Match Day Thread Tottenham Hotspur v Ipswich Town

[KingHotspur]

The flip side of this is that only 2 teams have won more games in the Premier League than Spurs and it's City and Liverpool.

I know it’s easier said than done and very obvious but turning some of these losses to draws would go such a long way to ‘fixing’ Spurs

 

[redwhiteandermblue]

I find the anti-Ange brigade absurd. He took over a club in a state of flux after failures by two very experienced managers and which had to sell one of it's best ever players. We nevertheless both improved our league position and goals scored in his first year. This year we've continued to score more than two goals per game in the PL, improved our goals conceded by about 0.5 per game, knocked Man City out of the League Cup and are doing fine in the Europa. The actual results in the PL are disappointing but to win 5 games easily while losing five by a single goal is more likely to be a statistical anomaly than anything else. Now is not the time to panic!

I have all the time in the world for Ange...though being no less fickle than many fans, that may change in a heartbeat. IMO, Spurs are playing the way Spurs should play, and long may it continue. Conte and especially Mourinho still seem like living nightmares. I'd give him a 10 year unbreakable contract if given the chance and if such a thing existed.

(Edit--decided to edit out bizarre attempt at joke, on second thought)

But I'm honestly not optimistic. The wolves circle awfully quickly around Spurs managers. An unhappy player or two in the dressing room can poison half the squad in no time during a bad run. I think Ange had better figure out a way to stop fielding tired teams soon or he's in trouble...there's one CB in particular who could use a really long break. Maybe reserve a table for him at the restaurant at the end of the universe. The fixture congestion will go on and on this year thanks to the Europa. The only way I can think of him refreshing the squad is to cut practice time way down, and neither he nor most managers seem the kind to try doing less in times of trouble.

 

[The Huddlefro]

If you go and watch back all the league goals we’ve conceded this season, it’s apparent that we’re weak at defending our box. A lot of the time it’s crosses and second balls that lead to shots and goals. Our back post defending is also frequently suspect. This suggests that

• Our FBs are not performing defensively, likely due to form
• We lack a CB who is an organiser of a defence, and sometimes struggle with defending the ball in the air
• We aren’t doing a good enough job either a) funnelling the ball into the middle of the pitch, where we can defend more effectively on the ground or, b) protecting the FBs so they don’t get isolated

For me there’s some coaching issues in there as well as recruitment and squad depth. I think Ange deserves a chance to sort the former out, and the latter takes time. We’re on that path but we need to make more good recruitment decisions.

 

[RRich]

I think the idea that we work harder than other PL teams is a total myth. When you look at average or overall distance covered, the difference between teams is negligible and although the most recent data I could find was from a month ago, we aren't even in the top 3 of overall distance covered. That goes to B'mouth, Brighton and Brentford.

However, the same data showed that we are top for overall sprints:

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This, I feel, is where the real fatigue problem lies. The system demands sprints, but only from specific players. Mostly the back line, but the forward line also takes a huge brunt of it as they are constantly sprinting to achieve the high press.

The strain on those two areas is obvious. If you were to plot our injuries over time under Ange on a graph and categorise them by position, the overwhelming majority belong to our defenders or attackers. Even Bentancur and Bissouma who both had extensive injury issues before Ange joined and at previous clubs have been surprisingly injury free (notwithstanding contributions by Twatty Cash) since. Kulusevski hasn't had a single injury under Ange, despite missing a chunk of games under Conte/Mason. Sarr has had one minor knock and Maddison hasn't had one since the Chelsea game last year.

The point isn't that the midfielders need to work harder to ease the strain on the other areas. The system is designed so that the entire back four is regularly 40 yards out of position and needing to sprint to get back. It is designed so that the 3 attackers need to tirelessly chase the ball across the final third. The system is similarly designed so that the midfielders aren't meant to spring much at all - that is the whole point of a high press, that the midfield's zone of operation shrinks from 100 yards to 50.

What we need is more quality there. Players who lessen the workload on others by simply doing more to control possession and dictate the game. The level of quality in our passing that I am watching on a regular basis is poorer than anything I can recall in recent years. Even simple passes are going straight to opposition players or straight out of play. If the former happens and the opposition are useful with the ball, that triggers a need for multiple players to sprint back like mad to get back in the shape.

