Would this be totally wide of the mark?

[Donkey Toon]

So his crossing that you have witnessed in bucket loads for us (when was this, in the 4 games he played last year or the handful of games at No.10 role this year?) is it worse then Obertan's 'efforts' or Jonas's left footed 'efforts'. Thats all I am interested in. All the names you claim can cross admirably are true. I agree. Well done.

Fact is HBA would get down the wing and whip a ball in with relative ease. Or pick someone out with a cut back. The lad is class. Crossing the ball will be an absolute breeze to him.

You seem to be making assumptions about HBA's crossing ability or have I missed some decent wing play in his performances for us?

I think as Pardew see's him day in day out at training and chooses not to play him on the wing suggests that he probably isn't any better at it than Obertan or Guti. Pardew has stated that he see's him as a number 10. Sorry but I trust his judgement over yours on this matter.

Also re the Swansea game Obertan did manage to get beyond the defence on several occasions he just buggered up the crosses. Swansea sat very deep making wing play very difficult so blaming the lack of quality crosses as the reason for our failing to score just doesn't cut it with me. We had enough possession and made enough chances to have scored one, but we didn't ... that is why we didn't win. No need to look too deep.

It is karma ... we were on the other side of a result like this earlier in the season. QPR battered us all game but just couldn't score. It happens from time to time and does not call for an inquisition.

There were plenty of signs from the game that if we play like that against Brom and Bolton the goals will come. I'm really not worried.

 

[NufcBano]

You seem to be making assumptions about HBA's crossing ability or have I missed some decent wing play in his performances for us?

I think as Pardew see's him day in day out at training and chooses not to play him on the wing suggests that he probably isn't any better at it than Obertan or Guti. Pardew has stated that he see's him as a number 10. Sorry but I trust his judgement over yours on this matter.

Also re the Swansea game Obertan did manage to get beyond the defence on several occasions he just buggered up the crosses. Swansea sat very deep making wing play very difficult so blaming the lack of quality crosses as the reason for our failing to score just doesn't cut it with me. We had enough possession and made enough chances to have scored one, but we didn't ... that is why we didn't win. No need to look too deep.

It is karma ... we were on the other side of a result like this earlier in the season. QPR battered us all game but just couldn't score. It happens from time to time and does not call for an inquisition.

There were plenty of signs from the game that if we play like that against Brom and Bolton the goals will come. I'm really not worried.

Well you have struck a point their. The fact he hasn't started on the wing for us this season suggests that yourself and Smudge are the ones making the assumption that he cant play their. Not me.

All I want is for him to be given the chance to prove either me wrong or yourselves wrong. The fact Sammy Ameobi is ahead of him is what sticks in my throat on the whole thing. I could understand it if Marveaux was getting the nod. But Sammy? Really? What has he done in that role to warrant getting on the pitch time and time again ahead of a ridiculous talent like Ben Arfa? Just try it Pardew! Just once! For crying out loud.

 

[Smudger]

OK, so he's never played on the wing for us (bar one game). Consider this then:

- Pardew sees him every day, they do crossing drills, etc and practice matches all day and he sees absolutely nothing in him to suggest he is a winger.

- The entirety of Ben Arfa's career in France was on the RIGHT of an attacking 3. He is also LEFT footed and not a prolific goalscorer, so was not there to score goals. How bad a crosser must you be that they play you on the wrong side and dont even expect goals?

 

[Donkey Toon]

Well you have struck a point their. The fact he hasn't started on the wing for us this season suggests that yourself and Smudge are the ones making the assumption that he cant play their. Not me.

All I want is for him to be given the chance to prove either me wrong or yourselves wrong. The fact Sammy Ameobi is ahead of him is what sticks in my throat on the whole thing. I could understand it if Marveaux was getting the nod. But Sammy? Really? What has he done in that role to warrant getting on the pitch time and time again ahead of a ridiculous talent like Ben Arfa? Just try it Pardew! Just once! For crying out loud.

Smudger and I are not making assumptions about anything. HBA has not played as a winger for us and Pardew obviously doesn't rate him there or he would have played him as a winger. That is a reasonable conclusion based upon evidence.

You are the one that is saying that he would be a quality winger without any evidence to back it up. That i'm afraid is assumption.

 

[Colly NUFC]

Well you have struck a point their. The fact he hasn't started on the wing for us this season suggests that yourself and Smudge are the ones making the assumption that he cant play their. Not me.

