Expectations

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Norfolkbhoy said:
Don't want to harp on about this (but going to anyway!). the "punching above our weight" relates to our current situation. Resources ARE completely relevant as they determine the players you can attract to the club.

As Redruth correctly states we have got excellent players DESPITE not paying over the top prices for them. We have, in essence, done more with less hence we are punching above our weight.

We may be the 12th best supported club in the country but this counts for little in comparison with having access to Sky premiership monies or having a multi-squillionaire owner as Man City/Chelsea have. Consider Blackburn - we are considerably better supported and have a far superior record over the past 30 years yet they have won the Premier League - why? Because they had Jack Walker's megabucks and could buy the likes of Shearer and Sutton. At that time they were a heavyweight club, now that others have similar backing they are back to the middleweight division.

Currently we cannot compete with most other premiership clubs in terms of the personnel we can afford or attract ot the club. This will change assuming that we can stay up for a few years. Then we could be like Wigan with £10m to buy a forward. We may choose not to do so and to keep with the policy of buying good young players with protential but it is not liklely that PL can keep pulling rabbits out of the hat.

I don't think anyone is saying that we are not where we deserve to be or that Norwich are not a Premiership club just that we are doing rather well considering we have had successive promotions without the beneift of being able to buy expensive "big-name" players as Man City and Fulham (the last two clubs to rise so quickly) were able to do on the way up.

I don't think that anyone on this board has a "plucky little Norwich" mentality. We want our club to go on to do great things. We want a bigger stadium to facilitate this. We want to be challenging for cups and European football but some of us accept that this will take some time to achieve and that to do this we do need to consolidate our position in the premiership. I don't htink that any of this is as controversial as Redruth seems to think.
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I don't intend to be controversial at all Norfolkboy. I just don't believe the hype about football particularly Premiership football. I think the top teams and their expensive stars are overrated and over publicised. 2004 the gap was immense and it showed. We deserved to go down on the back of some pretty poor performances. We didn't have the players, style or reluctantly the manager to make it. But the stupid money being paid by clubs doesn't guarantee success. How can Chelsea have had 8 managers in 9 years when they have won so much? Because they don't have a clue as to the real value of football itself. If your £20M players don't work what do you do? Go out and buy £30M players? Its a bloated overinflated sham dictated by foreign owners.
We have been totally outplayed only twice I believe. ManC and Arsenal, teams who play a possession game. Apart from that there hasn't been a game where I didn't think at some stage during the 90 minutes that we could turn it around or conversely guarantee a win by scoring more goals. And the reason is we respect but don't fear. And thats what supporters should do.
I believe before every game that we can win. I don't expect to win them all of course but I expect us to win against teams below us. Thats not stupid or arrogant just the level I believe our club has achieved. If I still lived in Norwich I would go to every game and my expectations would be high, positive and I personally would be gutted if those expectations weren't met. However I would be pragmatic enough to realise I would be gutted a few times.
 
Arsenal alsos played us off the park, they very nearly destroyed us in the first 25 minutes. I can't believe Reds's view, they seem completely non sensical to me. The top 6/7 teams are the ones that have spent the most money on transffers and in wages. The gap between players relative to their transfer fee is relatively small in most cases, there is a exponential increase in salaries relative to ability, but those addded extra little bits of quality make alot of difference. I am aware that this may make no sense as I'm drunk in Schipol airport.
 
Longsightcanary said:
Arsenal alsos played us off the park, they very nearly destroyed us in the first 25 minutes. I can't believe Reds's view, they seem completely non sensical to me. The top 6/7 teams are the ones that have spent the most money on transffers and in wages. The gap between players relative to their transfer fee is relatively small in most cases, there is a exponential increase in salaries relative to ability, but those addded extra little bits of quality make alot of difference. I am aware that this may make no sense as I'm drunk in Schipol airport.
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Going Dutch eh???

<sorry>
 
Longsightcanary said:
Arsenal alsos played us off the park, they very nearly destroyed us in the first 25 minutes. I can't believe Reds's view, they seem completely non sensical to me. The top 6/7 teams are the ones that have spent the most money on transffers and in wages. The gap between players relative to their transfer fee is relatively small in most cases, there is a exponential increase in salaries relative to ability, but those addded extra little bits of quality make alot of difference. I am aware that this may make no sense as I'm drunk in Schipol airport.
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I've just read this and I'm the nonsensical one?
On a more serious note, the top six or seven have always been above us even when players were on £100 pound a week and the only foreigners had Welsh, Scottish or Irish accents. How many players did we used to sell to bigger clubs? We had sold more players for £1m than any other club in the 80/90s.
And we haven't done too well results wise against them this season either have we. In nine games against those teams we have accrued five points and that includes 3 against Newcastle. However, in 19 games against other teams we have accrued 31 points. And done the double over 3 of those teams. So if we were punching above our weight surely we would have accrued more than 5 points against the top seven?
 
