Off Topic Society needs a reset

[The Norton Cat]

I've read a lot of teacher debates, your wife is not alone here. Its a very sad state of affairs. God bless her and all teachers trying to educate our young.

Thanks mate. It's worrying for everyone really. Too many good teachers want to leave the profession.

As a society we just don't value teachers enough anymore. It's the same with NHS workers, the Police, the Fire Service, and basically anyone who helps make our society function. All need to be valued more.

 

[Smug in Boots]

Schools do try to teach these things. The problem is that successive governments (I don't want to start a political thing here but it's been Labour and Conservative govts) expect schools to pick up all of the slack in society and that's not their purpose. They are there to give an academic education. It is the responsibility of the parents to give a moral education. Children are now starting school more and more regularly that are not toilet trained, unable to use a knife and fork, unable to dress themselves properly. There's been a government suggestion recently that schools should have kids clean their teeth when they arrive, because their parents aren't doing it at home. Teachers are overworked as it is, often doing 15-16hr days. I could go in to more detail but I'd be here forever. The only thing they aren't allowed to do is discipline poor behaviour. So parents now complain if their child gets into trouble at school. Rather than demanding an explanation from the child, they go in to the school to defend them. They want schools to literally parent their kids but woe betide any school that tells their child that their behaviour isn't acceptable.

If people don't respect schools, schools can't make a difference to society's morals. It has to be done through the channels that people do listen to. Sadly that is the media, including social media and bloody 'influencers'. There is this theme in society currently that we must question authority and the establishment. That's why we've had so many Covid deniers and why belief in pseudo-science is on the rise. Its more attractive to believe the lone wolf who claims to know the secrets that the establishment are hiding from you than it is to believe the establishment. The thing is, the establishment is in actual fact hundreds or thousands of people carrying out research and experiments and repeatedly reaching the same conclusion. They aren't hiding anything.

What we need is to change the zeitgeist. We have to create a society that has more respect for each other. That doesn't mean going on a protest and chucking soup at a painting or waving a rainbow flag but then going back to being a twat the rest of the time, it means proper respect for people and things around you as a way of being. The only way that can be achieved is by a huge shift in the messages people are given through the channels that they are most engaged with.

Very good honest post and sadly true in my opinion.

Alienating children, and waging war on them, won't work ...

... we need more do-gooders, not less. Teachers, educators, youth club volunteers, post crime counsellors, etc.

I've often found that those demanding all criminals are locked up are sly tax dodgers, 'one for the road' types or those who think having 'a friend' get them around tricky planning permission issues. They simply don't see them as crimes and the more money they have, the bigger the crimes and the least conscience about it. They're given the all clear by those like recent Prime Ministers who openly cheat, make ridiculous excuses and laugh at those who question them.

That's OK, no one is being beaten up, except it filters down to young people who grow up thinking 'if it's good enough for the goose'.

They're not able to get into financial fraud, insider trading or whatever so they get involved with anything they can ...

... that's why they shoplift, burgle, deal drugs, etc, it's in their skill set.

There's no way out, Thatcher taught a generation that greed is good and it's endemic now.

 

[Blond Bombshell]

Very good honest post and sadly true in my opinion.

Alienating children, and waging war on them, won't work ...

... we need more do-gooders, not less. Teachers, educators, youth club volunteers, post crime counsellors, etc.

I've often found that those demanding all criminals are locked up are sly tax dodgers, 'one for the road' types or those who think having 'a friend' get them around tricky planning permission issues. They simply don't see them as crimes and the more money they have, the bigger the crimes and the least conscience about it. They're given the all clear by those like recent Prime Ministers who openly cheat, make ridiculous excuses and laugh at those who question them.

That's OK, no one is being beaten up, except that it filters down to young people who grow up thinking 'if it's good enough for the goose'.

They're not able to get into financial fraud, insider trading or whatever so they get involved with anything they can ...

... that's why they shoplift, burgle, deal drugs, etc, it's in their skill set.

There's no way out, Thatcher taught a generation that greed is good and it's endemic now.

Another cracking post marra and agree with you on how the problems have manifested themselves in our society... however, let's try our best to keep politics out of this debate

 

[The Norton Cat]

Very good honest post and sadly true in my opinion.

Alienating children, and waging war on them, won't work ...

