Match Day Thread Tottenham Hotspur v Nottingham Forest

[PowerSpurs]

Yeah I don’t see how Spurs win the league with Ange (personally don’t think they win the league under any manager) but nothing I’ve seen under him suggests a consistent settled side that will do well in the league is on the way. Even if Spurs suffered no injuries, his approach is far too amateur and he lacks the attention to detail needed at the top level.

There are only two ways we can win the League...become like prime Man City which can't happen for years because of the cost. Or take lots of risk and get more scatter on our finishes. Ange has the PL record for the most goals scored over 50 games. If he continues like that and has a bit more luck with the distribution of goals for and against then winning the League is entirely possible. We certainly won't win it with a coach who won't take risks. We should give it a try.

 

[PowerSpurs]

Levy isn’t going anywhere though. Personally I’d love new owners with a fresh approach but that won’t be happening so can’t really do anything about that. A new manager on the other hand is a lot easier to get. Agree the next guy probably wouldn’t be the right choice though.

I would be interested in what the fresh approach might be and some examples of where it has been successfully elsewhere....

 

[Citizen Kane.]

There are only two ways we can win the League...become like prime Man City which can't happen for years because of the cost. Or take lots of risk and get more scatter on our finishes. Ange has the PL record for the most goals scored over 50 games. If he continues like that and has a bit more luck with the distribution of goals for and against then winning the League is entirely possible. We certainly won't win it with a coach who won't take risks. We should give it a try.

The only risk we take is constantly replacing the manager.

Everton, United, Palace, Leicester and Wolves also take this risk. How's it worked out for them?

The only team in the whole league who does it with some measure of success coming the other way is Chelsea, and that's because whoever is in the dugout gets half a billion to spend.

 

[Spurf]

Seeing clubs like City, United, Newcastle, Villa, and Spurs all struggling with consistency, my first thought was more games more pressure and more tired / injured players, but not the case it appears. The International Centre for Sports Studies (CIES)
"https://football-observatory.com/-Reports-" /> suggests this is not the case

'The CIES looked at 677 clubs across 40 leagues. In looking at a period from 2012 to 2024, its findings show in 2023-24, the average club played 42.4 competitive matches. In 2014-15 that figure was 42.6 and in 2020-21 it hit 43.9.'

That is not this season but apparently there is no big change. In which case we have to look elsewhere, and the first obvious place is the overall improvement in PL teams in general. Teams like Bournemouth, Brighton, West Ham, Fulham, Nottm. Forest, Brentford can all beat anyone on their day. I don't think there is much doubt that the PL is more competitive so it's the worst time to be in a revamp of squad and tactics as Spurs are, but what is also clear to me is that changing manager is only to repeat what we have been doing for years without success.
Talk of, well we have most of our first team players back apart from defence is to ignore that lack of being able to rotate players because of lack of squad depth. I think the strongest argument is to pressure Levy to KEEP Ange and in effect force him to back the manager fully or suffer the financial consequences. If we drop into the usual 'manager has to go' syndrome, Levy is off the hook again and he can just look to the new guy to work with our 'great' squad. The other factor, which should not be ignored is how young many of our players are and the potential that exists already, add one or two top experienced players and things will happen.

 

[KingHotspur]

I would be interested in what the fresh approach might be and some examples of where it has been successfully elsewhere....

Copy and paste from you as usual. It’s boring now.

 

[Dier Hard]

I would be interested in what the fresh approach might be and some examples of where it has been successfully elsewhere....

The whole point of it being a fresh approach is essentially something new though, isn’t it?

So it wouldn’t be successful or unsuccessful anywhere else, it’s simply saying you want to try something different from what is currently going on under the regime that’s been in charge for 24 years.

 

[PowerSpurs]

The whole point of it being a fresh approach is essentially something new though, isn’t it?

So it wouldn’t be successful or unsuccessful anywhere else, it’s simply saying you want to try something different from what is currently going on under the regime that’s been in charge for 24 years.

