Match Day Thread Chelsea v Spurs

[Citizen Kane.]

The quality of the young players is up for debate - both their eventual ceilings, and their ability to contribute now.

The biggest problem is though that we have made a complete hash of profiling players across the squad, especially with the young players.

Nobody knows what Bergvall is, successive coaches haven’t worked out where he’s most effective (maybe RDZ has it with him being a Gallagher-esque player who has a bit more quality on the ball about him?). Gray has played everywhere, partially because he has had to, but is he a 6? An 8? Nobody knows. Tel has played across the front line, Odobert too as well as occasionally as a 10, though he’s always injured. Who or what is a Xavi Simons?

This is what happens when you have a weak DOF and a succession of coaches or are either unable to, or not in post long enough to, properly embed a way of playing and identify which players fit which roles. Not to mention the changes in how we’ve been playing over the last 12 months.

The vast majority of young players need to be given a role and to train consistently to do it, so that when they get their opportunities on the pitch, the game is simple for them and they can focus on the basics. It’s very different to signing someone like Palhinha, or even a more nominally versatile player like RKM on loan as the club don’t care about developing them, they’re there to do a job when called upon.

I’ve said it before but a massive problem for us is the sheer number of young players all competing for game time in similar parts of the pitch, couple this with the turnover in coaches and that they’re all probably having to play more than you’d hope given the injuries and it’s clear that we’re just muddling through with no clear plan.

It’s why I hope RDZ will be a good coach for us. I think he has a clear game model and a clear sense of what he wants players to do in different parts of the pitch. I also think there’s a trend where your most technical midfield player needs to be the 8 (or the more progressive of a double pivot in a 4231) as getting through an opponent’s mid block or press is the biggest challenge right now - generally you can have space in your own defensive third, or find it in behind a press. RDZ is an innovator and I could see him coaching a midfield where Maddison/Simons drops deeper in the buildup and Gallagher/Bergvall run channels and buzz around for second balls if the 9 can’t make it stick. Then if you get settled possession the more technical player moves closer to goal and the runner covers.

I digress. But the problem is that nobody really knows what role our young players should be doing so they’re probably all a bit lost. It’s harsh to make judgements in such an environment.

Spot on

It is important to remember De Zerbi's opening interviews where he stressed how he wasn't even thinking about coaching. It is all and only about motivation and resilience at this point. And he's right. These players went from being atrociously coached defensively under Ange, to atrociously coached offensively under Frank, and De Zerbi was smart enough to realise that he didn't have enough runway to even begin fixing that.

Part of me is intrigued to see what he can do over the summer and with a full season.

But tbh another increasingly loud part of me has zero faith this board have the first clue how to set him up for success, and pushes me closer to just packing it in permanently as I genuinely can't be arsed for football anymore.

 

[Dier Hard]

The quality of the young players is up for debate - both their eventual ceilings, and their ability to contribute now.

The biggest problem is though that we have made a complete hash of profiling players across the squad, especially with the young players.

Nobody knows what Bergvall is, successive coaches haven’t worked out where he’s most effective (maybe RDZ has it with him being a Gallagher-esque player who has a bit more quality on the ball about him?). Gray has played everywhere, partially because he has had to, but is he a 6? An 8? Nobody knows. Tel has played across the front line, Odobert too as well as occasionally as a 10, though he’s always injured. Who or what is a Xavi Simons?

This is what happens when you have a weak DOF and a succession of coaches or are either unable to, or not in post long enough to, properly embed a way of playing and identify which players fit which roles. Not to mention the changes in how we’ve been playing over the last 12 months.

The vast majority of young players need to be given a role and to train consistently to do it, so that when they get their opportunities on the pitch, the game is simple for them and they can focus on the basics. It’s very different to signing someone like Palhinha, or even a more nominally versatile player like RKM on loan as the club don’t care about developing them, they’re there to do a job when called upon.

I’ve said it before but a massive problem for us is the sheer number of young players all competing for game time in similar parts of the pitch, couple this with the turnover in coaches and that they’re all probably having to play more than you’d hope given the injuries and it’s clear that we’re just muddling through with no clear plan.

