I seem to remember a similar thing happening when Farke first got the job when older and/or more longstanding players caused similar issues. Farke, thank goodness, was ruthless and nipped it in the bud, and we had some of the best seasons ever ahead of us. And it seemed that Webber, for all his faults, backed him to the hilt. Thorup, I suspect, was too conciliatory and never had the same backing, but I doubt if he'll make the same mistake again.
Match Day Thread Coventry Vs Norwich City
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I seem to remember a similar thing happening when Farke first got the job when older and/or more longstanding players caused similar issues. Farke, thank goodness, was ruthless and nipped it in the bud, and we had some of the best seasons ever ahead of us. And it seemed that Webber, for all his faults, backed him to the hilt. Thorup, I suspect, was too conciliatory and never had the same backing, but I doubt if he'll make the same mistake again.
I thought Knapper made a poor start with Van Hooijdonk and then had a mediocre window last summer. Too much emphasis was put on youth and lowering the average age in one window, but I don't accept that Thorup was 'given a load of kids'. He would have been consulted about that. We spent over £20m on those players, out of whom only Crnac and possibly Mahovo have been regular starters.
Thorup saw 'the kids' as the heart of the 'three year transition'. It was what he wanted, not something forced upon him. He wasn't forced to play Duffy, he chose to in the 45 games he was available. He talked about playing Doyle and Córdoba together but he never did. He and Knapper had a chance to bring in a CB in the January window. Darling was in the final 6 months of his contract and could have been recruited at a reasonable price, but instead they spent £5.6m on Jurásek, another 'kid'.
I was surprised at the appointment of Manning, who I knew little about, but he had managed a Lommel in Belgium, MK Dons and Bristol City. He knew the Championship well and had seen the weaknesses in Thorup's tactics to do the double over us. That he was from Norfolk and a City fan was also an advantage. Having said all that, I don't know how it will turn out, but am willing to wait and see, much the way I was with Thorup. Manning was very clear when he arrived that he is:
"‘principle’ driven not ‘system’ driven. All those game elements, in possession, out of possession, transitional moments, we want control. How do we control possession or how do we control the way we press or control those transitional moments? We don’t give the players patterns, we try to give them solutions, and then it is on the players to own those decisions. Mentality is important."
My hope is that he's emphasizing the players rather than some tactical system. As with Thorup last season, that approach will take time. I've seen enough over 5 games that progress is happening, but it will take more games for the players to gel and apply the 'principles' at the heart of his approach. A little patience on our part wouldn't go amiss either. We gave that to Thorup, Manning deserves the same.
Thorup saw 'the kids' as the heart of the 'three year transition'. It was what he wanted, not something forced upon him. He wasn't forced to play Duffy, he chose to in the 45 games he was available. He talked about playing Doyle and Córdoba together but he never did. He and Knapper had a chance to bring in a CB in the January window. Darling was in the final 6 months of his contract and could have been recruited at a reasonable price, but instead they spent £5.6m on Jurásek, another 'kid'.
I was surprised at the appointment of Manning, who I knew little about, but he had managed a Lommel in Belgium, MK Dons and Bristol City. He knew the Championship well and had seen the weaknesses in Thorup's tactics to do the double over us. That he was from Norfolk and a City fan was also an advantage. Having said all that, I don't know how it will turn out, but am willing to wait and see, much the way I was with Thorup. Manning was very clear when he arrived that he is:
"‘principle’ driven not ‘system’ driven. All those game elements, in possession, out of possession, transitional moments, we want control. How do we control possession or how do we control the way we press or control those transitional moments? We don’t give the players patterns, we try to give them solutions, and then it is on the players to own those decisions. Mentality is important."
My hope is that he's emphasizing the players rather than some tactical system. As with Thorup last season, that approach will take time. I've seen enough over 5 games that progress is happening, but it will take more games for the players to gel and apply the 'principles' at the heart of his approach. A little patience on our part wouldn't go amiss either. We gave that to Thorup, Manning deserves the same.
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You can't use the term "clear goals" CC, Carrabuh will tell you we aren't creating or scoring enough
Well Thorup appeared to my ear to be a far better communicator than Manning. More interesting, more enthusiastic, passionate, more authority and more knowledgeable.
You only have to listen to the press conferences.
If those parameters you seriously constitutes a dynamic, then those attributes contribute very much towards players working things out, keeping the ball, trusting your team mates.
These are things we are not very good at.
Thorups team had plenty of commitment to what he was trying to do. They were just so ridiculously young for it to work straight away tied with Knappers signings that were frankly rubbish AND remain rubbish under Manning, despite the apparent improvement in dynamic (not my opinion).
I really do not get anyone buying into Manning.
2 defensive midfielders sitting in front of 3 centrebacks. I mean the clues are all there to see.