... we need more do-gooders, not less. Teachers, educators, youth club volunteers, post crime counsellors, etc.

I've often found that those demanding all criminals are locked up are sly tax dodgers, 'one for the road' types or those who think having 'a friend' get them around tricky planning permission issues. They simply don't see them as crimes and the more money they have, the bigger the crimes and the least conscience about it. They're given the all clear by those like recent Prime Ministers who openly cheat, make ridiculous excuses and laugh at those who question them.

That's OK, no one is being beaten up, except it filters down to young people who grow up thinking 'if it's good enough for the goose'.

They're not able to get into financial fraud, insider trading or whatever so they get involved with anything they can ...

... that's why they shoplift, burgle, deal drugs, etc, it's in their skill set.

There's no way out, Thatcher taught a generation that greed is good and it's endemic now.

Yep, I think that's very true. If you give people the idea that bad behaviour gets you places, that's what they're going to do.

 

[Gordon Armstrong]

Schools do try to teach these things. The problem is that successive governments (I don't want to start a political thing here but it's been Labour and Conservative govts) expect schools to pick up all of the slack in society and that's not their purpose. They are there to give an academic education. It is the responsibility of the parents to give a moral education. Children are now starting school more and more regularly that are not toilet trained, unable to use a knife and fork, unable to dress themselves properly. There's been a government suggestion recently that schools should have kids clean their teeth when they arrive, because their parents aren't doing it at home. Teachers are overworked as it is, often doing 15-16hr days. I could go in to more detail but I'd be here forever. The only thing they aren't allowed to do is discipline poor behaviour. So parents now complain if their child gets into trouble at school. Rather than demanding an explanation from the child, they go in to the school to defend them. They want schools to literally parent their kids but woe betide any school that tells their child that their behaviour isn't acceptable.

If people don't respect schools, schools can't make a difference to society's morals. It has to be done through the channels that people do listen to. Sadly that is the media, including social media and bloody 'influencers'. There is this theme in society currently that we must question authority and the establishment. That's why we've had so many Covid deniers and why belief in pseudo-science is on the rise. Its more attractive to believe the lone wolf who claims to know the secrets that the establishment are hiding from you than it is to believe the establishment. The thing is, the establishment is in actual fact hundreds or thousands of people carrying out research and experiments and repeatedly reaching the same conclusion. They aren't hiding anything.

What we need is to change the zeitgeist. We have to create a society that has more respect for each other. That doesn't mean going on a protest and chucking soup at a painting or waving a rainbow flag but then going back to being a twat the rest of the time, it means proper respect for people and things around you as a way of being. The only way that can be achieved is by a huge shift in the messages people are given through the channels that they are most engaged with.

That's a very good analysis, Norton, that I totally agree with . . . . teachers are expected to teach children about ethics, moral behaviours and respect (by some, irresponsible, parents) and there's nothing that we can do about it, but they're not allowed to discipline those that cause trouble or do things that should be unacceptable 'cos there'd be 'hell on' and the pressure that teachers are under (working many more hours than contracted to or they are paid for) has been unbearable for quite a few, so it seems.
As Mike & The Mechanics said "every generation blames the one before" which is pretty accurate, but it's those irresponsible parents that are to blame . . . . not the teachers, who get the blame.
Life in general changes, but at the moment and for quite a while 'progress' definitely hasn't made society better
We probably all know at least one who uses his/her diagnosis to hide behind so that he/she can get away with abusing and/or taking the mickey out of others

p.s. I haven't heard the phrase 'woe betide' for a long time

 

[Smug in Boots]

Yep, I think that's very true. If you give people the idea that bad behaviour gets you places, that's what they're going to do.

I know this sounds 'fuddy duddy' but I believe it's true.

We say we want young people to show respect, not bully anyone and realise that hard work is almost only the way to succeed.

So, what do we do, produce endless TV shows like BGT, Love Island, Goggle box, etc. Then there's one show after another with 'celebrities' no one has heard of doing things they're not very good at. Not only is the content trashy it's presented by people who also have very limited talent except 'being good at what they do'. And they're nothing but popularity contests where the inept have fun poked at them and are judged the worst. "We have a panel of judges but you, at home, can also judge the contestants and vote them a failure."