It’s why I hope RDZ will be a good coach for us. I think he has a clear game model and a clear sense of what he wants players to do in different parts of the pitch. I also think there’s a trend where your most technical midfield player needs to be the 8 (or the more progressive of a double pivot in a 4231) as getting through an opponent’s mid block or press is the biggest challenge right now - generally you can have space in your own defensive third, or find it in behind a press. RDZ is an innovator and I could see him coaching a midfield where Maddison/Simons drops deeper in the buildup and Gallagher/Bergvall run channels and buzz around for second balls if the 9 can’t make it stick. Then if you get settled possession the more technical player moves closer to goal and the runner covers.

I digress. But the problem is that nobody really knows what role our young players should be doing so they’re probably all a bit lost. It’s harsh to make judgements in such an environment.

I'm getting the impression that people are thinking De Zerbi is going to provide some level of stability to this squad and that he'll coach certain ones to be better but I think that's pretty much bordering on wishful thinking.

IF we stay up, not only De Zerbi but the fans are going to be demanding quality signings, not more untested kids or overpriced rotters. Game time for the young players has already become limited, partly because they're not good enough, partly because he's favouring experience.

Adding in more experienced players in the summer is only going to further diminish any game time, along with the potential return of Kulusevski plus the likes of Kudus and Simons, not forgetting rotation won't be much of an option either as we won't have Europe to contend with.

Harsh or not, these young players have had between 18 months to 2 years to begin staking a claim for a spot in a side that isn't littered with star quality - they've all failed, most of them miserably. Kinsky's worse than Vicario, Gray and Bergvall can't oust any of the CMs albeit the latter has shown more than most he might have it in him, Odobert is arguably the worst of the lot and Tel's only playing because we're desperate.

If anything, these players best bets of getting runs in the side is if we do get relegated, because that'll result in mass departures and a lack of quality incomings.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

He has got a ridiculous first touch tbf, just a shame he has no idea what to do with it beyond that point.

Then next to him is Richarlison who I've noticed has a first touch that takes the ball anywhere from 4-7 yards away from him.

One thing worth asking about Richy ATM: he's carrying an injury, right?

He was barely mobile at times last night, and not like Bentancur or RKM whose legs gave out after the 60ish minute mark

 

[Dier Hard]

One thing worth asking about Richy ATM: he's carrying an injury, right?

He was barely mobile at times last night, and not like Bentancur or RKM whose legs gave out after the 60ish minute mark

I think he's just ridiculously slow, got out paced by Joe Rodon the other week.

 

[The Huddlefro]

I'm getting the impression that people are thinking De Zerbi is going to provide some level of stability to this squad and that he'll coach certain ones to be better but I think that's pretty much bordering on wishful thinking.

IF we stay up, not only De Zerbi but the fans are going to be demanding quality signings, not more untested kids or overpriced rotters. Game time for the young players has already become limited, partly because they're not good enough, partly because he's favouring experience.

Adding in more experienced players in the summer is only going to further diminish any game time, along with the potential return of Kulusevski plus the likes of Kudus and Simons, not forgetting rotation won't be much of an option either as we won't have Europe to contend with.

Harsh or not, these young players have had between 18 months to 2 years to begin staking a claim for a spot in a side that isn't littered with star quality - they've all failed, most of them miserably. Kinsky's worse than Vicario, Gray and Bergvall can't oust any of the CMs albeit the latter has shown more than most he might have it in him, Odobert is arguably the worst of the lot and Tel's only playing because we're desperate.

If anything, these players best bets of getting runs in the side is if we do get relegated, because that'll result in mass departures and a lack of quality incomings.

We need a plan for them in either case. While there’s a fair bet that Bergvall will be in for game time (he’s being used now and with the future status of Xavi, Kulu, and probably Odobert uncertain, he’s the like for like for Gallagher right now) there’s a whole load of questions around Sarr and Gray that I would hope a season playing somewhere else might answer. If RDZ doesn’t know what to make of them by now then that’s needed.

Given it’s Spurs though I have no faith whatsoever that we’ll have a plan at all, let along a good one.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

I think he's just ridiculously slow, got out paced by Joe Rodon the other week.