All I want is for him to be given the chance to prove either me wrong or yourselves wrong. The fact Sammy Ameobi is ahead of him is what sticks in my throat on the whole thing. I could understand it if Marveaux was getting the nod. But Sammy? Really? What has he done in that role to warrant getting on the pitch time and time again ahead of a ridiculous talent like Ben Arfa? Just try it Pardew! Just once! For crying out loud.

Surely that suggests that Pardew has made an informed decision as a football manager that his best position isn't on the wing, rather than anything about Chappaz or Smudger who as far as I know aren't involved in team selection? I'd like Coloccini to start up front to nail me some Dream Team points, but its not going to happen!

 

[NufcBano]

Smudger and I are not making assumptions about anything. HBA has not played as a winger for us and Pardew obviously doesn't rate him there or he would have played him as a winger. That is a reasonable conclusion based upon evidence.

You are the one that is saying that he would be a quality winger without any evidence to back it up. That i'm afraid is assumption.

So what your both saying is that Pardew his 100% correct and is incapable of making a mis-judgement on the issue? My God, we do have an unbelievable manager in charge. I didn't realise he is the perfect manager.

How about that fact he has played as a winger his whole life? How about the fact he has the attributes of a pace and skill that would make him into a class act on the wing? How about the fact he has more talent in his right foot then Obertan could ever dream of. Because thats my ultimate point when it comes down to it. Fact is Ober is on the pitch consistently disappointing where as HBA looks on from the bench. We should be making excuses and looking for ways he could possibly get on the pitch to make a difference. Not handcuff him to the bench because apparently he cant play out wide at home against a negative team like Swansea were on Satday.

 

[NufcBano]

Surely that suggests that Pardew has made an informed decision as a football manager that his best position isn't on the wing, rather than anything about Chappaz or Smudger who as far as I know aren't involved in team selection? I'd like Coloccini to start up front to nail me some Dream Team points, but its not going to happen!

Did u see his burst up the left wing on Satday?

Made Jonas look like a pub player.

Go on Colo!!

 

[Donkey Toon]

So what your both saying is that Pardew his 100% correct and is incapable of making a mis-judgement on the issue? My God, we do have an unbelievable manager in charge. I didn't realise he is the perfect manager.

How about that fact he has played as a winger his whole life? How about the fact he has the attributes of a pace and skill that would make him into a class act on the wing? How about the fact he has more talent in his right foot then Obertan could ever dream of. Because thats my ultimate point when it comes down to it. Fact is Ober is on the pitch consistently disappointing where as HBA looks on from the bench. We should be making excuses and looking for ways he could possibly get on the pitch to make a difference. Not handcuff him to the bench because apparently he cant play out wide at home against a negative team like Swansea were on Satday.

A whole lot of opinions presented as facts yet again. Like I said in my original post, Pardew see's him day in day out in training so I trust his judgement on whether he is a winger more than yours. Are you going to insist in going round in circles over this or just accept that not everybody agrees with you on this?

 

[Colly NUFC]

A whole lot of opinions presented as facts yet again. Like I said in my original post, Pardew see's him day in day out in training so I trust his judgement on whether he is a winger more than yours. Are you going to insist in going round in circles over this or just accept that not everybody agrees with you on this?

You must log in or register to see images

 

[Alfie]

No one's saying Pardew's perfect or the world's greatest manager but he sees the players everyday and has 25+ years experience in football which beats the hell out of any of our 25+ hours on Football Manager. Just chill out man, this is as bad as your Santon rant where you again refused to believe that anyone apart from yourself could be right.

 

[NufcBano]

A whole lot of opinions presented as facts yet again. Like I said in my original post, Pardew see's him day in day out in training so I trust his judgement on whether he is a winger more than yours. Are you going to insist in going round in circles over this or just accept that not everybody agrees with you on this?

No its just when people label me on making assumptions, when they are making them themselves a) you assume Pardew has even thought about playing him wide b) you assume Ben Arfa has shown nothing in training to suggest he could play wide c) you assume Pardew doesnt think he can play their (for all you know he does think he can play their but thinks Sammy is better) d) His crossing is obviously awful (i love this one, plucked out of ur asses from somewhere) etc etc.

Feel to disagree all u like. But expect to put my back up when you try and label me with horsesh*t for eg Football Manager (my god!)

 

[Alfie]

No its just when people label me on making assumptions, when they are making them themselves a) you assume Pardew has even thought about playing him wide b) you assume Ben Arfa has shown nothing in training to suggest he could play wide c) you assume Pardew doesnt think he can play their (for all you know he does think he can play their but thinks Sammy is better) d) His crossing is obviously awful (i love this one, plucked out of ur asses from somewhere) etc etc.

