Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%

  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%
  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
Stroller said:
That's actually a rather good post. Immigration has always been a positive thing for the UK and any political party that promises to reduce it to the tens of thousands a year whilst growing the economy at the same time is just lying to the electorate. The racists and xenophobes should be called out for what they are. The best solution, both for economic growth and for the immigration issue, is to rejoin the Single Market and return to free movement within the EU. But of course no political party dare say that right now.
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But not every concern around immigration is a racist one.
Some concerns are legitimate to those adversely affected imo.
 
Stroller said:
I'd be interested to read people's justifications for saying they'll vote Tory.
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There's no justification, I agree.
They don't deserve to be returned.
But as Stan says, there doesn't appear to be much love for Starmer's Labour Party either.
 
Stroller said:
The lie is that you can slash immigration without adversely affecting the economy.
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There's increasing evidence that mass immigration reduces GDP per capita. This is because instead of bringing in high-skilled immigrants, we've taken low skilled incomers, often coming into bargain basement UK "universities" with dependents to pretend to study Mickey-Mouse degree,s and then stay on. They undercut local workers.
 
Goldhawk-Road said:
There's increasing evidence that mass immigration reduces GDP per capita. This is because instead of bringing in high-skilled immigrants, we've taken low skilled incomers, often coming into bargain basement UK "universities" with dependents to pretend to study Mickey-Mouse degree,s and then stay on. They undercut local workers.
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We have an ageing population and a declining birth rate. There just aren't enough people of working age to fuel the economy without a fairly high level of immigration, irrespective of skill levels. The health and social care sectors, where there are very high levels of vacancies, are particularly dependent on immigrant workers.
 
Stroller said:
We have an ageing population and a declining birth rate. There just aren't enough people of working age to fuel the economy without a fairly high level of immigration, irrespective of skill levels. The health and social care sectors, where there are very high levels of vacancies, are particularly dependent on immigrant workers.
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This is an archaic argument, that creates a Ponzi scheme effect and is not sustainable. All the hundreds of thousands of immigrants and their dependents will need looking after, now and in the future. And your solution would presumably be to bring in more immigrants then x 10 to service them. And so on...

It's not for nothing that both the Tories and Labour are promising to reduce legal immigration. But neither will get their arses into gear until they think they'll lose votes by continuing lethargy on the issue. This is a large part of the substance of the Reform protest vote. One Nation Tories need to join the Liberal Party.
 
sb_73 said:
Starmer saying he ‘won’t make promises he can’t keep’ which is equating to not saying anything at all. I assume they will have to produce a manifesto at some stage. I’ll hold off deciding whether or not to vote and if yes who for until I’ve seen all of the manifestos.

Despite the polls, apparent collapse of the Tory vote and other comparisons this feels very different to 1997. Then a lot of us felt positive about voting for New Labour, not just because the Tories were **** and exhausted, but because there was some kind of different future and approach being described, even if many of us developed buyers remorse later. This time I don’t get the sense that there will be much more than a negative anti Tory wave. Not hearing any excitement about current Labour, and even those people I know who are thinking of voting Reform are calling it a protest vote rather than buying into their weird little world.
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Agreed on the whole - I'll probably vote Labour for the first time ever, but not out of huge enthusiasm. The way Starmer has stood up to the left wing of his party gets him a reasonable amount of credit in my book - Abbott, Corbyn out, the likes of McDonnell silent and knowing one wrong move and they're out. Gives me a small amount of hope that we won't see govt veering to appease internal factions the way the Tories have since 2015. Probably false hope, but who knows.

I don't think it will be as huge a Lab majority as people think - I'm guessing not above 100. Govts almost always close the gap a bit in elections and Lab manifesto will commit to some things (however few) that will turn some people off.
 
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Goldhawk-Road said:
This is an archaic argument, that creates a Ponzi scheme effect and is not sustainable. All the hundreds of thousands of immigrants and their dependents will need looking after, now and in the future. And your solution would presumably be to bring in more immigrants then x 10 to service them. And so on...

