The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 26th May)

  • Please bear with us on the new site integration and fixing any known bugs over the coming days. If you can not log in please try resetting your password and check your spam box. If you have tried these steps and are still struggling email [email protected] with your username/registered email address
  • Log in now to remove adverts - no adverts at all to registered members!

ellandback

Well-Known Member
Forum Moderator
Mar 30, 2011
63,356
34,989
113
Southampton
You must log in or register to see images


Good Morning. It's Tuesday 26th May, and here are the latest headlines from Elland Road

Forest and Leeds fight it out over Hackney

Nottingham Forest are ready to move swiftly in their pursuit of Middlesbrough's Hayden Hackney, with the Premier League side eager to get early business done before the summer transfer window properly heats up. The 23-year-old midfielder has emerged as a top target for Forest as they prepare for their first full season under manager Vítor Pereira, who secured the club's Premier League survival with five points to spare despite finishing in 16th place. Pereira enters the new campaign with just 12 months remaining on his contract, though he at least has the security of planning for the 2026/27 season after an encouraging end to the current campaign that saw Forest reach the Europa League semi-finals.

However, Forest face significant competition for Hackney's Signature. Leeds United have long admired the Championship Player of the Year and possess several factors that could give them an advantage in the race. Hackney has lived in Redcar his entire life, meaning a move to Elland Road would require minimal disruption to his personal life, with the journey to Thorp Arch taking less than an hour by car. Perhaps more importantly, his former Middlesbrough captain and mentor Jonny Howson has returned to Leeds as a coach, creating a reunion that must appeal to him on a personal level.

Middlesbrough have made clear they will not let their prized asset leave cheaply, with the club set to demand around £25million from any interested party. The Championship side point to Alex Scott's move from Bristol City to Bournemouth in 2023 for the same fee as evidence that Hackney should command a similar valuation. No formal bid has been submitted yet, but Forest are prepared to accelerate talks having missed out on European football despite their cup exploits. Leeds could also use Joel Piroe as leverage. Boro identified the striker as their top priority this summer having failed to gain promotion.

You must log in or register to see images


Super computer reveals where Leeds should have finished

When you strip away the drama of last-minute goals, a clearer picture of Leeds United's Premier League campaign emerges; one that suggests the club's return to the top flight was even more successful than their 14th-place finish implies. According to Opta analyst's sophisticated supercomputer, which simulates each match 10,000 times based on expected goals (xG) metrics, Daniel Farke's side should have finished 11th in the table.

What makes this analysis particularly compelling is the context provided by those heart-breaking late goals that so often tilted momentum against Leeds throughout the season. When you factor in the 14 goals conceded after the 90th minute, a statistic that reflects both the aggressive nature of Farke's game plan and the unfortunate timing of opposition strikes, it becomes clear that Leeds were victims of cruel timings. These late collapses cost them precious points and a higher league position, yet the underlying numbers suggest their overall performance warranted a more favourable reward.

Perhaps the most satisfying narrative to emerge from this statistical deep-dive is the vindication of Leeds United's recruitment strategy, which faced considerable scepticism last summer. The club invested £100m yet the criticism was loud and persistent, with many questioning whether these signings possessed the quality required for England's most competitive division. The numbers speak resoundingly in their favour, seven of the ten summer acquisitions proved to be exceptional signings, delivering value far beyond their price tags and forming the backbone of a team that statistically outperformed its final position.

This convergence of statistical evidence and recruitment success tells us something important about the direction of Leeds United under both the ownership of 49ers Enterprises and Daniel Farke. The German has created a framework that maximizes the potential of his players while demanding enormous physical and tactical commitment. The recruitment department identified individuals suited to this demanding system, players who could both contribute to Leeds' ambitious style and develop into genuine Premier League talents. That seven out of ten signings exceeded expectations is a remarkable hit rate by any measure, particularly for a club operating under a strict transfer budget.

You must log in or register to see images

Jekyll at Home, Hyde on the Road​

Leeds United's season defied logical explanation, finishing a respectable 14th place with 47 points while simultaneously presenting one of the most puzzling statistical paradoxes in recent Premier League memory. The Whites transformed Elland Road into a fortress where goals flowed freely and defensive solidity reigned supreme, yet the moment they ventured beyond Yorkshire's borders, the entire operation collapsed into chaos. At home, Leeds boasted a Goal Difference of +8, scoring 29 times while conceding just 21 goals, a record that would have looked perfectly at home among the league's upper echelons.