All of Bissouma, Bentancur, Maddison and Kulusevski can be significantly upgraded imo. I've been banging on about it all summer and all season, but I was staggered that we prioritised spending money on more attacking players when last season showed that the midfield is a chronic problem. Archie Gray and Lucas Bergvall are potential upgrades for years down the road. Here and now, the midfield is the team's weak link and it is killing the whole system as a result, leading not just to defeats but to injuries too.

The three midfielders mentioned are massively overrated - great marketing and the odd good game but generally average EPL players.

 

[RRich]

Who was that little guy with all the skills in the final third for Ipswich? Made him look like Messi

lets sign him

 

[Left on the Shelf]

Pochettino sending Spurs out of contention by playing Kane while still injured

Correct! But don't get me 're'started on that particular subject...
I still seriously wonder how that decision to play Kane ahead of Moura - something that defied both logic and common decency - impacted the team's focus on the day. If there was already some disquiet in the dressing room (as Lloris alludes to) then dropping the guy who single-handedly got them to the final would have done nothing for team morale.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

Being a Spurs fan has had occasional annoyances. Their crowning glory, outweighing Levy's last minute fax failure to get Moutinho, the key to AVB's system, in a year Spurs missed the CL by one or two points was it?, was Pochettino sending Spurs out of contention by playing Kane while still injured

for the third time that year.

If I had one redo, it would be playing Liverpool in the CL final with 11 players rather than 10 who could run and one who had to limp. Play the same players and subs who played against Ajax, though maybe...maybe...bringing a limping Kane on late. Say they earned their spot with how they'd played.

Thanks for the stats and analysis., which I learned from.

Upgrading anywhere is always helpful. I grant your logic that better midfielders would equal less fatigue, and really like the idea concerning the point of Angeball (more control for the midfield). But I don't view the midfield as a relative weakness. I would say the back line is the best of the three groups. Midfield and the forwards are at a similar level, I think. My disagreement is that the Aston Villa game was the best I've ever seen Spurs play (though granted I'm very subjective, and no doubt influenced by watching on a huge screen instead of watching white and navy ants scurry around.)

So my conclusion ATM is that Spurs are good but burned out...and unlikely to get unburned out anytime soon. But maybe I'm wrong. I've been wrong before.

Once. July 16, 1987.

In any case, if some better analysis presents itself, or is presented to me, I will in theory drop the one I have like a bad transmission. I may, on the other hand, cling to my mistaken opinion like grim death.

But for now for me it's fatigue abetted by poor decisions (not limiting players' minutes, for one). Poor decisions are inevitable and yet can always account for a lack of trophies for a club Tottenham's size. I've banged on about a couple of bad purchases for too long to do so again for a bit, anyway. (One of them made War and Peace look pithy.) What strikes me now is that the process where neither one of the two reserve FBs was registered for the Europa wasn't a bad decision so much as insane, self-sabotaging and/or the result of an intervention by a coven of witches.

To be burned out as early as November is inexcusable imo. We have a deeper squad than last year and have rotated pretty heavily for the cup competitions.

Liverpool and Arsenal (and probably City and Villa too, I haven't checked) players have each made on average 4-5 more appearances than ours already this season, due to the simple fact that no one can afford to rotate heavily for CL games and certainly not in the new league format which has so many more variables and permutations than the old group stages.

I understand how and why a number of posters look at the problem and see 'tiredness' as the solution, but it doesn't ring true for me. I see an entrenched lack of quality and experience across almost the entire team, with a terminal lack of leadership thrown in for good measure.

Not a single member of the current first team would get into Poch's 16/17 team. That's a huge concern.

 

[Left on the Shelf]

The flip side of this is that only 2 teams have won more games in the Premier League than Spurs and it's City and Liverpool.

Rollercoasters are great....until you projectile vomit!!

 

[Citizen Kane.]