It's not for nothing that both the Tories and Labour are promising to reduce legal immigration. But neither will get their arses into gear until they think they'll lose votes by continuing lethargy on the issue. This is a large part of the substance of the Reform protest vote. One Nation Tories need to join the Liberal Party.
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These 'unsustainable' levels of immigration have hardly resulted in a massive increase in the overall UK population....
  • The population of U.K. in 2024 is 67,961,439, a 0.33% increase from 2023.
  • The population of U.K. in 2023 was 67,736,802, a 0.34% increase from 2022.
  • The population of U.K. in 2022 was 67,508,936, a 0.34% increase from 2021.
  • The population of U.K. in 2021 was 67,281,039, a 0.33% increase from 2020.
Which kind of makes my point as to how the population would be declining otherwise.

The UN projects a UK population of 70,485,272 by the year 2100.

U.K. Population Growth Rate 1950-2024 | MacroTrends
 
rangercol said:
There's no justification, I agree.
They don't deserve to be returned.
But as Stan says, there doesn't appear to be much love for Starmer's Labour Party either.
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sb_73 said:
Starmer saying he ‘won’t make promises he can’t keep’ which is equating to not saying anything at all. I assume they will have to produce a manifesto at some stage. I’ll hold off deciding whether or not to vote and if yes who for until I’ve seen all of the manifestos.

Despite the polls, apparent collapse of the Tory vote and other comparisons this feels very different to 1997. Then a lot of us felt positive about voting for New Labour, not just because the Tories were **** and exhausted, but because there was some kind of different future and approach being described, even if many of us developed buyers remorse later. This time I don’t get the sense that there will be much more than a negative anti Tory wave. Not hearing any excitement about current Labour, and even those people I know who are thinking of voting Reform are calling it a protest vote rather than buying into their weird little world.
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Starmer is being ultra-cautious about what he will commit to, but he should be much more communicative about what he would like to do, given a fair wind.

Clement Attlee was considered boring, but his government changed Britain. I'm clinging to the hope that Starmer will be much more radical in government than he's prepared to admit to right now.
 
Stroller said:
These 'unsustainable' levels of immigration have hardly resulted in a massive increase in the overall UK population....
  • The population of U.K. in 2024 is 67,961,439, a 0.33% increase from 2023.
  • The population of U.K. in 2023 was 67,736,802, a 0.34% increase from 2022.
  • The population of U.K. in 2022 was 67,508,936, a 0.34% increase from 2021.
  • The population of U.K. in 2021 was 67,281,039, a 0.33% increase from 2020.
Which kind of makes my point as to how the population would be declining otherwise.

The UN projects a UK population of 70,485,272 by the year 2100.

U.K. Population Growth Rate 1950-2024 | MacroTrends
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Here's the population increase since 1800. Show me evidence of population decline there. The UK is much smaller in area than France and Germany, and this rate of population growth is not sustainable, and still keep a green agenda on the environment, agriculture etc


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demog...dia/File:Population_development_of_the_UK.svg
 
rangercol said:
Thing is Bob. Anyone who praises the tories or criticises Labour for anything automatically gets labelled as "right wing" etc.
I bet we're not a million miles apart in what our core values are.
I've just lost all confidence in the entire political class, who I believe to be the worst in my lifetime.
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When the choice came down to Johnson or Corbyn then it says a lot about the state of the country at that time. I'm not really a political person, I vote for what's the best interests for myself and my family. I'm sure we aren't a million miles away in core values, as you say.
 
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Stroller said:
I'd be interested to read people's justifications for saying they'll vote Tory.
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I traditionally vote Tory,
I made my money under a Thatcher/ Major government, managed to keep some of it under a Blair government when Brown tried to tax us to death,recovered under a Cameron led Tory government & despite not agreeing with Brexit accepted the majority voted for it, I believe Rishi Sunak being a money man will have a better grip on the country's finances than Keir Starmer who doesn't seem to commit to anything.
 
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peter1954qpr said:
I traditionally vote Tory,
I made my money under a Thatcher/ Major government, managed to keep some of it under a Blair government when Brown tried to tax us to death,recovered under a Cameron led Tory government & despite not agreeing with Brexit accepted the majority voted for it, I believe Rishi Sunak being a money man will have a better grip on the country's finances than Keir Starmer who doesn't seem to commit to anything.
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At least that's honest, I suppose.
 
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