Feel to disagree all u like. But expect to put my back up when you try and label me with horsesh*t for eg Football Manager (my god!)

or option e. That the professional football manager with 25+ years experience may know his team better and know how and where they play better than you.

And football manager's your god? Bizarre.

 

[Smudger]

or option e. That the professional football manager with 25+ years experience may know his team better and know how and where they play better than you.

Exactly.

 

[Nick]

a) Jonas just doesnt have a left foot and has cut back onto his right. Very, very annoying after 3 years.
I've wanted Gutierrez on the right side for ages, but its never gonna happen so i might as well just give up. Having him on the left seems pointless, wingers should only be inverted if theyre the type that runs diagonaly straight into the box with the intention of shooting or laying it off... Granted Jonas had one shot this match, but thats a VERY rare occurence. Having both left sided players being right footed and constantly cutting back in on themselves was irritating as hell at the weekend and either destroyed attacks or slowed them up. Theyre both great players, but surely theyre not the long term answer for the left...

b) Obertan must be a little ******ed to have all his pace and a little bit of skill...but chooses not to use it. Instead he likes to cut inside into a cul-de-sac and either lay it off to Cabaye or just lose the ball. Very annoying.
I want to give him time, but hes so frustrating. He ONCE beat his man with his pace, only to then fire in a cross well over everybody. Every other time he cut inside, ran into trouble and then got himself a bit lost. He did do one or two decent drilled in cutbacks though that somene should really have been on the end of.

c) Simpson got forward once. That is all. Not once did he ever, ever overlap Obertan. Anyone who thinks he is a marauding full back is wrong. He just doesn't do it.
He didnt get forward as much as usual, but the one time he did put a cross in should have resulted in a goal but for Ba goiing in with his foot instead of heading it. He did Overlap Obertan, at one point Obertan was playing left back for nearly 5 mins. He didnt get forward as he usually does though.

d) Santon like Jonas, doesnt have a left foot. He played well, but it seems obvious to me he will be our right back for years to come. Hopefully.
Santon can use his left foot, its pretty stupid making a statement like that from watching him once... Having said that, he'd be much better used on the right. Im not a fan of wide players cutting in constantly to cross, especially when that entire side does the same. You should at least have ONE player on each flank using their natuaral stronger foot to cross. Hopefully we'll get a left back in at some point

 

[Donkey Toon]

No its just when people label me on making assumptions, when they are making them themselves a) you assume Pardew has even thought about playing him wide b) you assume Ben Arfa has shown nothing in training to suggest he could play wide c) you assume Pardew doesnt think he can play their (for all you know he does think he can play their but thinks Sammy is better) d) His crossing is obviously awful (i love this one, plucked out of ur asses from somewhere) etc etc.

Feel to disagree all u like. But expect to put my back up when you try and label me with horsesh*t for eg Football Manager (my god!)

Alfie's response about option e is spot on and doesn't really need expanding on ... but i'm bored so what the heck ...

You seem to be confusing assumption with conclusion. Many of us have concluded that as Pardew (with his 25 years of experience in the professional game) sees HBA in training that he does not play him as a winger for a good reason. That is a conclusion following consideration of the situation.

Now to assumption;
a) you are assuming that Pardew has not considered playing him as a winger
b) you have assumed that HBA has shown something in training suggesting he can play wide
c) you have assumed that Pardew thinks he can play there but that Sammy is better
d) you have assumed that his crossing is good

... can we put this to bed now?

 

[NufcBano]

a) Jonas just doesnt have a left foot and has cut back onto his right. Very, very annoying after 3 years.
I've wanted Gutierrez on the right side for ages, but its never gonna happen so i might as well just give up. Having him on the left seems pointless, wingers should only be inverted if theyre the type that runs diagonaly straight into the box with the intention of shooting or laying it off... Granted Jonas had one shot this match, but thats a VERY rare occurence. Having both left sided players being right footed and constantly cutting back in on themselves was irritating as hell at the weekend and either destroyed attacks or slowed them up. Theyre both great players, but surely theyre not the long term answer for the left...

b) Obertan must be a little ******ed to have all his pace and a little bit of skill...but chooses not to use it. Instead he likes to cut inside into a cul-de-sac and either lay it off to Cabaye or just lose the ball. Very annoying.
I want to give him time, but hes so frustrating. He ONCE beat his man with his pace, only to then fire in a cross well over everybody. Every other time he cut inside, ran into trouble and then got himself a bit lost. He did do one or two decent drilled in cutbacks though that somene should really have been on the end of.