There's slow, and then there's practically needing a teammate to carry him into position and hope he remains upright long enough

 

[KingHotspur]

I still think De Zerbi leaves if Spurs go down.

 

[Dier Hard]

We need a plan for them in either case. While there’s a fair bet that Bergvall will be in for game time (he’s being used now and with the future status of Xavi, Kulu, and probably Odobert uncertain, he’s the like for like for Gallagher right now) there’s a whole load of questions around Sarr and Gray that I would hope a season playing somewhere else might answer. If RDZ doesn’t know what to make of them by now then that’s needed.

Given it’s Spurs though I have no faith whatsoever that we’ll have a plan at all, let along a good one.

My plan would be to genuinely sell them all bar Bergvall.

Gray's not terrible but he's not a £40m calibre wonderkid either and in two years hasn't progressed in ability nor in terms of pecking order and the reality is we'll likely be looking to add a CM in the summer.

Tel and Odobert are just abysmal footballers with extremely rare flashes of skill. Get whatever we can for them. Replace them in the squad with Moore whilst we add a quality LW and pray Kulu and Kudus return for next season.

Kinsky is worse than Vicario and we already need to replace and upgrade the latter.

 

[The Huddlefro]

My plan would be to genuinely sell them all bar Bergvall.

Gray's not terrible but he's not a £40m calibre wonderkid either and in two years hasn't progressed in ability nor in terms of pecking order and the reality is we'll likely be looking to add a CM in the summer.

Tel and Odobert are just abysmal footballers with extremely rare flashes of skill. Get whatever we can for them. Replace them in the squad with Moore whilst we add a quality LW and pray Kulu and Kudus return for next season.

Kinsky is worse than Vicario and we already need to replace and upgrade the latter.

Going through them

Bergvall is a lock, as you say.

Gray needs to play and I imagine we’ll need to recruit more experience and some different profiles in CM anyway, so he’s probably one we should loan for his sake and ours. I doubt the club will want to write off such a big investment in a young English player who has a big rep in the game.

Sarr (does he still count?) I don’t really know about. Depending on incomings he may be one we’re able to cash in on.

Odobert, nobody’s gonna touch him for a loan or a buy until he’s fit. Realistically I think we’ll have to rehab him first half of the season and loan him in January unless he returns on fire.

Tel probably needs to be sold pending incomings.

Kinsky I’m not as down on as others but like all young GKs, he needs to play. Either we commit to him or loan him and have to bring in 2 GKs, assuming Vic is off.

I might get shot down for this but Mikey Moore might need another season out at a good level. Much will depend on what profile RDZ wants at LW and his preseason.

Vuskovic needs to be integrated as I assume Romero will leave. All being well he’s starting over Danso fairly regularly.

Off the top of my head from the loanees and others, it looks like we’re selling Devine, Philipps I think we should be cashing in on, Scarlett just doesn’t have it for me and IMO should be sold, Lankshear might be worth a look then a loan, Donley I suspect we’ll cash in on, and then there’s some other youngsters like Abbott and Olusesi that I like but really it’s dependent on RDZ and their preseason. Kota Takai and Yang, they’re complete unknown quantities to me. LWB needs to get properly fit again and have a sensible pathway laid out for him.

Obviously this all changes if we end up in the championship. Even just thinking about this makes my head hurt - the level of surgery and turnover needed this summer is enormous no matter what happens. Could have said that for a few years though to be fair.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

I'm getting the impression that people are thinking De Zerbi is going to provide some level of stability to this squad and that he'll coach certain ones to be better but I think that's pretty much bordering on wishful thinking.

IF we stay up, not only De Zerbi but the fans are going to be demanding quality signings, not more untested kids or overpriced rotters. Game time for the young players has already become limited, partly because they're not good enough, partly because he's favouring experience.

Adding in more experienced players in the summer is only going to further diminish any game time, along with the potential return of Kulusevski plus the likes of Kudus and Simons, not forgetting rotation won't be much of an option either as we won't have Europe to contend with.