I agree that stupid money does not buy success, that no amount of money can guarantee success and that lots of teams spend crazy money on transfers and wages chasing success. However when was the last time a team won the league without a £20m player? The top clubs can afford to throw £20m or £30m at a player and have him warm thier bench as another similarly valued player takes his place. Clubs like ours do not have this luxury. If Ryan Bennett does not play a lot and play well then this would be a huge blow as a £3m investment for us is huge.

Only one team can win the league or any other trophy, only seventeen can stay up. Regardless of how well we do we have to accept that if our prize players germinate into a title threatening team then one of the bigger clubs will make us an offer we can't refuse and the squad will be weakened - remember our last great team were dismantled by the loss of Sutton and Fox? I am not saying I am happy with this or that it is right, just that these are the facts of life in modern football.

Where we are at the moment is fantastic and I see no point in limiting our expectations to avoiding relegation every year but I do think that we have to temper our ambition with a shot of reality in the knowledge that for better or worse football is a big money business and generally the stronger teams financially will be in a position to out-muscle the "smaller/lesser" clubs.
 
sorry redruth, i think you are miles off on this. resources are massively vital to determining whether a team is underachieving or overachieving. we definitely fall into the latter category.

its blatant.
 
If we were punching at our weight we wouldn't be ahead of of our 7 year plan that was set out two years a go. If we were following it we would prbably be challenging for a play-off position this season after consolidating our position in the Championship last season. No one expected us to reach the Premier League after two seasons and no one expected us to do this well. We have surprised many pundits, as annoying as they can be, therefore we are punching above our weight.

Everyone was expecting us to be in the bottom three at this point, but we are not.
 
I'm sorry, you're all terrified of the big clubs. They out resource us, they will buy our players, is nonsense. They always have been able to. Football didn't start with the Premier League.
The rate of our progress is irrelevant. It happened so go with it. We deserve to be where we are based on results.
Get rid of this inferior mentality. We will live or die by what we do on Sunday against Newcastle irrespective of how much their squad cost or the size of their crowd.
Anyway I fell strong about this subject but thats my last word on the subject.
 
Like everyone else, I would be quite happy to finish 17th in the premier league this year. But, being in 12th position, I don't think we are punching above our weight. At the beginning of the season, I looked at the fixtures and honestly thought that, with the squad we had and the additions Lambo brought in over the summer, we were quite capable of a mid table finish on 45 points.
 
I for one will not or would not have been happy to finish 17th. Just cast your minds back to the end of last season and the stupid scrap at the bottom of the Premiership, anyone could have gone down, some stayed up by other teams winning or drawing or goals scored, or some other obscure means FFS. Would any of you be really happy in that senario? We've been relegated, it ****ing well hurts, and I don't want to be anywhere near that situation again no matter what the circumstances. We are where we are because we deserve to be there, it's not luck or a fluke, but the problem with that is that expectations are on a par, and so they should be. Why supporters assume that we will be relegated or survive by the skin of teeth is quite astonishing, especially as most of the post's on here are in the positive. Great manager, great set of committed players, great support, great CEO, why not great expectations?
I was dissapointed with the Wigan game, it was the result more than anything, the performance wasn't brilliant, but the commitment and effort was there, so you have to look at it as a reasonable score line. I thought Surman had a complete stinker, and Croft's wasn't on his game, Hoops lost the ball too many times for me, but on the whole the team tried. I would just like to add at this juncture, that Morison looked a different player from his last few games, I just wish his header had gone in, it would have given him a bit more confidence.
I have posted on another thread, that I lost count of fans making comments like, "if they're going to play like that I'm not coming again", why would they think or say that? I've seen worse this season! But it is what the expectation level is, simply because of our performances and league position. I don't think people should be berated for having expectations.
Redruth, I think you made a lot of sensible and valid comments, I think us older supporters see things a little different to the younger ones, but we are ALL fans, right?

ILD OTBC
 
ILD

Perhaps I didn't phrase it correctly, but surely Premiership survival was the main aim this season. I did say, however, that I don't think we are punching above our weight, and I am not surprised at our current position. We are where we are on merit. We have played, on the whole, good football with enthusiasm and passion. We have had our off days, obviously, but no teams play 100 percent every week. I always believed that we could cut it in this league, and I still think we can get 45 points this season. Sorry if I sounded negative, that wasn't my intention.
 
I don't understand at all why people are getting hot under the collar about my comment of "punching above our weight".

Let me put it simply:

We are in the Premiership, on merit, in the position we currently are as determined by our results. Nobody is arguing over this as it is entirely factual.

However, if you took any other club bar ours at the start of the season and said:

1. It is their first year in the premier league
2. Two season ago they were in League 1
3. They have made no big signings - their most expensive player will cost £3m and will not play until March
4. The squad is made up almost exclusively of players who have zero premier league experience

What would your expectation, based on the above, for any other team be? You would expect them to have a tough season to stay in the league even given your high opinion of the players and managemnt team as there was no track record of achievement at the top level. You, as a supporter would hope the club would do well and compete but surely your expectations would be relatively modest.

Moving back to our situation we have done appreciably better than expectations ergo we are punching above our weight. This has nothing to do with fear of bigger teams, being down on the club or not being supportive it is just how i see things.