So we're actually teaching our children to laugh at people who try but fail and judge everyone on the limited amount they know about them. We're also showing them that getting your tits out, being 'outrageous' and doing things to shock is how girls get on.

It's the complete opposite of everything we claim to want from people, especially children.

 

[Disco down under]

I know this sounds 'fuddy duddy' but I believe it's true.

We say we want young people to show respect, not bully anyone and realise that hard work is almost only the way to succeed.

So, what do we do, produce endless TV shows like BGT, Love Island, Goggle box, etc. Then there's one show after another with 'celebrities' no one has heard of doing things they're not very good at. Not only is the content trashy it's presented by people who also have very limited talent except 'being good at what they do'. And they're nothing but popularity contests where the inept have fun poked at them and are judged the worst. "We have a panel of judges but you, at home, can also judge the contestants and vote them a failure."

So we're actually teaching our children to laugh at people who try but fail and judge everyone on the limited amount they know about them. We're also showing them that getting your tits out, being 'outrageous' and doing things to shock is how girls get on.

It's the complete opposite of everything we claim to want from people, especially children.

Culture and art has never been in quite so diminished a position in the world. Commerce has completely replaced it. It migh sound pretentious and obnoxious but we're in an incredibly harmful media landscape where we aren't really very interested in exploring the human condition. We just want to sell consumable tat.

Only two hundred years ago we had the likes of Blake, the Shelleys and Coleridge exploring things far greater than themselves.

Now we've got Taylor Swift singing absolute guff and Dwayne "the Rock" Johnson pulling the same dumb face over and over.

It's grim. But it sells really well. So that's just ****ing tickety boo.

 

[The Norton Cat]

I know this sounds 'fuddy duddy' but I believe it's true.

We say we want young people to show respect, not bully anyone and realise that hard work is almost only the way to succeed.

So, what do we do, produce endless TV shows like BGT, Love Island, Goggle box, etc. Then there's one show after another with 'celebrities' no one has heard of doing things they're not very good at. Not only is the content trashy it's presented by people who also have very limited talent except 'being good at what they do'. And they're nothing but popularity contests where the inept have fun poked at them and are judged the worst. "We have a panel of judges but you, at home, can also judge the contestants and vote them a failure."

So we're actually teaching our children to laugh at people who try but fail and judge everyone on the limited amount they know about them. We're also showing them that getting your tits out, being 'outrageous' and doing things to shock is how girls get on.

It's the complete opposite of everything we claim to want from people, especially children.

Completely agree. It's these kind of things that influence the way people see life. Another one is The Apprentice. It just tells people that being an arsehole is the way to get ahead in business. I don't work in that kind of thing myself but an aspect of my work brings me into contact with 'business people'. There's a group, slightly younger than me, that think being rude and difficult is the way to go on. Unfortunately for them, no matter how difficult they are, I can't change the findings.

 

[The Norton Cat]

Culture and art has never been in quite so diminished a position in the world. Commerce has completely replaced it. It migh sound pretentious and obnoxious but we're in an incredibly harmful media landscape where we aren't really very interested in exploring the human condition. We just want to sell consumable tat.

Only two hundred years ago we had the likes of Blake, the Shelleys and Coleridge exploring things far greater than themselves.

Now we've got Taylor Swift singing absolute guff and Dwayne "the Rock" Johnson pulling the same dumb face over and over.

It's grim. But it sells really well. So that's just ****ing tickety boo.

Reminds of the (possibly apocryphal) radio link "sorry we can't play Fairytale of New York because its too offensive so here's Cardi B rapping about her fanny".

Anything with any artistic merit is valueless if it could lose someone money but our moral objections can easily be suspended if there is money to be made.

 

[Smug in Boots]

Culture and art has never been in quite so diminished a position in the world. Commerce has completely replaced it. It migh sound pretentious and obnoxious but we're in an incredibly harmful media landscape where we aren't really very interested in exploring the human condition. We just want to sell consumable tat.

Only two hundred years ago we had the likes of Blake, the Shelleys and Coleridge exploring things far greater than themselves.

Now we've got Taylor Swift singing absolute guff and Dwayne "the Rock" Johnson pulling the same dumb face over and over.

It's grim. But it sells really well. So that's just ****ing tickety boo.

Personally I want to be entertained, informed and surprised by people more talented and more intelligent than me.

