Great Expectations!

[Citizen Kane.]

I think our defence will improve as the players gain experience. Romero is the the leader with experience but VDV is still very much learning as is Udogie. Poro has dramatically improved form his start at Spurs. A lot is being asked of them and as you say the midfield is not working properly yet. Bisouma declined after his red card and his African tournament. I was beginning to think the malaria had scuppered him but he seems to be improving in recent games. I had a friend who got malaria and it never goes away every so often he finds himself ill and weak. Reports said the malaria he caught does not have lasting effects. I hope that is right. I thought Bisouma was going to be our midfield enforcer but that has not happened so far. I think you can see Vicario adapting and getting more robust. I think he was just shocked that he received no protection from the ref, and so was I.

Watching back parts of the game and focusing on their goals, while there are obvious defensive errors (Gigi beaten too easily at his near post, where have we heard that before?, Royal losing Salah etc.), what concerned me enormously is that every single Liverpool goal came with one of the CMs at least 20 yards away from the action and the other two doing absolutely nothing of note. The combinations change for each goal as well, which suggest that this isn't about individual players, it's about the collective not understanding what it is meant to be doing.

Goal 1 (Salah): All three CMs are located within 10 yards of each other. They are neither marking anyone nor putting pressure on the player with the ball.

Goal 2 (Robertson): Bentancur is 30 yards out of position, slowly jogging his way back. The other two are chasing the ball not the runners.

Goal 3 (Gakpo): Sarr is 40 yards out of position, the other two are again just drifting about aimlessly. Romero should be stronger in the air but he has Gakpo and Diaz to deal with at the same time, because no one is covering him.

Goal 4 (Elliot): Admittedly a top class strike, but he has all the time in the world to pick his spot. Bentancur makes a half arsed attempt to tackle, Bissouma just watches him line up the shot, and Sarr is once again marking thin air in the box.


It's a complete mess.

 

[Spurf]

Watching back parts of the game and focusing on their goals, while there are obvious defensive errors (Gigi beaten too easily at his near post, where have we heard that before?, Royal losing Salah etc.), what concerned me enormously is that every single Liverpool goal came with one of the CMs at least 20 yards away from the action and the other two doing absolutely nothing of note. The combinations change for each goal as well, which suggest that this isn't about individual players, it's about the collective not understanding what it is meant to be doing.

Goal 1 (Salah): All three CMs are located within 10 yards of each other. They are neither marking anyone nor putting pressure on the player with the ball.

Goal 2 (Robertson): Bentancur is 30 yards out of position, slowly jogging his way back. The other two are chasing the ball not the runners.
Royal has stepped in and clearly was having problems on that side of the pitch so that unnerves the rest. Romero had to be stopped by Vicario getting between them at the end of the half. Then he's up against Sala. All this changes with experience provided the ability is there and I think VdV , Udogie, and Poro have loads of ability. For me , as I have said , this season is a transition and I accept that. I just don't want any more transition seasons for a few years. We need stability above all else.
Goal 3 (Gakpo): Sarr is 40 yards out of position, the other two are again just drifting about aimlessly. Romero should be stronger in the air but he has Gakpo and Diaz to deal with at the same time, because no one is covering him.

Goal 4 (Elliot): Admittedly a top class strike, but he has all the time in the world to pick his spot. Bentancur makes a half arsed attempt to tackle, Bissouma just watches him line up the shot, and Sarr is once again marking thin air in the box.


It's a complete mess.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

My tuppence:

I think what we're seeing is the result of Ange's inexperience at this level.

That doesn't mean he isn't the right man for the job - I always think back to BMJ joining from a bottom half Dutch team playing in stadium with a capacity of 7,000.

It also doesn't mean he won't learn from and improve off this experience.

What it does mean is that he likely needs a lot of time to do the above, far more than manager who has been there and done it. I'd go so far as to say that there may even been issues or tweaks that most of us can spot and even solve, because we've been watching nothing other than PL football for decades. For Ange, there may well be things that are completely new to him.

So while we're sitting here thinking that an international break or a couple of weeks off due to the FA cup is 'plenty of time' for work on the training ground and QED we expect an improvement immediately after, the truth is that Ange needs months, not weeks, to reflect on these experiences and implement changes.

I sense a desperation in him to get to the end of the season and have the whole summer to work with. But with so many players at the Euros, he doesn't have nearly as much time as he'd probably like.

This will be his greatest challenge.

I really hope he is given the biggest budget we've ever given a manager this summer. I hope we get our targets in early so as to give him the time he needs working with them. If we do both of these things, the rest is really on his shoulders to start showing sustained improvement.

 

[The RDBD]

That right there though is a huge part of the problem in football culture nowadays.

Belittling a trophy in favour of finishing top four.