That's a fine answer but if there is one thing we are doing differently now it's having a relatively untried risk taking manager. This is fresh and different but the poster I was replying to got fed up with that after a few months. Personally I think we should take risks on the field, with the manager and in the transfer market but not with the business. But every time we do any of the first three, the entire fanbase panics within a few months and calls for some unspecified wholesale change that seems to me to risk the entire future of the club.

 

[PowerSpurs]

Seeing clubs like City, United, Newcastle, Villa, and Spurs all struggling with consistency, my first thought was more games more pressure and more tired / injured players, but not the case it appears. The International Centre for Sports Studies (CIES)
"https://football-observatory.com/-Reports-" /> suggests this is not the case

'The CIES looked at 677 clubs across 40 leagues. In looking at a period from 2012 to 2024, its findings show in 2023-24, the average club played 42.4 competitive matches. In 2014-15 that figure was 42.6 and in 2020-21 it hit 43.9.'

That is not this season but apparently there is no big change. In which case we have to look elsewhere, and the first obvious place is the overall improvement in PL teams in general. Teams like Bournemouth, Brighton, West Ham, Fulham, Nottm. Forest, Brentford can all beat anyone on their day. I don't think there is much doubt that the PL is more competitive so it's the worst time to be in a revamp of squad and tactics as Spurs are, but what is also clear to me is that changing manager is only to repeat what we have been doing for years without success.
Talk of, well we have most of our first team players back apart from defence is to ignore that lack of being able to rotate players because of lack of squad depth. I think the strongest argument is to pressure Levy to KEEP Ange and in effect force him to back the manager fully or suffer the financial consequences. If we drop into the usual 'manager has to go' syndrome, Levy is off the hook again and he can just look to the new guy to work with our 'great' squad. The other factor, which should not be ignored is how young many of our players are and the potential that exists already, add one or two top experienced players and things will happen.

The only way the manager can be backed more fully is to have a new owner with so much cash they can afford to pay off the stadium loans and inject another few hundred million into the squad. While this owner may theoretically exist, they might well be someone I couldn't stomach so I would have to abandon the club I love. I really don't want some random change in ownership to cure a problem that doesn't actually exist.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

One thing that WindyCOYS has been saying is that losing Romero and Mickey Van has exposed just how bad our midfield is at passing, and this needs addressing

This does underline one issue with our system: it is reliant on the CBs to get moves going from deep, which Mickey Van's surging runs and Romero's through balls absolutely do, but with them out injured nobody can replicate those and that's messed up our first few phases in transition - and also revealed that our midfield is more workmanlike than it should be

Now having a workmanlike midfield in itself is not an issue, as a lot of teams who utilise wing backs tend to focus on having a rock solid midfield precisely for this reason - though it does become a problem when Maddison and Bentancur are supposed to provide creativity yet they're frequently anonymous

 

[PowerSpurs]

Copy and paste from you as usual. It’s boring now.

OK. I will be more specific. Do you have any red lines? For example would you be happy ENIC selling to the highest bidder whoever that was and whatever the source of their funds?
I couldn't support Spurs if they had an owner like Abramovich or the Saudis so such a development terrifies me.

 

[Spurf]

The only way the manager can be backed more fully is to have a new owner with so much cash they can afford to pay off the stadium loans and inject another few hundred million into the squad. While this owner may theoretically exist, they might well be someone I couldn't stomach so I would have to abandon the club I love. I really don't want some random change in ownership to cure a problem that doesn't actually exist.

I didn't actually say 'more fully' I said fully. I am not suggesting they are not atm and from Ange's comments it would appear they are going to try to find some reinforcements in January. I am just putting the case for retaining the manager. The trouble is fans always question decisions and I can't see that stopping. Trying to run a big football club is made more difficult by the thousands who try to sit around the board table and give their largely doubtful advice.