Harsh or not, these young players have had between 18 months to 2 years to begin staking a claim for a spot in a side that isn't littered with star quality - they've all failed, most of them miserably. Kinsky's worse than Vicario, Gray and Bergvall can't oust any of the CMs albeit the latter has shown more than most he might have it in him, Odobert is arguably the worst of the lot and Tel's only playing because we're desperate.

If anything, these players best bets of getting runs in the side is if we do get relegated, because that'll result in mass departures and a lack of quality incomings.

I'm nitpicking but I can't understand how anyone could rate Bergvall over Gray. I don't get what all the fuss is about him. Couple of flashes of brilliance in and among dozens of totally anonymous performances. The kid looks completely lost out there, and I acknowledge per Huddlefro that this isn't entirely his own fault.

Gray on the other hand has shown multiple times that he is capable of putting in a competent albeit not prodigal performance over 90mins, and in three different positions.

As I've said, I would have taken the £40m on the table for Bergvall in January and ran.

 

[Dier Hard]

Going through them

Bergvall is a lock, as you say.

Gray needs to play and I imagine we’ll need to recruit more experience and some different profiles in CM anyway, so he’s probably one we should loan for his sake and ours. I doubt the club will want to write off such a big investment in a young English player who has a big rep in the game.

Sarr (does he still count?) I don’t really know about. Depending on incomings he may be one we’re able to cash in on.

Odobert, nobody’s gonna touch him for a loan or a buy until he’s fit. Realistically I think we’ll have to rehab him first half of the season and loan him in January unless he returns on fire.

Tel probably needs to be sold pending incomings.

Kinsky I’m not as down on as others but like all young GKs, he needs to play. Either we commit to him or loan him and have to bring in 2 GKs, assuming Vic is off.

I might get shot down for this but Mikey Moore might need another season out at a good level. Much will depend on what profile RDZ wants at LW and his preseason.

Vuskovic needs to be integrated as I assume Romero will leave. All being well he’s starting over Danso fairly regularly.

Off the top of my head from the loanees and others, it looks like we’re selling Devine, Philipps I think we should be cashing in on, Scarlett just doesn’t have it for me and IMO should be sold, Lankshear might be worth a look then a loan, Donley I suspect we’ll cash in on, and then there’s some other youngsters like Abbott and Olusesi that I like but really it’s dependent on RDZ and their preseason. Kota Takai and Yang, they’re complete unknown quantities to me. LWB needs to get properly fit again and have a sensible pathway laid out for him.

Obviously this all changes if we end up in the championship. Even just thinking about this makes my head hurt - the level of surgery and turnover needed this summer is enormous no matter what happens. Could have said that for a few years though to be fair.

I think the problem with Gray and loaning him is that's basically what we should've done when we signed him. He should've stayed at Leeds for the season (Gessa even came on here and said he weren't ready for the Prem), loaning him into what will be his this third season with us feels like a waste of time and money. We massively overspent on him, not his fault of course but spending that amount on any player, young or old, you need some sort of impact, he's not had it. There's every possibility he can become a good player in time but I don't think we have that time to give, personally I'd cash-in but you're probably right in that the club won't take the hit.

I think Sarr's done here but unlike most of the others, we should make a profit on him. Decent player on his day who's weirdly lost his place to an inferior player in Gallagher, I'd love to sell him but the wages we're paying him means we'll be stuck for some time I'd imagine.

Odobert just offer for what we can get, Championship player at best. A painful watch most of the time as he just runs into opposition players.

Tel same as Odobert albeit might be able to make it in the Prem down the line but certainly not to the level we need.

I agree and would happily loan Moore out again. I was just saying I'd rather give him any minutes we would/ will give Tel/ Odobert.

Vuskovic straight into the XI for the likely departing Romero. We won't sign a better CB than Romero for a while so best bet is putting faith in Vuskovic and hoping we finally have a young player genuinely good enough.

Kinsky I find extremely poor. Excellent debut and pulled off two great saves vs Leeds, beyond that I think he's dropped clangers or mistakes in almost every other appearance, last night included with the Fernandez goal, not forgetting booting the ball out of play twice too.

Lankshear brought in to play second fiddle to a new striker, with dumb and dumber both departing as we make a huge loss on the £125m outlay on the pair.