"We don't give the players patterns, we try to give them solutions and then its up to the players to own those decisions"
I don't think that quote makes any sense conceptually. It sounds on the surface to be insightful but really it's gobbledegook that is probably impossible to be true if you think about it.
A pattern is essentially in my mind known tactics or action mixed with known formation. In what footballing world is that not better than unknown action mixed with unknown formation but give the players a multitude of options that could or could not be beneficial that are new. It sounds bullshit to me, him giving the player solutions is the same as him giving them a pattern to recognise and make the right choice.
He's just rewording what anyone else does.
What is the progress?
We still concede lots of goals
1 clean sheet
We play long ball
Only Kvistgaarden has scored apart from Sargent
Lost every home game
Had large periods of every game being outplayed
Terrible defensive stats
Worst possession in a game for many years
What stats back progression? they also fail the eye test because the football is ugly.
I'm sure Darling has scored.
Haven't lost an away game.
Only 1 of 2 teams that have scored against Middlesborough.
Scored in every league game.
Only lost 2 league home games both 2 - 1 by narrow margins against the league leaders and a decent Milwall team.
Considering who we've played and we have so many new players we're not in a bad position in the league, above Southampton & Ipswich.
Can't be arsed to comment further as your clearly not willing to consider any other narrative than you own.
Anyway we've only played 5 games so far so way too soon to judge what we are capable off.
Haven't lost an away game.
Only 1 of 2 teams that have scored against Middlesborough.
Scored in every league game.
Only lost 2 league home games both 2 - 1 by narrow margins against the league leaders and a decent Milwall team.
Considering who we've played and we have so many new players we're not in a bad position in the league, above Southampton & Ipswich.
Can't be arsed to comment further as your clearly not willing to consider any other narrative than you own.
Anyway we've only played 5 games so far so way too soon to judge what we are capable off.
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We haven’t played a back 3 for the last 2 matches and many would claim that McLean isn’t a DM
I don't bother to respond to carrabuh any more for that reason.
The Farke comparison is a good one - let’s not forget that Farke’s first season was a real damp squib. We finished 14th, our best player by a country mile was sold at the end of the Summer
Thorup’s season was actually much stronger thank Farke’s first season until the end of February - in the top half, skirting with the play-offs, players coming back from injury.
And then we collapsed from 2-0 up at home against Wednesday and our season fell to pieces. I can’t explain it. Sargent returning to fitness.
Within just a few matches Thorup looked like a beaten man and the players had stopped playing for him. Then he was sacked. I don’t remember a manager unravelling so quickly from a position of relative strength. I thought he should have stayed and it would have been a long term project, but by the time he was sacked I was OK with it because he had seemingly given up. And then the mess up with Wilshere.
Sadly I don’t think we will ever know why. But it seems pretty clear to me that it was more than just strategic direction of the team/club and Knapper being incompetent.
Great attitude for a discussion forum.....i dont agree so I dont bother.
Yes, I dont think Mclean is a DM but despite Manning claims of being flexible, i dont think not playingcwith 2 dms is an option. Mclean has been very deep so I wouldn't claim that hes not been a dm.
We have 3 cbs when we attack.
I agree that we will never know what went wrong but I have my own theory which I have expressed before. The turn for the worse seemed to coincide with the meeting between Thorup and the owner. Could it be that Thorup was brought in with a three year transition plan to build a younger squad with a view to challenge the top 6 and promotion at the end of the 3 years transition and when he met the owner he was told to scrap that plan and challenge for the top 6 that season or else.
You don't discuss, you simply parade your prejudices about Thorup and Manning. The time has come to realise Thorup is gone and won't be coming back. The future is more important than the past.
That is little more than supposition, 1950. Attanasio has made it clear that competing for a top 6 place was the target before the season began. Perhaps Knapper and/or Thorup didn't take that seriously, but, in truth, we didn't even come close to that target. We were 15th when Thorup left.
Possibly, but it seems odd for a senior football coach’s energy and self-belief to evaporate just for that, along with seeming wholesale loss of faith/connection with the players.
They shouldn’t be short of confidence and if they are then they are not really fit to be manager of an English professional football club.
So I don’t really buy it.
In theory Attanasio could have simply told him he was going to be sacked in the Summer come what may - that might be enough for him to off the boil like that, but then the way he spoke in various matches afterwards and the comments after being sacked don’t align with that fully.
I think there was a breakdown in the relationship with players in some way.
That means, for me, it was probably the right decision to sack Thorup (even though it didn’t seem in line with the “project”), something was clearly wrong. The mistake was picking Manning IMHO and I don’t see him surviving much longer given already there is the lack of fan support just eight matches in.
You sound unusually negative Rob, but if we start talking about sacking managers after 5 league games we are in trouble. As I've said, I don't know how Manning will work out but he should have a decent amount of time to let the new players settle in and show what they can do. We have a strong squad now with an average age below 25 and a more experienced defence. Two wins, two losses and a draw is a slow start but not enough for desperation. A win against Wrexham could put us close to the top 6 (we're only two points off 6th now) and the new players bedding in and those returning from injury will make a difference over the coming months.
