That’s mostly just whataboutery, and irrelevant. The subject was Brexit, not Obama.
I’m glad you agree that Brexit had zero benefits though.
Off Topic Politics Thread
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I’m glad you agree that Brexit had zero benefits though.
It’s been great for us lefties who are constantly demanding unfettered migration though!!!
While it's true that most people didn't list it as one of their most important political issues it simply isn't true that nobody saw EU membership as an issue until the mid-2010s. After Thatcher left office, whenever the question of further integration arose - so around the time of Maastricht and shortly before and after the Euro was created - polling showed the public were opposed to further integration and at those times support for leaving increased. As one thinktank put it recently "On the whole, British attitudes up until the mid-2000s can be summarised as a combination of dislike and disinterest. The British were also noticeably less likely to see themselves as European... The single event that most changed this was the EU enlargement of 2004 and the decision of the British government not to impose limits on the rights of citizens of the new member states to come to the UK."
So yeah, people's opinions on The EU haven't really changed that much but over time immigration increased and the EU question became more important to people. This link will take you to a 2011 ipsos poll that indicated two-thirds of people wanted a referendum on membership of the EU and suggested Leave might well win (49% leave vs 41% remain).
Uncontrolled immigration is not an inevitable consequence of Brexit. We currently have extremely high levels of immigration because of policy decisions made by our politicians and governments. These policies are deeply unpopular, and the governments that have implemented them have also been (and still are!) extremely unpopular.
So yeah, people's opinions on The EU haven't really changed that much but over time immigration increased and the EU question became more important to people. This link will take you to a 2011 ipsos poll that indicated two-thirds of people wanted a referendum on membership of the EU and suggested Leave might well win (49% leave vs 41% remain).
Uncontrolled immigration is not an inevitable consequence of Brexit. We currently have extremely high levels of immigration because of policy decisions made by our politicians and governments. These policies are deeply unpopular, and the governments that have implemented them have also been (and still are!) extremely unpopular.
And not much has changed there. While recent polling comes out in favour of remain.......its all about what questions you ask because when asked several questions about whether it should solely be the UK government making decisions on X and Y, full sovereignty wins so they contradict each other. When you don't add in mentions of the EU or Brexit and ask people about policy they give preferences that as a member of the EU we would not be able to fulfil!
Still, If they had held the referendum anywhere up to 2002/3 (Iraq war) remain would likely have pulled through the vote in the end. People didn't really care that much back then.
Maybe, maybe not. However the catastrophe that people keep claiming should show the EU pulling away from the UK in terms of growth due to the benefit we have lost? but they don't. We are both caught in this global sh*tstorm and we have had the most shocking governments as well as a parliament actively fighting against even trying to make anything work.
We are only just behind the EU however pre Brexit the constant comparison was Germany! Germany this, Germany that. Bear in mind that there was a pandemic involved as well and these charts are from 2019 so include a year before we actually left the EU in 2020, although we are still pretty tied into quite a lot of things before Starmer weasled us back into others...........The UK to Germany comparison is startling. But who is to know if that is because of Brexit or because Germany is in big trouble?
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So "despite" Brexit we've vastly outperformed Germany since 2019. Just behind France and the Eurozone as a whole but way behind the US.
And forecasts for this doom laden Brexit ridden land from the IMF? Oooh dear. Hmm this can't be right surely? we should be at the end of the list there! Damn that Brexit is stopping us being No1. If not for Brexit we would be much higher. but look at Germany. Germany is the example we should always mark ourselves against.
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Even if we go back to 2015 when the referendum was announced, a year before the referendum and 4 years before we actually left the catastrophe has not happened despite the best efforts of our idiot politicians and their minions as well as the whole narrative trying to tell us it is so. We are ahead of Germany, France and Italy over the past 10 years and as seen above forecast better growth for this year as well!
The reality is the whole of Europe including the EU has struggled over that period and they love to blame our sluggish growth on Brexit...........despite us outperforming the other 3 major players in the EU over the past 10 years. Despite the years post pandemic us being neck and neck with them and despite us being forecast better growth than them this year as well!