When I look at the highest paid people on TV they're usually only any good at 'being themselves' and routinely professional.

Lineker, Winkleman, Ant & Dec, etc, are all paid a fortune for talking. Could I make as many stupid comments, at the side of the stage, as Ant & Dec, could I pretend to be a 15 year old with an appropriate sense of humour, could I make funny faces while the other one speaks. They're doing the same routine they've done for decades and will never stop, they have nothing else to offer.

Like many other people I record MOTD and watch the football only, I don't need inane wisecracks from Lineker or an explanation of how a goal was scored by two grinning ex-pros who match the host with the level of humour.

"You wouldn't have shot from there" ... "No and you wouldn't have passed it to me."

 

[Gordon Armstrong]

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[Blond Bombshell]

Completely agree. It's these kind of things that influence the way people see life. Another one is The Apprentice. It just tells people that being an arsehole is the way to get ahead in business. I don't work in that kind of thing myself but an aspect of my work brings me into contact with 'business people'. There's a group, slightly younger than me, that think being rude and difficult is the way to go on. Unfortunately for them, no matter how difficult they are, I can't change the findings.

You beat me to it, I was just about to reply to Smug re the Apprentice... it's really just a show encouraging voyeurism, laughing at people's inadequacies.

 

[King Kareoke]

That reminds me of this lovely song

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Not derailing the thread but I always though that was such a simple but great song!!

 

[TopCat.]

Schools do try to teach these things. The problem is that successive governments (I don't want to start a political thing here but it's been Labour and Conservative govts) expect schools to pick up all of the slack in society and that's not their purpose. They are there to give an academic education. It is the responsibility of the parents to give a moral education. Children are now starting school more and more regularly that are not toilet trained, unable to use a knife and fork, unable to dress themselves properly. There's been a government suggestion recently that schools should have kids clean their teeth when they arrive, because their parents aren't doing it at home. Teachers are overworked as it is, often doing 15-16hr days. I could go in to more detail but I'd be here forever. The only thing they aren't allowed to do is discipline poor behaviour. So parents now complain if their child gets into trouble at school. Rather than demanding an explanation from the child, they go in to the school to defend them. They want schools to literally parent their kids but woe betide any school that tells their child that their behaviour isn't acceptable.

If people don't respect schools, schools can't make a difference to society's morals. It has to be done through the channels that people do listen to. Sadly that is the media, including social media and bloody 'influencers'. There is this theme in society currently that we must question authority and the establishment. That's why we've had so many Covid deniers and why belief in pseudo-science is on the rise. Its more attractive to believe the lone wolf who claims to know the secrets that the establishment are hiding from you than it is to believe the establishment. The thing is, the establishment is in actual fact hundreds or thousands of people carrying out research and experiments and repeatedly reaching the same conclusion. They aren't hiding anything.

What we need is to change the zeitgeist. We have to create a society that has more respect for each other. That doesn't mean going on a protest and chucking soup at a painting or waving a rainbow flag but then going back to being a twat the rest of the time, it means proper respect for people and things around you as a way of being. The only way that can be achieved is by a huge shift in the messages people are given through the channels that they are most engaged with.

Excellent post

 

[alcoauth]

I think the real problem is looking to government to sort all of these things out when it looks to me that they benefit in many ways for this gradual collapse in societal standards. Top down is idealist, bottom up is more practical but my suspicion is that people would be suppressed for trying to make changes, both by government and by polarised citizens.

 

[alcoauth]

Culture and art has never been in quite so diminished a position in the world. Commerce has completely replaced it. It migh sound pretentious and obnoxious but we're in an incredibly harmful media landscape where we aren't really very interested in exploring the human condition. We just want to sell consumable tat.

Only two hundred years ago we had the likes of Blake, the Shelleys and Coleridge exploring things far greater than themselves.

Now we've got Taylor Swift singing absolute guff and Dwayne "the Rock" Johnson pulling the same dumb face over and over.

It's grim. But it sells really well. So that's just ****ing tickety boo.

It’s the active dumbing down of society. And they benefit from it, In all ways imaginable, so why would we think they’d be interested in reversing course?

Teach your kids about art and culture, that will give them an advantage over the swathes of blancmange in the next generation, sad way to think but we can’t pull them up and ourselves up. Bottom up or remain slaves.