Even though I'm not at all impressed with Manning so far, I wouldn't advocate sacking him because in my opinion that would only deflect from the real problem - Knapper and his abject recruitment to date, selling off the family silver and splashing the cash on expensive bling. Yes, Manning has only had five league games, and perhaps shouldn't be finally judged yet, but Knapper has had 18 months and three transfer windows and the squad of players looks much weaker than when he arrived (other than Darling). Why should we let him flog our last piece of silver in January and then waste yet more money on a poor replacement?
Mean while back in the real world!!!!
18 months is no time at all in the development of young players. There's a reason why most of the contracts are 4 years.
What family silver has he got rid of ? We seem to sell players for more than they are worth most of the time.
Which players has he sold that you would have kept ? Young players aside which signings have we made in the last 18 months, who have been flops ?
If your expecting him to buy players in the summer window and for them to become super stars by mid September then you are always going to be disappointed.
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Without a doubt, this is a make or break season for Knapper. I agree that his recruitment last year was weak, but many of those young players could still come good then way Sargent did. I hated to lose Núñez, especially to Ipswich, but he refused new contracts and clearly wanted to move on. We need players 100% committed to the cause. Nacho is a good player, but £10m for a player in his final year is good value.
IMO, Knapper has recruited much better this year with players approaching or already in their prime but time will tell (I've learned to not put too much faith in compilation videos). From what we've seen so far, Kovacevic is a big improvement in goal, Darling and Medić have strengthened the defence, Diallo is pacey and decent on both sides of the ball, Topić is a true DM who can support the attack as well and Kvistgaarden seems to be linking well with Sargent (let's hope his injury isn't serious). We have yet to see what Mattsson will add so the jury is still out, IMO. I don't see how you can call him a poor replacement when he hasn't even kicked a ball yet and we've now got both Topić and Mattsson for less than we received for Núñez. The proof will be in the pudding though as the season continues.
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Manning's case for the defence:
“There are so many factors in play at this stage. With the volume of new players we have, and then you throw an international period in where we have eight players away, we're chasing a bit of consistency in how we work, which we need from the programme as well. We'll learn. We'll definitely, and this is the key aspect for me, take all the experiences, and we've had varied experiences so far in in all the games, and use those to become better as a group and as a team. It's building the culture that we have and the way we work. Handling that pressure in the games, but also the work that then goes on behind the scenes, with video, with training, with individual meetings. All of that will allow us to improve over time.”
https://www.pinkun.com/sport/interviews/25466604.norwich-city-manning-canaries-championship-project/
And this is Chris Sutton's opinion:
"Overall, though, I've been really pleasantly surprised by where City are. It was never going to be perfect, but they've done enough to earn some really crucial patience at this stage of the season. Who knows how important the points they've already collected will be at the climax of the play-off race, especially when you look at the Championship as it is at the moment.
Add to this element the usual velocity, brutality and relentlessness of the second tier and it's almost impossible to predict things. What I can sense is a broad optimism from fans, and I'm probably in that boat too, based on what I've seen so far. There are still improvements to be made, that much is clear. For now though I've been impressed, and I think Manning's doing a good job."
https://www.pinkun.com/sport/opinion/25471522.norwich-city-legend-chris-sutton-liam-mannings-start/
“There are so many factors in play at this stage. With the volume of new players we have, and then you throw an international period in where we have eight players away, we're chasing a bit of consistency in how we work, which we need from the programme as well. We'll learn. We'll definitely, and this is the key aspect for me, take all the experiences, and we've had varied experiences so far in in all the games, and use those to become better as a group and as a team. It's building the culture that we have and the way we work. Handling that pressure in the games, but also the work that then goes on behind the scenes, with video, with training, with individual meetings. All of that will allow us to improve over time.”
https://www.pinkun.com/sport/interviews/25466604.norwich-city-manning-canaries-championship-project/
And this is Chris Sutton's opinion:
"Overall, though, I've been really pleasantly surprised by where City are. It was never going to be perfect, but they've done enough to earn some really crucial patience at this stage of the season. Who knows how important the points they've already collected will be at the climax of the play-off race, especially when you look at the Championship as it is at the moment.
Add to this element the usual velocity, brutality and relentlessness of the second tier and it's almost impossible to predict things. What I can sense is a broad optimism from fans, and I'm probably in that boat too, based on what I've seen so far. There are still improvements to be made, that much is clear. For now though I've been impressed, and I think Manning's doing a good job."
https://www.pinkun.com/sport/opinion/25471522.norwich-city-legend-chris-sutton-liam-mannings-start/
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8 players on international duty !!! How did they get selected when we're playing so badly and we're only buying flops.