All other youngsters loan or sell if we remain in the Prem, if we go down, there's possible spots for Donley, Devine and Phillips in the squad.

 

[The Changing Man]

I’ll just pick out one point for now.

So you think this current squad could finish in a champions league place without injuries?

I don't think so but in a season where 56 points could get champions league (we got more than that and finished 8th 3 seasons ago) if Maddison, Kulu and Kudus had all been invloved in 90% of our matches maybe.

Would you think that Bouremouths squad could finish in the champions league?

 

[KingHotspur]

I don't think so but in a season where 56 points could get champions league (we got more than that and finished 8th 3 seasons ago) if Maddison, Kulu and Kudus had all been invloved in 90% of our matches maybe.

Would you think that Bouremouths squad could finish in the champions league?

I think Bournemouth have a better squad than Spurs though and that’s why they’ve comfortably finished above Spurs the last couple of seasons.

Some here massively overrate Spurs players just because of the money they cost the club.

Jumping from 38 to 56 is a lot.

 

[The Changing Man]

I think Bournemouth have a better squad than Spurs though and that’s why they’ve comfortably finished above Spurs the last couple of seasons.

Some here massively overrate Spurs players just because of the money they cost the club.

Jumping from 38 to 56 is a lot.

Its only 6 wins? Those better players who have missed so many matches may have been difference makers in 7 or 8 games that we drew or lost and suddenly you are in the mix.

Bournemouth are well coached some of our players would look better in Bournemouths side, and theirs would look worse in ours.

 

[KingHotspur]

Its only 6 wins? Those better players who have missed so many matches may have been difference makers in 7 or 8 games that we drew or lost and suddenly you are in the mix.

Bournemouth are well coached some of our players would look better in Bournemouths side, and theirs would look worse in ours.

Only 6 wins?

Spurs have only won 9 all season. Fully fit squad is still miles off it.

Talk of Champions League when the club could be relegated on Sunday is laughable.

 

[The Changing Man]

Only 6 wins?

Spurs have only won 9 all season. Fully fit squad is still miles off it.

Talk of Champions League when the club could be relegated on Sunday is laughable.

I do actually agree with you, and too many of the players are poor, but equally geting those fit players in the team does improve it and we might have got more wins and played with more confidence, but it's all ifs buts and maybes, the facts are as you say.

 

[The RDBD]

I think Bournemouth have a better squad than Spurs though and that’s why they’ve comfortably finished above Spurs the last couple of seasons.

Some here massively overrate Spurs players just because of the money they cost the club.

Jumping from 38 to 56 is a lot.

Not at all.: win half the games that were drawn this season.

Do you contend that would not have been
achievable if at least one of Kulu or
Maddison were fully fit and in the starting XIs ??

 

[KingHotspur]

I do actually agree with you, and too many of the players are poor, but equally geting those fit players in the team does improve it and we might have got more wins and played with more confidence, but it's all ifs buts and maybes, the facts are as you say.

Don’t get me wrong, I do agree they would help and they’re better than the likes of Muani, Tel & Simons but I don’t think the improvement would be substantial.

Kulusevski is the only attacking player at the club I personally really rate and my worry with him is he won’t be the same (understandable) after such a long injury and time out. Kudus and Maddison are midtable players.

 

[KingHotspur]

Not at all.: win half the games that were drawn this season.

Do you contend that would not have been
achievable if at least one of Kulu or
Maddison were fully fit and in the starting XIs ??

Having Maddison or Kulu means an extra 5/6 wins?

I don’t agree with that.

 

[PowerSpurs]

Only 6 wins?

Spurs have only won 9 all season. Fully fit squad is still miles off it.

Talk of Champions League when the club could be relegated on Sunday is laughable.

How do you know? Kulusevski, Kudos, Solanke, Maddison and Udogie play every match then surely we get 3 or 4 more wins easily. A few different refereeing decisions on top of that also makes a difference.
I've demonstrated that the refs make 20 points difference between the best and worst treated teams which means that Bournemouth could be only be as good as us even with our injuries.
Also we did very well in the CL group stage which suggests we are the right level to play in it.