Great Expectations!

[Spurf]

The rumblings are starting, does Ange know what he's doing? Is he out of his depth in the PL? Why does he ignore set pieces? Doesn't he know we lost 2 goals to Arsenal and 2 to Chelsea from set pieces?

I sometimes wonder if the biggest problem Spurs have is not the Manager or the Owner or even the Players it is fickle fans. Spursy is the term coined by us and now used indiscriminately by the media. It's in our DNA to expect Spurs to 'fail' at the last. Is that true or are our expectations just too high?

It's only in the last 20 years that Spurs have been a consistent top 6 club. (Levy haters take note) Just look at one of our most successful periods under Keith Burkinshaw in his first season we finished 22nd then in subsequent seasons it was 11, 14, 10, 4, 4, and finally 7th. That's FOUR seasons before we got to 4th. He would not have lasted more than 2 seasons under the current ownership. Martin Jol began the transformation in 2004 and since then with some exceptions we have been top 6.

Fans have quickly accepted top 6 as the norm and almost a right but it's clearly not, our history tells a different story. We were famous first and foremost as a cup side. Under Venables in season 90/91 we won the FA Cup making us the first club to win 8 FA Cups. We have of course long since lost that record. The first English club to win a European Trophy. Spurs were the cup winning team. We've lost that as well now. There are lots of reasons for our lack of recent cup success but that's for another thread, but one of the reasons is our pursuit of league position. There is money at stake on league position, big money, so it becomes more important.

So why am I talking about Fan Power? Our expectations have been raised, many of our younger fans have never known a Tottenham other than a top 6 club and of course, not a cup winning side. The irony is that fans were happy when we were winning cups and didn't worry that much about league position. Now we are getting messages of discontent with Ange after a flying start. He created a rod for his own back after those first 10 games. I think most fans are saying he needs more time and another season but of course there are always those that call for his head after a few losses. BUT! he probably will only get another season to prove himself because by mid season the fans will be screaming for his head if the results are not right. Burkinshaw would have been sacked long before his success, Fergusson at Man U. would have been sent back to Scotland with a mid table United looking for a new man. A lot of this is pressure from fans, owners, a lot of whom thrive on being loved, are sensitive to fan displeasure, they want to feel the love.

What is clear to me is that continuity in management is a vital factor in a teams success. Every time you change a manager half your squad becomes redundant so changes are needed. This becomes a never ending cycle and we are experiencing that at Spurs. Surely us fans have to become more patient and allow more time for success to be built.

I have always seen the fans job as supporting the team and even if a player falls short, until he leaves he is our player and should get our support. Do we question too much? Well you get the gist I have gone on too long already. Over to you.

 

[BobbyD]

The rumblings are starting, does Ange know what he's doing? Is he out of his depth in the PL? Why does he ignore set pieces? Doesn't he know we lost 2 goals to Arsenal and 2 to Chelsea from set pieces?

I sometimes wonder if the biggest problem Spurs have is not the Manager or the Owner or even the Players it is fickle fans. Spursy is the term coined by us and now used indiscriminately by the media. It's in our DNA to expect Spurs to 'fail' at the last. Is that true or are our expectations just too high?

It's only in the last 20 years that Spurs have been a consistent top 6 club. (Levy haters take note) Just look at one of our most successful periods under Keith Burkinshaw in his first season we finished 22nd then in subsequent seasons it was 11, 14, 10, 4, 4, and finally 7th. That's FOUR seasons before we got to 4th. He would not have lasted more than 2 seasons under the current ownership. Martin Jol began the transformation in 2004 and since then with some exceptions we have been top 6.

Fans have quickly accepted top 6 as the norm and almost a right but it's clearly not, our history tells a different story. We were famous first and foremost as a cup side. Under Venables in season 90/91 we won the FA Cup making us the first club to win 8 FA Cups. We have of course long since lost that record. The first English club to win a European Trophy. Spurs were the cup winning team. We've lost that as well now. There are lots of reasons for our lack of recent cup success but that's for another thread, but one of the reasons is our pursuit of league position. There is money at stake on league position, big money, so it becomes more important.

So why am I talking about Fan Power? Our expectations have been raised, many of our younger fans have never known a Tottenham other than a top 6 club and of course, not a cup winning side. The irony is that fans were happy when we were winning cups and didn't worry that much about league position. Now we are getting messages of discontent with Ange after a flying start. He created a rod for his own back after those first 10 games. I think most fans are saying he needs more time and another season but of course there are always those that call for his head after a few losses. BUT! he probably will only get another season to prove himself because by mid season the fans will be screaming for his head if the results are not right. Burkinshaw would have been sacked long before his success, Fergusson at Man U. would have been sent back to Scotland with a mid table United looking for a new man. A lot of this is pressure from fans, owners, a lot of whom thrive on being loved, are sensitive to fan displeasure, they want to feel the love.