If you go and watch back all the league goals we’ve conceded this season, it’s apparent that we’re weak at defending our box. A lot of the time it’s crosses and second balls that lead to shots and goals. Our back post defending is also frequently suspect. This suggests that

• Our FBs are not performing defensively, likely due to form
• We lack a CB who is an organiser of a defence, and sometimes struggle with defending the ball in the air
• We aren’t doing a good enough job either a) funnelling the ball into the middle of the pitch, where we can defend more effectively on the ground or, b) protecting the FBs so they don’t get isolated

For me there’s some coaching issues in there as well as recruitment and squad depth. I think Ange deserves a chance to sort the former out, and the latter takes time. We’re on that path but we need to make more good recruitment decisions.

For me it's slightly more than that.

We're weak at defending our box because in most cases the players doing it are arriving there at a sprint from being completely out of position. It is inevitably chaotic and panicked. There isn't time to get things organised. There was a point against Gala (one of their offside goals iirc) where the 'line' looked more like the hypotenuse of a triangle. It was all over the place and we were lucky it was flagged offside.

We are not doing enough to stem opposition attacks at source. We are very good at winning possession back in the opposition half, but once they've beaten our press and cross the halfway line (i.e. once we are forced to turn and try to keep goal side of them), there is zero resistance between that point and our box.

Again, I turn to the midfield on this and again wonder out loud why we didn't make more of an effort to sign someone like Onana from Everton to give us more protection in the middle of the park.

 

[Left on the Shelf]

Not a single member of the current first team would get into Poch's 16/17 team.

My first instinct was to challenge this....but you're 100% right! Some have the ability to get there, but as a unit now I wouldn't swap any of them.

 

[Left on the Shelf]

If you go and watch back all the league goals we’ve conceded this season, it’s apparent that we’re weak at defending our box. A lot of the time it’s crosses and second balls that lead to shots and goals. Our back post defending is also frequently suspect. This suggests that

• Our FBs are not performing defensively, likely due to form
• We lack a CB who is an organiser of a defence, and sometimes struggle with defending the ball in the air
• We aren’t doing a good enough job either a) funnelling the ball into the middle of the pitch, where we can defend more effectively on the ground or, b) protecting the FBs so they don’t get isolated

For me there’s some coaching issues in there as well as recruitment and squad depth. I think Ange deserves a chance to sort the former out, and the latter takes time. We’re on that path but we need to make more good recruitment decisions.

Agree with most of this, but would add that we also have no on-field leader/s and a keeper who - although a good shot stopper - is erratic in distribution and panicky, inspiring no confidence in his team. That cannot help add discipline to the unit.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

My first instinct was to challenge this....but you're 100% right! Some have the ability to get there, but as a unit now I wouldn't swap any of them.

It's not even a close call. Micky and Udogie possibly have the potential to reach the levels of Jan and Rose, but beyond them the gap player by player is enormous.

Poch's Spurs would beat Ange's Spurs 5-0. They would just toy with us.

 

[Dier Hard]

It's not even a close call. Micky and Udogie possibly have the potential to reach the levels of Jan and Rose, but beyond them the gap player by player is enormous.

Poch's Spurs would beat Ange's Spurs 5-0. They would just toy with us.

I said this about 2-3 months ago, I think I even said it to you, lol.

One thing I will say though is that the quality of football is decreasing for arguably the first time ever, or since I’ve been alive anyway. The recent Balon d’Or reflected it, Rodri and Vinicius for as good as they are, aren’t patches on both former winners and non-winners.

And so whilst I absolutely agree that Poch wipes the floor with Ange with his team (and as a manager), we also have to take into consideration how our quality of players are relative to its market. I don’t think they’re as bad as what 10th place in the table currently dictates.

I think a good indicator as to whether these players are top 6 worthy or not is assessing if you believe they are within the best six of their position in the league - but you have to do it based on their ability/ quality, not their form, as their’s or other’s form could be affected by injuries/ tactics/ other reasoning. Chris Wood currently being the second best striker in the league highlights as such. I think around 70% of our first XI are top 6 players but not many are top 4 and it’s why we needed 2-3 first team quality additions this summer to make top 6 a guarantee and top 4 very possible. Poch’s team in comparison back then had most if not all the XI inside the top three of their position in the league and our finishes of 3rd, 2nd and 3rd backed it up.

 

[fieldmarshall]

Who was that little guy with all the skills in the final third for Ipswich? Made him look like Messi

lets sign him

Omari Hutchinson, we had him on loan from Chelsea last season and he impressed once he got into what he calls Big Boys Football ( he's very young ) so we signed him in the summer.