Away from familiar surroundings, however, that figure plummeted to a catastrophic -15, with Leeds managing a mere two victories on the road all campaign. To everyone's surprise, one of those was the 2-1 victory at Old Trafford where Leeds played Manchester Utd off the park. The true extent of their away day despair emerged in those painful leads that dissolved into defeat, none more devastating than their collapses at St James' Park, where Leeds somehow found themselves ahead on three separate occasions against Newcastle, only to witness the Magpies mount an improbable 4-3 comeback, with two goals coming in extra time.

You must log in or register to see images
 
I'm undecided on whether the concession of late goals was due to tiredness or switching off for other reasons. A bit more mental focus is needed as a number of our players have moments in each game where they seem to be wondering if they've left the gas on instead of focussing on the game.
In other news, WHU and Wolves both had some decent players we should go after eg Mane, though I expect Bowen to go to one of the top 8 teams if he becomes available.
 
On the latter point, if my memory serves, it reminds me of our first EPL season when as the Champions we were similarly terrible away from home.
 
On the latter point, if my memory serves, it reminds me of our first EPL season when as the Champions we were similarly terrible away from home.
Just for you Rover, that season is the worst we have ever done in the home v away points total, followed by the season after, even though we finished 5th in the league.
You must log in or register to see images
 
I'm undecided on whether the concession of late goals was due to tiredness or switching off for other reasons. A bit more mental focus is needed as a number of our players have moments in each game where they seem to be wondering if they've left the gas on instead of focussing on the game.
In other news, WHU and Wolves both had some decent players we should go after eg Mane, though I expect Bowen to go to one of the top 8 teams if he becomes available.
both in my view,

other reasons:
- table pressure/fear of mistakes leading to panicky kicking the ball away/out which in turn creates more pressure being
- squad balance... we're better equipped to bring subs on to change a game positively than shut up shop (since we started playing 3 centre halves)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Brizzlewhite
Re expected points - we were top half of the table all season. I think 11th is about as low as we've been. We just got more efficient or luckier as the season went on, our performances weren't really any better.

Re away form, we just turned wins into draws and draws into defeats... even allowing for that until the last game of the season we'd been on a long unbeaten run... just too many draws.
 
You must log in or register to see images

We also scored a lot of goals in 90+ time, as you would expect the majority of these were at home, whilst we conceded 9 goals in 90+ time, again the majority of these were away from home,, 3 of which were penalties. We didn't get any 90+ injury time goals from penalties.

Attacking wise both home and away, we seemed to be fairly consistent both in the first and second halves. Defensively there was a noticeable decline in the second half, where at home we conceded 3 times as many goals as we did in the 1st half, and away from home, just over double the amount of goals we conceded in the 1st half.

Now whether that is due to deliberate tactics, the tiredness of certain players and the cliche that our subs wouldn't appear until the 70th minute, or just an unconscious decision from the players to try and sit back and protect what we have, is all open for debate. Many times in the match thread Emu mentioned in the second half that the midfield was starting to sit deeper, and their were plenty of occasions when you could see Farke on the touchline, telling the team to push up. As Milky alluded to, knowing that we were always within the relegation zone brings an unconscious cautiousness to either protect a lead or a point, which leads to increased pressure on players which leads to an inevitable mistake. I think that is shown in the numbers above when you see that the least amount of goals we scored overall, was in the 76-90 minute period.

Basically when you take into account the points that we earned from goals scored in the 90+ minute compared to goals conceded in the 90+ minute, we lost a total of 1 point. The sickener was of course Newcastle, when we went from winning 3 points to gaining 0

You must log in or register to see images
 
Great stuff Aski, Personally I feel our second half struggles are exaggerated because we make up for relative lack of individual talent (not a criticism of the players, just a view supported by transfer values) with a high intensity game where we outrun opponents and hustle them off the ball. No matter what your fitness levels are there will be a price to pay later. Caveat to that is we manage to find some juice when we're chasing the games so its not all physical. That's where the 'unconscious cautiousness' comes in... ie the opposition sit back to protect what they have too.