 

[Smug in Boots]

It’s the active dumbing down of society. And they benefit from it, In all ways imaginable, so why would we think they’d be interested in reversing course?

Teach your kids about art and culture, that will give them an advantage over the swathes of blancmange in the next generation, sad way to think but we can’t pull them up and ourselves up. Bottom up or remain slaves.

Shows like BGT are sheer genius ...


... 'I know, instead of paying talented performers, let's get the public to entertain themselves and make them pay for it' ...

... then they have 'auditions' for talentless people some of whom clearly have mental health issues.

Little has changed since the Victorians would go to asylums to watch the lunatics and 'get them riled up' by whooping and screaming.

 

[alcoauth]

Shows like BGT are sheer genius ...


... 'I know, instead of paying talented performers, let's get the public to entertain themselves and make them pay for it' ...

... then they have 'auditions' for talentless people some of whom clearly have mental health issues.

Little has changed since the Victorians would go to asylums to watch the lunatics and 'get them riled up' by whooping and screaming.

I don’t watch telly so had to google BGT to see what it was, typical pig feed for the masses. The amount of shows about destitute, poverty stricken and clearly mentally ill people on British TV let’s you know the people who make these shows and fund them, view the people on those shows and the consumers of them as an outgroup. They’re essentially laughing at us and getting us to laugh at ourselves. We can’t even resist because half the population would turn on itself. The whole thing is ****ed.

 

[FellTop]

Schools do try to teach these things. The problem is that successive governments (I don't want to start a political thing here but it's been Labour and Conservative govts) expect schools to pick up all of the slack in society and that's not their purpose. They are there to give an academic education. It is the responsibility of the parents to give a moral education. Children are now starting school more and more regularly that are not toilet trained, unable to use a knife and fork, unable to dress themselves properly. There's been a government suggestion recently that schools should have kids clean their teeth when they arrive, because their parents aren't doing it at home. Teachers are overworked as it is, often doing 15-16hr days. I could go in to more detail but I'd be here forever. The only thing they aren't allowed to do is discipline poor behaviour. So parents now complain if their child gets into trouble at school. Rather than demanding an explanation from the child, they go in to the school to defend them. They want schools to literally parent their kids but woe betide any school that tells their child that their behaviour isn't acceptable.

If people don't respect schools, schools can't make a difference to society's morals. It has to be done through the channels that people do listen to. Sadly that is the media, including social media and bloody 'influencers'. There is this theme in society currently that we must question authority and the establishment. That's why we've had so many Covid deniers and why belief in pseudo-science is on the rise. Its more attractive to believe the lone wolf who claims to know the secrets that the establishment are hiding from you than it is to believe the establishment. The thing is, the establishment is in actual fact hundreds or thousands of people carrying out research and experiments and repeatedly reaching the same conclusion. They aren't hiding anything.

What we need is to change the zeitgeist. We have to create a society that has more respect for each other. That doesn't mean going on a protest and chucking soup at a painting or waving a rainbow flag but then going back to being a twat the rest of the time, it means proper respect for people and things around you as a way of being. The only way that can be achieved is by a huge shift in the messages people are given through the channels that they are most engaged with.

Post of the month

Now what about them ancient civiliastions

 

[FellTop]

Not me, marra. Its my wife that's the teacher. We're in our 40s now so she's been a teacher 20 odd years. It's hard seeing her go from a job she was so passionate about to one she's desperate to leave. She still loves teaching the kids, it's all the other pressures.

My wife is a teacher too mate. I feel like flattening some of the parents to be honest. She quit for a while but has gone back because she thinks the kids deserve more. She is a glutton for punishment. Not all parents are bad of course, but dear oh dear some are utterly embarassing. My wife warned me about one who was bringing her kid to my little soccer school. Week 2 she said she was leaving him for the hour as she would be in the gym. He is 5. I said no you arent. If you are not staying your kid cant stay. She went barmy. Next week Dad comes and wants to have it out with me. I simply said I am not a babysitter, I am a coach, and he was wasting his time whining at me. He stood fuming and watched, but came back next few weeks. Now both parents come along, and enjoy watching and Dad has even dbs and safeguarding so he can help out. Difference in school is you cant easily play the take your kid home card and the system doesnt allow effective punishment. I would last 6 weeks as a teacher, max.