The reality is the whole of Europe including the EU has struggled over that period and they love to blame our sluggish growth on Brexit...........despite us outperforming the other 3 major players in the EU over the past 10 years. Despite the years post pandemic us being neck and neck with them and despite us being forecast better growth than them this year as well!
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Farage, although quite clearly a fellow traveler, is far too smart an operator to show up at something like that. Which tells you all you need to know about the people who did.
Nicked from Facebook, I think this is brilliantly well put.
My daughter came home from school and said,
“Mom, you’re not going to believe what happened in history class today.”
Her teacher told the class they were going to play a game.
He walked around the room and whispered to each kid whether they were a witch or just a regular person. Then he gave the instructions:
“Form the biggest group you can without a witch. If your group has even one, you all fail.”
She said the whole room instantly lit up with suspicion.
Everyone started interrogating each other. Are you a witch? How do we know you’re not lying?
Some kids clung to one big group, but most broke off into smaller, exclusive cliques. They turned away anyone who seemed uncertain, nervous, or gave off even the slightest hint of being guilty.
The energy shifted fast. Suddenly everyone was suspicious of everyone.
Whispers. Finger-pointing. Side-eyes. Trust dissolved in minutes.
Finally, when all the groups were formed, the teacher said,
“Alright, time to find out who fails. Witches, raise your hands.”
And not one hand went up.
The whole class exploded. “Wait! You messed up the game!”
And then the teacher dropped the bomb:
“Did I? Were there any actual witches in Salem, or did everyone just believe what they were told?”
My daughter said the room went dead silent.
That’s when it hit them. No witch was ever needed for the damage to happen. Fear had already done its work. Suspicion alone divided the entire class, turning community into chaos.
And isn’t that exactly what we’re seeing today?
Different words, same playbook.
Instead of “witch,” it’s liberal, conservative, vaxxed, unvaxxed, pro-this, anti-that.
The labels shift, but the tactic is the same.
Get people scared. Get them suspicious. Get them divided.
Then sit back while trust crumbles.
The danger was never the witch.
The danger is the rumor. The suspicion. The fear. The planted lies.
Refuse the whisper. Don’t play the game. Because the second we start hunting “witches,” we’ve already lost.
My daughter came home from school and said,
“Mom, you’re not going to believe what happened in history class today.”
Her teacher told the class they were going to play a game.
He walked around the room and whispered to each kid whether they were a witch or just a regular person. Then he gave the instructions:
“Form the biggest group you can without a witch. If your group has even one, you all fail.”
She said the whole room instantly lit up with suspicion.
Everyone started interrogating each other. Are you a witch? How do we know you’re not lying?
Some kids clung to one big group, but most broke off into smaller, exclusive cliques. They turned away anyone who seemed uncertain, nervous, or gave off even the slightest hint of being guilty.
The energy shifted fast. Suddenly everyone was suspicious of everyone.
Whispers. Finger-pointing. Side-eyes. Trust dissolved in minutes.
Finally, when all the groups were formed, the teacher said,
“Alright, time to find out who fails. Witches, raise your hands.”
And not one hand went up.
The whole class exploded. “Wait! You messed up the game!”
And then the teacher dropped the bomb:
“Did I? Were there any actual witches in Salem, or did everyone just believe what they were told?”
My daughter said the room went dead silent.
That’s when it hit them. No witch was ever needed for the damage to happen. Fear had already done its work. Suspicion alone divided the entire class, turning community into chaos.
And isn’t that exactly what we’re seeing today?
Different words, same playbook.
Instead of “witch,” it’s liberal, conservative, vaxxed, unvaxxed, pro-this, anti-that.
The labels shift, but the tactic is the same.
Get people scared. Get them suspicious. Get them divided.
Then sit back while trust crumbles.
The danger was never the witch.