As you mention... Farke is often seen urging his players up the pitch, in post match interviews he swears the players aren't instructed to sit back. My hope is:
- we get a better start to next season to remove some table anxiety
- recruit in such a manner that we have capable fresh legs to come on in positions that help us see out games better
 
I think recruitment will be important, obviously. We need a player who chases around like Aaronson but can 'put his foot on the ball' when needed. I think that's the quality we've needed for ages. He definitely wouldn't be cheap though.
I do worry that teams will be able to handle us better next year and we might not be so lucky with injuries.
I have been impressed with our recruitment for this season so hope it continues
 
The late goal concessions infuriated me all season. Its not the fact that we sit back, it's how we sit back that frustrates me. I know me and Milky disagree on this but it's a tactical fault imo.

We sit back but we lack any danger on the counter. Wing backs tuck in too tight allowing easy crosses in to our box. The opposition squeeze up and DCL ends up in our defensive third sometimes even in our area. Then there is no out ball. So we hoof the ball anywhere and sit deeper. Rinse and repeat until we are all hemmed in to our 6 yard box and you end up with 'unlucky' deflection goals or it going in off someone's arse, knee or a keeper flapping. At West Ham it was the ever reliable Rodon just not jumping. Panic just ensues.

That's tactical naivety and even a bit of fear. You've got to keep teams honest even in a low block. You must offer some threat on the break and Farke let's them drop back too deep. Just my opinion.
 
Do any of you who get to watch the U21s think that any will make the breakthrough next season?
In short, No.

However, doesn't mean they are ****. Our u21's are more like an u19 side. They are all very young. Im not 100% on any of them making it as a Leeds first teamer in the PL.

Some stand out talents from that age group include...

1. Rory Mahady. 19. GK. Has been on loan with Scunthorpe second half of this season. Scotland u21 keeper. Already has senior first team football albeit on loan in the national league. Had a few man of the match performances too which is very impressive for a kid goalkeeper. Way ahead of schedule in his development. Excellent reflexes, good shot stopper, commands his area and seems fairly calm and composed at all times. Decent distribution. I think this kid has a very bright future but not as first choice at Leeds for a few years. Only downside would be his size. He is not the biggest keeper. He'd be my number one pick to make it at a decent level.

2. Harry Gray. 17. Forward. On loan at struggling Rotherham. I know a straight talking Rotherham fan who summed him up as 'too lightweight and hit and miss'. That's understandable given his age. 3 goals in league one for a 17 year old. Hopefully send him out again next year to a side that creates chances and see what he can do. Won't play for our first team next season.

3. Alfie Cresswell. 18. Midfielder. A surprising season for Charlie's younger sibling. Smaller than Charlie and thus destined to fail as a centre half at a top level. However, the youth coaches have transformed him from a mini Charlie in to an Ampadu type defensive midfielder and even pushing forward at times. He has taken to it like a duck to water. Very very impressive in some games and physically dominant. A long way to go.

4. Jayden Lienou. 18 (just gone). Left back/Left wing back. Made the bench against Brighton for the first team despite just going 18 in April. A bit of a wild card this lad. Already been on the books for Everton and Man City before moving to Leeds last summer. Don't like comparing young players to existing players but just to give you an idea of his play style, he is like a young left footed Trent Alexander-Arnold. His passing range is exceptional. Defending is suspect. Next season might come too soon but this lad has some talent.

After those four, I'm not too excited about any of the others. That's not to write any of them off, they are a very young u21 side made up of the FA youth Cup final players from a year ago.

Ones that might kick on but nowhere near ready include....

Sam Chambers who already has a first team appearance and has been on the bench a few times. Attacking midfielder and if Leeds stay in the PL it's difficult for him to attain that level in that position. Unlikely to make the grade at PL level. If we drop down then it's good news for him.

Rhys Chadwick had a decent season as a defensive midfielder but Cresswell has looked the better player imo.

Leonard Ngenge came to the club recently as a centre half from Nigeria. A ****ing beast of a lad at just turned 18. Huge physical defender. One to keep an eye on but needs a full season in the u21's as he adapts to life in a new country.
 
Last edited:
Then you look at Max Dowman, premier league medal at 16. Miles Lewis-Skelly, not much older, O’Reilly at Man City (a bit older) but all breaking into the first team at clubs challenging for major trophies. Our youngsters get lots of plaudits but don’t seem to break into our first team. Have to question how good they really are (in terms of taking us forward).
 
