 3/4 to mean the attempting passing car is 3/4 along side (nose cone to front wheel) as opposed to the other way round which I would class as 1/4 or 1/2. I think that is just an easy misunderstanding and for that I apologise.

I never suggested Grosjen should have yielded, the fact that he did was his choice. If he turned in and the collision was at the apex then it would have similarities to Monaco. I never said that Maldanado was not responsible for the impact (or if I have that was not my intention), my view was that it was difficult to avoid once he had run Grosjen deep and wide (either by design, mistake etc) and the collision was potentially unavoidable at that point - a racing incident. If you are inferring that Maldonado should not have made the overtake because he couldnt make it stick and Grosjean was entitled/should off closed the door then with hindsight that is fair comment, however that would then suggest that Hammilton should not have attempted to overtake on the same premiss?
 
i was only kidding with the hater bit mate, thats why i put up the little smiley.

yeah you're right, bit of miscomm here and there...

Maldonado turned into Hammilton and Grosjean did not turn into Maldonado, so how can the incidents be compared, except to say Maldando was at fault in both occassions. I also find it strange that you would choose to use a clip with Hammilton in to justify your decession - for me it smacks more of Exonerating Hammilton than actually convicting Maldanado.

or possibly because it was the same corner on the same day by the same driver?... why is that so strange? interesting that your almost on the verge of "fanboy" accusations

i thought you were referring to the schumi vid! not 100% sure why i remembered the monaco incident, most probably because of the maldonado link, with him near enough being on both sides of the fence.

i initially estimated it as halfway to 3/4 along side and certainly looking at the braking zone he's defo more than 1/4 and probably more than 1/2 along side maldonado.

not all the points were directed at you mate, some were just to the general opinion regarding yielding.

i wonder what debates malaysia will throw up! <party>
 
:emoticon-0150-hands

No worries mate and like I said, I do now hold a different view of the Grosjean incident after your comments and video stills!
 
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