What is clear to me is that continuity in management is a vital factor in a teams success. Every time you change a manager half your squad becomes redundant so changes are needed. This becomes a never ending cycle and we are experiencing that at Spurs. Surely us fans have to become more patient and allow more time for success to be built.

I have always seen the fans job as supporting the team and even if a player falls short, until he leaves he is our player and should get our support. Do we question too much? Well you get the gist I have gone on too long already. Over to you.

To often fans are spoiled and toxic meaning managers don't get enough time.

To be fair, your team could also go down the ****ter in that time span too but no one ever gives managers a couple of years when things go downhill even when managers have proven there worth.

I haven't been watching much football recently so can't say whether spurs have been really playing that awful but earlier in the season the football was looking fantastic.

 

[Dier Hard]

There’s likely a correlation in expectation and cost, just like anything in the world.

To put an example, if say for instance Gordon Ramsay sold a new gourmet burger at his restaurant and charged £80 for it, yet when served it was essentially a Tesco frozen patty burger, would you complain and demand far better?

Thus, as a football fan of a club paying the highest prices in world football, would you not expect your football team to then deliver to a degree to those standards?

If anything, I think Spurs fans on a whole are actually extremely supportive considering how much we’re exploited. We fill out the stadium week in, week out, fill out our away allocation week in, week out and we don’t even demand the club wins the Premier League or Champions League each season despite the fact we pay the prices of a team that should. But we do expect to at least be entertained, how often have fans been entertained over the last 5 or so years?

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

If anything, I think Spurs fans on a whole are actually extremely supportive considering how much we’re exploited. We fill out the stadium week in, week out, fill out our away allocation week in, week out and we don’t even demand the club wins the Premier League or Champions League each season despite the fact we pay the prices of a team that should. But we do expect to at least be entertained, how often have fans been entertained over the last 5 or so years?

 

[Spurf]

There’s likely a correlation in expectation and cost, just like anything in the world.

To put an example, if say for instance Gordon Ramsay sold a new gourmet burger at his restaurant and charged £80 for it, yet when served it was essentially a Tesco frozen patty burger, would you complain and demand far better?

Thus, as a football fan of a club paying the highest prices in world football, would you not expect your football team to then deliver to a degree to those standards?

If anything, I think Spurs fans on a whole are actually extremely supportive considering how much we’re exploited. We fill out the stadium week in, week out, fill out our away allocation week in, week out and we don’t even demand the club wins the Premier League or Champions League each season despite the fact we pay the prices of a team that should. But we do expect to at least be entertained, how often have fans been entertained over the last 5 or so years?

To be honest I wouldn't pay £80 for a burger in the first place. I stopped going to games when I moved too far away for it to be sensible. I doubt I would be going as often as I used to even if I still lived locally. I agree the prices are way too high but that is our wonderful market forces and the stadium is full. I see why you make that argument but the trouble is supporting a football club is not the same as buying a burger or a car or anything else. As you have said yourself it's in your blood. We don't go down the road to support Arsenal because it's cheaper then going to Spurs. The Premier League holds fans who go to football over a barrel. It sells the 'product' all over the world so fans are less important to them. For them it is a product for us it's a part of our way of life. I don't think we will get anywhere trying to equate prices with the quality of the football because there always enough punters to fill the stadium. The only way in the UK is government intervention, and I don't know why they don't because it would be a vote winner. What am I saying! They won't because no doubt the billionaires who own the clubs contribute to the political parties.

 

[Spurf]

The point I am arguing is about how fans behave and their effect on the team they support. While you may feel that because you pay Rolls Royce prices you expect a limo, if you take that view and translate it into descent towards your club you will have a detrimental effect on the team. It's about acting in your own self interest. Your argument should surely be against the owners who fix the ticket prices not the team.

 

[Dier Hard]

To be honest I wouldn't pay £80 for a burger in the first place. I stopped going to games when I moved too far away for it to be sensible. I doubt I would be going as often as I used to even if I still lived locally. I agree the prices are way too high but that is our wonderful market forces and the stadium is full. I see why you make that argument but the trouble is supporting a football club is not the same as buying a burger or a car or anything else. As you have said yourself it's in your blood. We don't go down the road to support Arsenal because it's cheaper then going to Spurs. The Premier League holds fans who go to football over a barrel. It sells the 'product' all over the world so fans are less important to them. For them it is a product for us it's a part of our way of life. I don't think we will get anywhere trying to equate prices with the quality of the football because there always enough punters to fill the stadium. The only way in the UK is government intervention, and I don't know why they don't because it would be a vote winner. What am I saying! They won't because no doubt the billionaires who own the clubs contribute to the political parties.