 

[Dier Hard]

That's a fine answer but if there is one thing we are doing differently now it's having a relatively untried risk taking manager. This is fresh and different but the poster I was replying to got fed up with that after a few months. Personally I think we should take risks on the field, with the manager and in the transfer market but not with the business. But every time we do any of the first three, the entire fanbase panics within a few months and calls for some unspecified wholesale change that seems to me to risk the entire future of the club.

Jol was an untried manager, Postecoglou is actually a very experienced one just not so much at the top level (and I think it shows to be honest), so it’s not really new territory for us.

I don’t personally view his style as risky either but more chaotic and ultimately unsustainable. We’ve also become easy to read, our last two opposition have had players give post-match interviews telling us how they set up to beat us, Elanga especially made it sound so easy - “There was space in behind. There was loads of space in the game, that is how Tottenham play - with the high line”…

You can play good football without the naivety, stupidity and recklessness too. Pochettino, Redknapp and Jol showed that at Spurs and plenty of other managers are playing good football nowadays too; Slot, Maresca, Silva and Iraola to name just a few in the Prem. The latter seems like Pochettino’s clone with his style of football and career path.

Ultimately I think we have a board that doesn’t show enough footballing ambition and a manager who is unfortunately well out of his depth. I think a lot of our fanbase are in a situation where they despise the board so much they’d rather persist with the manager just to spite them and hope it forces them to back him but I don’t truly believe many have a lot of faith in Postecoglou himself.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

**** sources (and borderline AI generated sources) claim we're looking to loan in Skriniar in January

...you get the feeling there's a reason I did not want to sully the transfer thread with this one

 

[PowerSpurs]

Jol was an untried manager, Postecoglou is actually a very experienced one just not so much at the top level (and I think it shows to be honest), so it’s not really new territory for us.

I don’t personally view his style as risky either but more chaotic and ultimately unsustainable. We’ve also become easy to read, our last two opposition have had players give post-match interviews telling us how they set up to beat us, Elanga especially made it sound so easy - “There was space in behind. There was loads of space in the game, that is how Tottenham play - with the high line”…

You can play good football without the naivety, stupidity and recklessness too. Pochettino, Redknapp and Jol showed that at Spurs and plenty of other managers are playing good football nowadays too; Slot, Maresca, Silva and Iraola to name just a few in the Prem. The latter seems like Pochettino’s clone with his style of football and career path.

Ultimately I think we have a board that doesn’t show enough footballing ambition and a manager who is unfortunately well out of his depth. I think a lot of our fanbase are in a situation where they despise the board so much they’d rather persist with the manager just to spite them and hope it forces them to back him but I don’t truly believe many have a lot of faith in Postecoglou himself.

If fans despise the Board who took a team that had never qualified for the CL to being in it many times and who've just delivered our best run of high league finishes ever, entirely on money raised organically within the club while showing the ambition to build one of the best stadiums in the world...then I don't have very much common ground with them.

 

[KingHotspur]

Jol was an untried manager, Postecoglou is actually a very experienced one just not so much at the top level (and I think it shows to be honest), so it’s not really new territory for us.

I don’t personally view his style as risky either but more chaotic and ultimately unsustainable. We’ve also become easy to read, our last two opposition have had players give post-match interviews telling us how they set up to beat us, Elanga especially made it sound so easy - “There was space in behind. There was loads of space in the game, that is how Tottenham play - with the high line”…

You can play good football without the naivety, stupidity and recklessness too. Pochettino, Redknapp and Jol showed that at Spurs and plenty of other managers are playing good football nowadays too; Slot, Maresca, Silva and Iraola to name just a few in the Prem. The latter seems like Pochettino’s clone with his style of football and career path.

Ultimately I think we have a board that doesn’t show enough footballing ambition and a manager who is unfortunately well out of his depth. I think a lot of our fanbase are in a situation where they despise the board so much they’d rather persist with the manager just to spite them and hope it forces them to back him but I don’t truly believe many have a lot of faith in Postecoglou himself.