I’d happily never finish top four again in my lifetime if we won a domestic cup every season.

Cathy Newman time ...

So you're saying, that you would gladly watch N games
each season of Spurs playing Portu-ball, if it means at the
end of the season Spurs win at least one domestic trophy ... ??

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

As of right now there isn’t a single player seemingly playing like they know what they’re doing though. The whole team looks completely lost and bereft of any ideas. Our keeper’s forgotten to save shots. Our defence can’t defend. Our midfield can’t do a damn thing. Our forwards look like they’ve forgotten they need to be shooting and getting into the box. There isn’t one single bright light, the POTS vote this year is a tough one but not really for good reasoning.

To then make the need for change statement Ange said - which was actually very refreshing - only to then select the same players who’ve been letting him and us down for months, it was basically a “doh” moment. He’d buy a lot more good will if he actually showed desire to change it up. Get Dragusin in the team, reward Donley, Santiago, Lankshear and co for their excellent seasons and go from there. They won’t do any worse than the senior players stinking it up and it won’t break any of their confidence that so many seem to imply will happen either because if they see the senior stars being **** then they don’t have any expectations to live up to. We might see some actual umph and desire to play for the shirt with some of these young lads too.

Much of which coincides with Udogie being rules out for the rest of the season, and as a result our left flank has collapsed due to missing a key component of how our play is built up on that side and Emerson just can't replicate that for a myriad of reasons (i.e. lacking the pace and control of Udogie, being right-footed, and being more of a flank-hugging FB instead of an inverting one) and with that component not working properly so much of our play gets sucked into a vortex

Add to that how several of our team look knackered at this point in much the same way Poch's first season petered out from the start of April, or in Maddison's case have looked knackered since February, and that's how the domino effect gets started - so when you have players whose natural instincts don't mesh with the tactics things pile up

 

[The RDBD]

Watching back parts of the game and focusing on their goals, while there are obvious defensive errors (Gigi beaten too easily at his near post, where have we heard that before?, Royal losing Salah etc.), what concerned me enormously is that every single Liverpool goal came with one of the CMs at least 20 yards away from the action and the other two doing absolutely nothing of note. The combinations change for each goal as well, which suggest that this isn't about individual players, it's about the collective not understanding what it is meant to be doing.

...

It's a complete mess.

As others have already said, we know the whats
but not the whys (specifically why have players who
had no problems with the system prior to the vermin FC
game appeared so clueless with the same system
after returning from stints on the physio bench etc) .

 

[PowerSpurs]

That right there though is a huge part of the problem in football culture nowadays.

Belittling a trophy in favour of finishing top four.

I’d happily never finish top four again in my lifetime if we won a domestic cup every season.

The only way to improve the chances of a trophy is to improve the team which requires extra money earned from the CL. No-one is belittling trophies but we have to recognise why teams outside the top four rarely win one.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

As others have already said, we know the whats
but not the whys (specifically why have players who
had no problems with the system prior to the vermin FC
game appeared so clueless with the same system
after returning from stints on the physio bench etc) .

We know why they looked so good earlier in the season: other teams hadn't worked us out yet.

And even with all the injuries and suspensions picked up after playing the scum and the huge drop in quality that followed, I firmly believe that widespread unfamiliarity with the 'system' still carried us to some very impressive results such as the win against Newcastle, the draw at City etc.

If I had to pinpoint the moment opposition sides started to really suss us out, it would probably be the Brighton game. We haven't really been convincing since that defeat, even in games we've won (with Villa away being the sole exception). The timing of it was also really typical, with numerous key players flying off for AFCON and Asian Cup just a few days later. We probably missed Son more than anyone. With him, I'd like to think those draws against United and Everton are turned to wins and we'd be right on Villa's coattails despite our abysmal recent form.

Football is like a long term game of chess. We made a new move at the start of the season, our opponents have countered this by targeting specific weaknesses our move opened up, and the ball is now back in our court to counter the counter move and adapt.

I don't think our players are clueless about the system itself. I think they are clueless as to how to respond to the opposition's counter move.

And I think Ange is equally clueless in this regard, see my post above.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

As others have already said, we know the whats
but not the whys (specifically why have players who
had no problems with the system prior to the vermin FC
game appeared so clueless with the same system
after returning from stints on the physio bench etc) .

We know why they looked so good earlier in the season: other teams hasn't worked us out yet.

And even with all the injuries and suspensions picked up after playing the scum and the huge drop in quality that followed, I firmly believe that widespread unfamiliarity with the 'system' still carried us to some very impressive results such as the win against Newcastle, the draw at City etc.