The market doesn’t force it, Levy and the board do and they do that because they know they can exploit the loyalty of die hard fans who still wish to go and watch their team despite it costing far too much and causing heavy dents in their finances.

Loyalty should never be financially exploited and when it is, it will cause disgruntlement, higher demands and less patience. Fans should not be in a situation where it should be a case “shut up and take it” just because we’re a supporter of a club, we do our supporting by still maintaining that support despite being financially ripped off.

You only have to look at Germany to see what affordable pricing does for fan enjoyment; atmospheres are always fantastic as the working class can still afford to go and I bet many have far more patience and understanding during difficult sporting times than those who are being ripped off at Tottenham and other clubs charging ridiculous amounts. Leverkusen fans are witnessing something potentially historic and if I’m not wrong, their highest season ticket is around €440… that’s almost 3x less than I pay at Tottenham and I have one of the cheapest STs at the club.

 

[Spurf]

The market doesn’t force it, Levy and the board do and they do that because they know they can exploit the loyalty of die hard fans who still wish to go and watch their team despite it costing far too much and causing heavy dents in their finances.

Loyalty should never be financially exploited and when it is, it will cause disgruntlement, higher demands and less patience. Fans should not be in a situation where it should be a case “shut up and take it” just because we’re a supporter of a club, we do our supporting by still maintaining that support despite being financially ripped off.

You only have to look at Germany to see what affordable pricing does for fan enjoyment; atmospheres are always fantastic as the working class can still afford to go and I bet many have far more patience and understanding during difficult sporting times than those who are being ripped off at Tottenham and other clubs charging ridiculous amounts. Leverkusen fans are witnessing something potentially historic and if I’m not wrong, their highest season ticket is around €440… that’s almost 3x less than I pay at Tottenham and I have one of the cheapest STs at the club.

Levy and the board act according to the market. If the stadium starts to empty the prices will fall, as long as they fill the stadium the prices will remain. I don't agree with that I am on your side. Germany has it right. BUT it's counter productive to take it out on the team.

 

[Dier Hard]

The point I am arguing is about how fans behave and their effect on the team they support. While you may feel that because you pay Rolls Royce prices you expect a limo, if you take that view and translate it into descent towards your club you will have a detrimental effect on the team. It's about acting in your own self interest. Your argument should surely be against the owners who fix the ticket prices not the team.

Go to a current Spurs game, Spurf and tell me fans aren’t supportive of the team. There’s always fans cheering the team on, creating songs for individual players and also the manager(s). But then when the team still don’t even respond to that support, start churning out boring and tepid football, often concede, fans then find it hard to stay motivated. My ST seat would’ve cost £78 last weekend to watch us vs Arsenal, the atmosphere was electric before the game and fans were chanting even after going 1-0 down but then when it’s 3-0 before half time, how are you meant to stay positive and supportive of that?

 

[Spurf]

Go to a current Spurs game, Spurf and tell me fans aren’t supportive of the team. There’s always fans cheering the team on, creating songs for individual players and also the manager(s). But then when the team still don’t even respond to that support, start churning out boring and tepid football, often concede, fans then find it hard to stay motivated. My ST seat would’ve cost £78 last weekend to watch us vs Arsenal, the atmosphere was electric before the game and fans were chanting even after going 1-0 down but then when it’s 3-0 before half time, how are you meant to stay positive and supportive of that?

I agree DH. I said in my opener that fans were with the project and with Ange but the rumblings have started. Nuno was soon out because of the football he produced that clearly produced a negative response in the fans. That scared Levy and Nuno was out. Right now I think we have to be patient and not blow up because of the terrible result against Arsenal or Chelsea or Wolves and so on. If we want this club to progress we have to recognise what we have stick with it and give it time.

 

[Spurf]

Because we are in Premier League age, which is quite different to the first division Levy does not have patience, ho does not play the long game and if the fans do the same it's unlikely we will ever challenge for the league or win cups. The Premier League was formed for one reason and one reason only. To monetise football.
We as fans need to remember what we are about and stop responding to the money men.

 

[Spurf]

Put it another way. We should have given Jol more time we should have given Redknapp more time we should have given Pochettino more time. Al these managers given time and support from Levy with players and fans with patience and we might have achieved something by now.

 

[Dier Hard]

I agree DH. I said in my opener that fans were with the project and with Ange but the rumblings have started. Nuno was soon out because of the football he produced that clearly produced a negative response in the fans. That scared Levy and Nuno was out. Right now I think we have to be patient and not blow up because of the terrible result against Arsenal or Chelsea or Wolves and so on. If we want this club to progress we have to recognise what we have stick with it and give it time.