c) Simpson got forward once. That is all. Not once did he ever, ever overlap Obertan. Anyone who thinks he is a marauding full back is wrong. He just doesn't do it.
He didnt get forward as much as usual, but the one time he did put a cross in should have resulted in a goal but for Ba goiing in with his foot instead of heading it. He did Overlap Obertan, at one point Obertan was playing left back for nearly 5 mins. He didnt get forward as he usually does though.

d) Santon like Jonas, doesnt have a left foot. He played well, but it seems obvious to me he will be our right back for years to come. Hopefully.
Santon can use his left foot, its pretty stupid making a statement like that from watching him once... Having said that, he'd be much better used on the right. Im not a fan of wide players cutting in constantly to cross, especially when that entire side does the same. You should at least have ONE player on each flank using their natuaral stronger foot to cross. Hopefully we'll get a left back in at some point

Wow. Someone who actually responded to the thread properly. Im in shock.

On Santon. Im not labelling him as a no left foot wonder already, its just like you say, having Jonas and him doing it together was SO annoying it was untrue.

We did see Jonas pop over to the right and Sammy on the left once this season. I think it was when Marveaux came off injured. Couldnt believe my eyes!

 

[Smudger]

Cant believe I'm about to disagree with Bano and start another argument but what the helll... Jonas was terrible on the right that game by the way. His game is based on unpredictability, he can cut in and run into the box or go wide and cross with his left. If he was on the right he'd just be a traditional winger who runs down the line and crosses the ball. The fact that he isnt a particularly good crosser just suggests to me he'd be much worse on the right.

 

[NufcBano]

Alfie's response about option e is spot on and doesn't really need expanding on ... but i'm bored so what the heck ...

You seem to be confusing assumption with conclusion. Many of us have concluded that as Pardew (with his 25 years of experience in the professional game) sees HBA in training that he does not play him as a winger for a good reason. That is a conclusion following consideration of the situation.

Now to assumption;
a) you are assuming that Pardew has not considered playing him as a winger
b) you have assumed that HBA has shown something in training suggesting he can play wide
c) you have assumed that Pardew thinks he can play there but that Sammy is better
d) you have assumed that his crossing is good

... can we put this to bed now?

Im more than happy to put it to bed.

Is Alan Pardew more of a qualified football manager coach than me? Well is the Pope a catholic? I mean my god, if we are basing arguments that a professional manager knows more about the game so therefore cant be criticised by a fan then all of us should just quit this Forum and shut it down! Its a total non argument to make!

All I ask is we put all of the assumptions from all parties to be put to bed by playing him their at least once or twice to see if their is a better option than Obertan. Who I am sure you all agree, is relentlessly frustrating.

Thats all I want. If I am proved wrong then so be it. But at least try it Pardew!

(do u think he reads this?! )

 

[Smudger]

If Ben Arfa was a regular, then I'd be more than happy to argue all day about him but because he's barely played for us, I'm leaving it to Pardew because he sees him every day. I'd dearly love to put this to bed as well by the way, I dont have the energy to continue 4 arguments.

 

[NufcBano]

Cant believe I'm about to disagree with Bano and start another argument but what the helll... Jonas was terrible on the right that game by the way. His game is based on unpredictability, he can cut in and run into the box or go wide and cross with his left. If he was on the right he'd just be a traditional winger who runs down the line and crosses the ball. The fact that he isnt a particularly good crosser just suggests to me he'd be much worse on the right.

Im not even going to start another one, well at least try not to.

Jonas hardly ever goes onto his left to cross and whenever he does I would say 80-90% of the time it is laugh out loud pathetic. It reminds me of when you see school kids play who haven't developed a left foot yet and the ball struggles to travel more than 20 yards. Also, when ever Jonas does cut in and shoot it is usually a side footed effort that hardly threatens the goal or it is blasted wide like his effort on Satday. How many goals does he have to his name considering the fact he is a right footed left winger who should in theory cut inside and threaten defences directly?

Jonas works hard and tries to get crosses into the box. He would be wise to use his right foot. It would be wise to use him from the right. Once again, just try it Pard's for a game or 2. What have we got to lose? Nothing thats what, but everything to gain.

Also, by this definition you describe, then all wingers who are right footed and play on the right are predictable and therefore somehow are not as effective. Baffling once again Smudge.