If I had to pinpoint the moment opposition sides started to really suss us out, it would probably be the Brighton game. We haven't really been convincing since that defeat, even in games we've won (with Villa away being the sole exception). The timing of it was also really typical, with numerous key players flying off for AFCON and Asian Cup just a few days later. We probably missed Son more than anyone. With him, I'd like to think those draws against United and Everton are turned to wins and we'd be right on Villa's coattails despite our abysmal recent form.

Football is like a long term game of chess. We made a new move at the start of the season, our opponents have countered this by targeting specific weaknesses our move opened up, and the ball is now back in our court to counter the counter move and adapt.

I don't think our players are clueless about the system itself. I think they are clueless as to how to respond to the opposition's counter move.

And I think Ange is equally clueless in this regard, see my post above.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

Also worth mentioning the fact that we have the third youngest squad in the PL and were it not for the fact that Fraser Forster is 100 years old, we'd be second to Chelsea.

Kane, Dier, Perisic and Hugo departing in close succession basically tore out most of the squad's experience. Davies and Son are the only outfield players over the age of 30 and one of them isn't a regular starter.

That lack of experience is telling and one of the many reasons why if by some miracle it can be done, we bring Modric back for one last hurrah.

 

[The Huddlefro]

I think we have to give time and invest in Ange and the squad he wants to play his football. As others have said the green shoots are there and while losing 4 on the bounce is a long way from acceptable we have seen enough over the course of the season to know that Ange’s football is watchable and will produce results.

The time of being able to bring in a quick fix manager and be competitive at the sharp end of the PL is gone. There are too many resources, on and off the pitch, across the league to take that approach. Jose is a classic example. A master motivator with the right group of players and one of the truly phenomenal managers of a one off game, but he’ll get found out nowadays over time.

We probably all have a bad taste in our mouths right now because of recent results and the general trend since the turn of the year, but changing the manager and the structure again now would be madness IMO. The biggest thing we need to do is keep building the squad. Bring in players who are first and foremost technically excellent and have the right mentality and not only will we improve under Ange but we’ll be set for his successor if and when that happens in the future.

 

[Dier Hard]

Cathy Newman time ...

So you're saying, that you would gladly watch N games
each season of Spurs playing Portu-ball, if it means at the
end of the season Spurs win at least one domestic trophy ... ??

No, I’d rather play attractive football and win a trophy and I’d rather win a trophy than finish top four if the option was one or the other.

 

[Dier Hard]

The only way to improve the chances of a trophy is to improve the team which requires extra money earned from the CL. No-one is belittling trophies but we have to recognise why teams outside the top four rarely win one.

It’s not the only way.

Another way would be to actually take them seriously for a change. There were about 9 changes to the XI when we got knocked out of the first round to Fulham this season.

 

[remembercolinlee]

It’s not the only way.

Another way would be to actually take them seriously for a change. There were about 9 changes to the XI when we got knocked out of the first round to Fulham this season.

I agree...was at the Fulham game and it was telling afterwards that Ange admitted he messed up. Several players were discarded after that game.

 

[The RDBD]

No, I’d rather play attractive football and win a trophy

And if you cannot have both, which will you choose to endure ??

 

[Dier Hard]

And if you cannot have both, which will you choose to endure ??

Win a trophy… there’s no better feeling than winning a trophy in football. Eclipses every bad moment throughout a season and some.

 

[remembercolinlee]

If you produce **** football you have to deliver...every season.
JM got united to second in the league and won a European trophy and a league cup yet was gone within 18 months.

Moyes won West Ham their first trophy in 43 years and is now leaving them just a year later.

Edit
I genuinely did not get the same enjoyment from our 99 league cup final win as with other trophies weve won cos it was as tedious as most games were with bloke in a coat in charge.

Our 1982 win was after 2 terrible matches but that was not the norm by a long shot so I remember that fondly.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

And if you cannot have both, which will you choose to endure ??

Attractive football.

It was what got me hooked on Spurs in the first place.

Entertainment and enjoyment first, bragging rights second.

I also happen to agree with a very important point Ange made ages ago: There is a world of difference between a side that wins trophies and a trophy winning side. Sadly, beyond miraculous exceptions like Leicester and Leverkusen, the latter category grows more dominant with each passing year.

 

[The RDBD]

Attractive football.

It was what got me hooked on Spurs in the first place.

Entertainment and enjoyment first, bragging rights second.

That is the true legacy of the St Nicholson era.

The only reason I felt any joy for the 1991 FA cup win
(the season overall being totally forgettable) was
due to Gazza at his imperious best throughout the run.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

That is the true legacy of the St Nicholson era.

The only reason I felt any joy for the 1991 FA cup win
(the season overall being totally forgettable) was
due to Gazza at his imperious best throughout the run.

I'm too young to properly remember 91 but I'd take the semi final in Amsterdam over that boring as ****e cup win in 99 every day of the week and I know which one I will always reflect on with fondness.