Nuno is a bit different to Ange as no one wanted the guy in the first place, I mean we scraped the barrel and some with him that summer. He was also only given a two year deal which implied the club themselves didn’t even see it as an ambitious appointment.

I think the “so on” point in your post is exactly why people are becoming disgruntled with the current team and manager, on the one hand the manager constantly talks about wanting to be successful and in a title race next season, on the other we’re being battered by local rivals, Newcastle and even Fulham, whilst some of our wins feel very Conte-esque in that we’ve scraped them. It’s been boring football for 6 months with the odd good result/ performance and the manager’s also shown little ability to tactically tweak things or coach weaknesses, often even refusing to accept there’s weaknesses.

It’s still year one of course and I don’t think anyone has called for his head as far as I can see but we all know how football, and especially Levy operates, the harsh reality is that if by around October/ November we haven’t seen considerable improvements from where we’re at, he’ll be out of a job and I highly doubt the fans will even be responsible for it. Levy will just swing the axe, especially if he feels there’s danger of not finishing in European spots and that’s mainly all he cares for due to financial reasons.

 

[PowerSpurs]

It amazes me that German football is held up as some ideal when Bayern Munich win the League nearly every season.
Our team is performing very slightly better than you would expect given our financial resources. Our resources are getting bigger so our team will get stronger. Money has always been the only thing that really matters in professional football. The only difference now is that the top Leagues are designed to maximise income to make sure that their clubs don't lose out to smaller leagues with one or two big clubs.
The odd thing is that very few owners actually benefit from the enormous cash flow. Most owners don't take a dividend...and very few sell at a profit.

 

[Spurf]

Ange has clearly said that theses sort of results will happen as he changes the culture of the club. He has also explained at some length that he is NOT going to change his style because that's why he is here. He has produced success in his career and he is going to follow what has worked for him. That makes sense to me. What does not make sense is reacting to each loss by throwing all your experience out of the window. He is there because of who he is and what he has done. If you want to win something you have to be patient and give the man and team time to develop.

 

[Dier Hard]

And to add on to my final bit of my post, the sheer fact Levy often sacks managers due to the financial implications, it essentially goes full circle and that’s that money is what causes the issues.

If Levy doesn’t get his CL or EL revenue, he’ll sack you. If Spurs fans pay stupid prices for **** football, we’ll moan.

 

[Spurf]

It amazes me that German football is held up as some ideal when Bayern Munich win the League nearly every season.
Our team is performing very slightly better than you would expect given our financial resources. Our resources are getting bigger so our team will get stronger. Money has always been the only thing that really matters in professional football. The only difference now is that the top Leagues are designed to maximise income to make sure that their clubs don't lose out to smaller leagues with one or two big clubs.
The odd thing is that very few owners actually benefit from the enormous cash flow. Most owners don't take a dividend...and very few sell at a profit.

I don't think it's the football in Germany that people applaud it's the way fans are treated with respect and making sure the games are affordable to more people.

 

[Spurf]

And to add on to my final bit of my post, the sheer fact Levy often sacks managers due to the financial implications, it essentially goes full circle and that’s that money is what causes the issues.

If Levy doesn’t get his CL or EL revenue, he’ll sack you. If Spurs fans pay stupid prices for **** football, we’ll moan.

I agree.

 

[Dier Hard]

Ange has clearly said that theses sort of results will happen as he changes the culture of the club. He has also explained at some length that he is NOT going to change his style because that's why he is here. He has produced success in his career and he is going to follow what has worked for him. That makes sense to me. What does not make sense is reacting to each loss by throwing all your experience out of the window. He is there because of who he is and what he has done. If you want to win something you have to be patient and give the man and team time to develop.

The problem is that his style of football isn’t being shown on the pitch. He says he brings exciting and attacking football, where’s that been for the last 6 months? Who’s been excited watching Spurs?

How can you even be exciting and attacking when you’re getting battered 3-0 by Fulham, 4-0 by Newcastle and 2-0 to the worst Chelsea team in 20 years.

He’s been talking a big game but producing a very small one for a while now.

 

[Spurf]

The problem is that his style of football isn’t being shown on the pitch. He says he brings exciting and attacking football, where’s that been for the last 6 months? Who’s been excited watching Spurs?

How can you even be exciting and attacking when you’re getting battered 3-0 by Fulham, 4-0 by Newcastle and 2-0 to the worst Chelsea team in 20 years.

He’s been talking a big game but producing a very small one for a while now.

As he predicted. I enjoyed the Villa game.