Roll the clock forward five years and we have stayed in the premiership redeveloped FCR and PL has continued to invest in the squad. If we are sitting 12th then it could be argued that we would be punching below our weight. I don't think that I can make my point any clearer.
 
i think people are getting in a muddle. 'punching above our weight' is totally different from 'where we deserve to be'. at the end of the season we will finish where we deserve to be - there has never been a season where this hasn't been the case. however, punching above our weight is different. wigan have punched above their weight as a club for the past 8 years but stay in the top flight deservedly due to a wealthy owner backing them and good players and management. norwich as a club should be able to sustain a better team than wigan over a number of years - it doesn't mean we deserve to. we are currently 12th on merit and if we finish 8th it will be on merit and if we finish 17th the same applies. we have punched above our weight if we stay up because our resources are minimal compared to even wigan whose wage cap is pretty big. swansea too have punched above their weight but they too deserve to finish high up the league due to application and the way they've been managed. liverpool for instance, have massively underachieved for the resources they've had at their disposal and should be more than 6 points clear of norwich at this stage. they deserve to be 7th because thats the level they've played at this season but they have still punched below their weight this season. this all probably makes no sense as now i'm getting in a muddle!
 
Norfolkbhoy said:
I don't understand at all why people are getting hot under the collar about my comment of "punching above our weight".

Let me put it simply:

We are in the Premiership, on merit, in the position we currently are as determined by our results. Nobody is arguing over this as it is entirely factual.

However, if you took any other club bar ours at the start of the season and said:

1. It is their first year in the premier league
2. Two season ago they were in League 1
3. They have made no big signings - their most expensive player will cost £3m and will not play until March
4. The squad is made up almost exclusively of players who have zero premier league experience

What would your expectation, based on the above, for any other team be? You would expect them to have a tough season to stay in the league even given your high opinion of the players and managemnt team as there was no track record of achievement at the top level. You, as a supporter would hope the club would do well and compete but surely your expectations would be relatively modest.

Moving back to our situation we have done appreciably better than expectations ergo we are punching above our weight. This has nothing to do with fear of bigger teams, being down on the club or not being supportive it is just how i see things.

Roll the clock forward five years and we have stayed in the premiership redeveloped FCR and PL has continued to invest in the squad. If we are sitting 12th then it could be argued that we would be punching below our weight. I don't think that I can make my point any clearer.
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i'm with you norfolkbhoy - as far as i'm concerned there is no debate to be had! we have punched above our weight this season but there is absolutely nothing wrong with that and certainly takes nothing away from how the team have done. if anything, it makes it all the more special!
 
VectisCanary said:
ILD

Perhaps I didn't phrase it correctly, but surely Premiership survival was the main aim this season. I did say, however, that I don't think we are punching above our weight, and I am not surprised at our current position. We are where we are on merit. We have played, on the whole, good football with enthusiasm and passion. We have had our off days, obviously, but no teams play 100 percent every week. I always believed that we could cut it in this league, and I still think we can get 45 points this season. Sorry if I sounded negative, that wasn't my intention.
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Vectis, No need to apologies to me fellow fan. It wasn't aimed at you in particular, expectations are what they are, we all see things on different levels, it spins the world. I'm enjoying the ride like most of the rest, and I will have a whinge occasionally, that's why places like this exist, so we can air our views, if our views were all the same then there would be no point to this at all.

ILD OTBC :emoticon-0150-hands
 
ilovedelia said:
Vectis, No need to apologies to me fellow fan. It wasn't aimed at you in particular, expectations are what they are, we all see things on different levels, it spins the world. I'm enjoying the ride like most of the rest, and I will have a whinge occasionally, that's why places like this exist, so we can air our views, if our views were all the same then there would be no point to this at all.

ILD OTBC :emoticon-0150-hands
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Cheers ILD. Living in the wilds of the IOW, is nice to have a decent discussion with fellow fans.
 
Superman wears Grant Holt pyjamas in bed said:
i've said it before and i'll say it again. if people go to football matches to purely be entertained then they are watching the wrong game. football as a sport can be turgid at times, but its all part of the game. we go because we are fans of the club. we wouldn't change clubs just cos the football is poor, we stick with them regardless because they are our club. some teams play well more often than others - i'd say we are one of those under lambert - but its impossible to be at the top of your game over 38 games a season. even the truly great sides can't do that! if you are a norwich supporter you should be realistic. we cannot turn up and roll teams over just because they are bottom of the league. wigan have had some very good results and some very poor results. it was obvious from sunday why they are bottom - they have no cutting edge. they are still a capable side, just as we are. you don't get to the premier league and stay there for 8 years if you are not. expectancy should be high - it means we are doing well. if expectancy levels drop thats a bad sign. but high expectancy levels don't give us the right to act like idiots just because the team didn't play at their best. people will say they want to be entertained and they have the right to be entertained and expect a victory because they've paid a lot of money to watch it. well sorry, but thats not how football works and if you don't know that by now then perhaps football is not suited to your mentality - try the theatre instead <ok>
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i do go to be purely entertained but to me the unpredictability is what creates entertaiment
 
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