The danger is the rumor. The suspicion. The fear. The planted lies.
Refuse the whisper. Don’t play the game. Because the second we start hunting “witches,” we’ve already lost.
I see that Rupert Lowe would rather back foreign interference from Elon Musk than stand up for Britain.
Good on Ed Davey for having the balls to stand up for the UK where all others including the PM are failing.
Edit - Moderating my language.
Good on Ed Davey for having the balls to stand up for the UK where all others including the PM are failing.
Edit - Moderating my language.
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Oh look, another Tory joins Reform. This ‘new’ party is going to be soooo different!
Never heard of him but Kruger appears to be another extremist with links to American hard right.
Just checked in to see what the most recent quarrels are about. I'm devasted to have missed yesterday's debate on whether pissing in public is attributable solely to the far right or if the left also dabble in a bit of El fresco watering when caught short. That's not to say I excuse those yesterday or see it as a necessity for anyone unless desperate but even then somewhere less public would be my advice.
It seem to be more common these days wherever you are, quite often blokes in lay-bys or just by the side of the road in full view of everyone. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but at least try to find some cover to piss behind instead of acting like a yobbo, left or right. Anyway, top debating guys, bit of light relief after the football, so to speak.
Also yesterday, an argument about those on the march being no better than those leading it. My opinion is that participants in all protests want to make their feelings known and don't care too much about who they are rubbing shoulders with. Otherwise all those peaceful protesters who were quite happy to walk with those calling for the eradication of Jews at the so called "peace marches" would have left. Funny though, no mention on here that those who attended being as bad as the Hamas sympathisers they were protesting alongside. So I guess it's seen as ok as long as you agree with the cause.
It seem to be more common these days wherever you are, quite often blokes in lay-bys or just by the side of the road in full view of everyone. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but at least try to find some cover to piss behind instead of acting like a yobbo, left or right. Anyway, top debating guys, bit of light relief after the football, so to speak.
Also yesterday, an argument about those on the march being no better than those leading it. My opinion is that participants in all protests want to make their feelings known and don't care too much about who they are rubbing shoulders with. Otherwise all those peaceful protesters who were quite happy to walk with those calling for the eradication of Jews at the so called "peace marches" would have left. Funny though, no mention on here that those who attended being as bad as the Hamas sympathisers they were protesting alongside. So I guess it's seen as ok as long as you agree with the cause.
Big difference between validating someone’s opinion and validating a group of criminal scum - one of whom will be going to court for sharing foul upskirting photos.
Going forward, growth is really the wrong way to look at the economy. The current model we seem to chase - I'm provocatively calling more crap more profits - rewards companies for making things that break quickly, become obsolete, or need constant replacement. Fast fashion that falls apart after a few washes, smartphones designed to performance crater after two years, single-use subscription software that turns "ownership" into endless rental fees, endless etcs
As clean renewable energy gets more efficient and cheaper, it will actually reduce GDP in the energy sector while improving our quality of life, reducing pollution, cheaper bills; let alone potentially solving climate problems. Clean energy has to be subsidized in the west because it works so well (driving costs down) that it's not profitable enough to attract private investment. China's savvy approach with massive state investment in renewables, regardless of short-term profitability, has further driven costs down globally. The point being, by the GDP growth metric, cheaper energy looks like economic decline. By any sensible measure of progress, it's a huge win!
We can't expect capitalism to solve our fundamental utility, environmental, and health problems. The most profitable approach is often to create or maintain the problem; Preventing disease is less profitable than treating it, durable infrastructure is less profitable than constant repairs, the better the solution works for society, the worse it often works for profit-maximization. Can a profit-based system fix a problem it helped create, especially when fixing it undermines profits? We’ll need to go beyond profit logiic through policy, public action, and cultural shifts have a better chance to succeed.
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Oh look, another Labour party member resigns.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...en-quits-over-offensive-diane-abbott-messages
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My mistake. I am sure Labour are ****. But the fact Reform are the old boys’ club reunited is the real issue.