Then you look at Max Dowman, premier league medal at 16. Miles Lewis-Skelly, not much older, O’Reilly at Man City (a bit older) but all breaking into the first team at clubs challenging for major trophies. Our youngsters get lots of plaudits but don’t seem to break into our first team. Have to question how good they really are (in terms of taking us forward).
you also have to look at the basis that those clubs have the luxury of being able to bring on those young players during the stage of a game/season where it doesnt matter to give those players that experience. Other than the Palace game at home, I wouldn't say that we had been in a comfortable position where we could do the same. In addition they are getting to play with a better technical player than we currently have, so they can afford to carry a lesser experienced player on the pitch, due to the quality around them.

There will always be outliers who are just so talented that they will make their way into a first team just from natural ability, and unfortunately if those clubs don't attract the talent initially they just throw money at the situation to persuade youngsters at other clubs to move to them.

I agree with those that said rather then bring on Piroe and Buonette at the West Ham game, why not bring on youngsters who are likely to be at the club next season, but maybe Farke doesn't like to introduce youngsters into games where we are being beaten., or maybe yes we just don't have enough talented youngsters who the club/coaching staff consider to be good enough to play for a lower half premier league team
 
The late goal concessions infuriated me all season. Its not the fact that we sit back, it's how we sit back that frustrates me. I know me and Milky disagree on this but it's a tactical fault imo.

We sit back but we lack any danger on the counter. Wing backs tuck in too tight allowing easy crosses in to our box. The opposition squeeze up and DCL ends up in our defensive third sometimes even in our area. Then there is no out ball. So we hoof the ball anywhere and sit deeper. Rinse and repeat until we are all hemmed in to our 6 yard box and you end up with 'unlucky' deflection goals or it going in off someone's arse, knee or a keeper flapping. At West Ham it was the ever reliable Rodon just not jumping. Panic just ensues.

That's tactical naivety and even a bit of fear. You've got to keep teams honest even in a low block. You must offer some threat on the break and Farke let's them drop back too deep. Just my opinion.

Think we agree what the problem is, allowing pressure to build, no outlet… just not on whether it’s a deliberate tactic. <cheers>

Strategy or accident it’s an area DF needs to do better in.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NostradEmus
you also have to look at the basis that those clubs have the luxury of being able to bring on those young players during the stage of a game/season where it doesnt matter to give those players that experience. Other than the Palace game at home, I wouldn't say that we had been in a comfortable position where we could do the same. In addition they are getting to play with a better technical player than we currently have, so they can afford to carry a lesser experienced player on the pitch, due to the quality around them.

There will always be outliers who are just so talented that they will make their way into a first team just from natural ability, and unfortunately if those clubs don't attract the talent initially they just throw money at the situation to persuade youngsters at other clubs to move to them.

I agree with those that said rather then bring on Piroe and Buonette at the West Ham game, why not bring on youngsters who are likely to be at the club next season, but maybe Farke doesn't like to introduce youngsters into games where we are being beaten., or maybe yes we just don't have enough talented youngsters who the club/coaching staff consider to be good enough to play for a lower half premier league team
I agree to a certain extent but Lewis-Skelly played out of position as left back last season and ended up getting an England call up. He then played in his usual midfield position when Zubamendi got injured and helped Arsenal over the line this year. O’Reilly is off to the World Cup (mind you so is DJed Spence). Don’t get me wrong, I’d like nothing better than see some of our academy players becoming superstars in a Leeds shirt.
 
Think we agree what the problem is, allowing pressure to build, no outlet… just not on whether it’s a deliberate tactic. <cheers>

Strategy or accident it’s an area DF needs to do better in.
Its certainly an issue Farke has failed to address for the full season. That's why I put it on his shoulders.

The first one might be on the players or a simple overlook on how we react but after the first one it has to be the manager who is responsible.
 
About 3 seasons ago (I'm at that age where 'a while ago' can mean 3 months or 10 years) we seemed to have junior teams bursting with PL potential, like Archie Gray, Gelhardt, Cresswell senior, Crew, McGurk (sp?) and they all seem to have fizzled out. Am I being too harsh here? I know that the vast majority of junior player don't make it in the top leagues, but they seemed to have so much promise.