 

[RRich]

Omari Hutchinson, we had him on loan from Chelsea last season and he impressed once he got into what he calls Big Boys Football ( he's very young ) so we signed him in the summer.

Looked good…the hunger too

 

[remembercolinlee]

I saw Ange took responsibility for the poor performance in his post match interview.
Didn't complain about a possibly penalty not given or having a goal ruled out, just said it was a poor performance. Hopefully this is a case of not throwing individuals under the bus publicly while laying down the law in the dressing room.

I get losing...I am bizarrely optimistic about our potential to have a positive season but the manner of the second half player performance v Brighton, and the performances v Palace and Ipswich suggested the players were not up for it for the want of a better word. And that's unacceptable for me.

 

[The Huddlefro]

For me it's slightly more than that.

We're weak at defending our box because in most cases the players doing it are arriving there at a sprint from being completely out of position. It is inevitably chaotic and panicked. There isn't time to get things organised. There was a point against Gala (one of their offside goals iirc) where the 'line' looked more like the hypotenuse of a triangle. It was all over the place and we were lucky it was flagged offside.

We are not doing enough to stem opposition attacks at source. We are very good at winning possession back in the opposition half, but once they've beaten our press and cross the halfway line (i.e. once we are forced to turn and try to keep goal side of them), there is zero resistance between that point and our box.

Again, I turn to the midfield on this and again wonder out loud why we didn't make more of an effort to sign someone like Onana from Everton to give us more protection in the middle of the park.

I agree here. We’re one of the more effective pressing teams in the league but the FBs get out of position and can’t recover to help the 6 in transition, or defend the wide areas as effectively in the next phase. I think it comes down to the FBs again and also, as a secondary concern, lack of a consistently top, top player at 6. Bentancur can be that player but he’s inconsistent.

Agree with most of this, but would add that we also have no on-field leader/s and a keeper who - although a good shot stopper - is erratic in distribution and panicky, inspiring no confidence in his team. That cannot help add discipline to the unit.

Yeah this also probably doesn’t help. I don’t think his distribution issues are as major as some say but his lack of confidence and authority commanding his box is a problem. He doesn’t project an aura. Vic is a good keeper but he’s not one of the game’s elite, if we’re being realistic.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

I saw Ange took responsibility for the poor performance in his post match interview.
Didn't complain about a possibly penalty not given or having a goal ruled out, just said it was a poor performance. Hopefully this is a case of not throwing individuals under the bus publicly while laying down the law in the dressing room.

I get losing...I am bizarrely optimistic about our potential to have a positive season but the manner of the second half player performance v Brighton, and the performances v Palace and Ipswich suggested the players were not up for it for the want of a better word. And that's unacceptable for me.

This concerns me too. The points dropped against Leicester, Toon and Woolwich came out of solid performances where we were either the much better side or at least more than held our own.

By contrast, the points we've dropped since have been from woeful performances that if anything should have been even heavier defeats.

 

[PowerSpurs]

This concerns me too. The points dropped against Leicester, Toon and Woolwich came out of solid performances where we were either the much better side or at least more than held our own.

By contrast, the points we've dropped since have been from woeful performances that if anything should have been even heavier defeats.

I don't think that is true of Ipswich. We had the three best chances of the game and their attacking play was very poor except for the good finish of the first goal. The second goal was just a gift.

 

[PowerSpurs]

Our league form Since matchday 10 of last season:

LLLDLWWWLWDWDWLWWLWDWLLLLWLW DWLLWWLWLWL

It's all over the place.

Very hard to build momentum when the next defeat is just around the corner.

I wouldn't even mind a series of draws, just to establish a bit of solidity and consistency.

We don't need to be more consistent just better. Our goal difference for the last 28 matches last season was dire but we still scored a lot of goals so won enough matches to get fifth.
This year we have improved goals conceded dramatically but somehow contrived to lose 5 games by a single goal. It would be bizarre if that continued. My fear is that we will revert to last years ending form though which would not be acceptable.

By the way your post is a case book study of how not to use statistics. You're hardly likely to find evidence of a consistent Winning run if you leave the only one out as a matter of policy!