Sometimes it’s like you’re in my head. Couldn’t have said it better myself.

 

[KingHotspur]

If fans despise the Board who took a team that had never qualified for the CL to being in it many times and who've just delivered our best run of high league finishes ever, entirely on money raised organically within the club while showing the ambition to build one of the best stadiums in the world...then I don't have very much common ground with them.

Personally wouldn’t say I despise the board but they definitely haven’t invested enough on the pitch. Never forget what Levy said when he was first linked with Spurs and that was it’s purely financial and not emotional.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

Jol was an untried manager, Postecoglou is actually a very experienced one just not so much at the top level (and I think it shows to be honest), so it’s not really new territory for us.

I don’t personally view his style as risky either but more chaotic and ultimately unsustainable. We’ve also become easy to read, our last two opposition have had players give post-match interviews telling us how they set up to beat us, Elanga especially made it sound so easy - “There was space in behind. There was loads of space in the game, that is how Tottenham play - with the high line”…

You can play good football without the naivety, stupidity and recklessness too. Pochettino, Redknapp and Jol showed that at Spurs and plenty of other managers are playing good football nowadays too; Slot, Maresca, Silva and Iraola to name just a few in the Prem. The latter seems like Pochettino’s clone with his style of football and career path.

Ultimately I think we have a board that doesn’t show enough footballing ambition and a manager who is unfortunately well out of his depth. I think a lot of our fanbase are in a situation where they despise the board so much they’d rather persist with the manager just to spite them and hope it forces them to back him but I don’t truly believe many have a lot of faith in Postecoglou himself.

Jol wasn't untried, though, as he'd been managing in the Eredivisie for eight years by that point (which is about as long as ten Hag, for comparison's sake) and he was put forward by Arnesen - but because we'd just had nine months of David Pleat as caretaker Levy "needed" A Big Name™ and we got lumbered with Santini

Briefly, anyway...

 

[PowerSpurs]

Personally wouldn’t say I despise the board but they definitely haven’t invested enough on the pitch. Never forget what Levy said when he was first linked with Spurs and that was it’s purely financial and not emotional.

That's exactly the owner I want. Zero chance of doing a Leeds or worse. ENIC's only issue is not being rich enough or needing to launder money.

 

[PowerSpurs]

Jol was an untried manager, Postecoglou is actually a very experienced one just not so much at the top level (and I think it shows to be honest), so it’s not really new territory for us.

I don’t personally view his style as risky either but more chaotic and ultimately unsustainable. We’ve also become easy to read, our last two opposition have had players give post-match interviews telling us how they set up to beat us, Elanga especially made it sound so easy - “There was space in behind. There was loads of space in the game, that is how Tottenham play - with the high line”…

You can play good football without the naivety, stupidity and recklessness too. Pochettino, Redknapp and Jol showed that at Spurs and plenty of other managers are playing good football nowadays too; Slot, Maresca, Silva and Iraola to name just a few in the Prem. The latter seems like Pochettino’s clone with his style of football and career path.

Ultimately I think we have a board that doesn’t show enough footballing ambition and a manager who is unfortunately well out of his depth. I think a lot of our fanbase are in a situation where they despise the board so much they’d rather persist with the manager just to spite them and hope it forces them to back him but I don’t truly believe many have a lot of faith in Postecoglou himself.

And on the first half of your post...none of the managers you mention were risk takers...they finished every season very close to pre-season expectations. I want more chaos and volatility!

 

[The RDBD]

Did not see the game, but given basic stats available
beforehand a 1-0 win to Forest was the most likely outcome.

No PL top 4 this season, that is near certain.
Can Levy depend on the manager :

- at least finishing in an EL slot (the "numbers" are currently very bad)

- reaching and winning the EL final ( ^ "numbers" are ^ squad morale is)


I don't think so.