Off Topic Politics Thread

[Saintjoey]

Building wells in Gaza only results in more water from the aquifer that is contaminated by seawater. Gaza requires water to be imported (which Israel limits to an amount a small fraction of the needs of Gaza), or desalination, which is impossible in large enough quantities under the blockade. Further, Israel routinely attacks or cuts off the electricity generation capacity for Gaza, which in turn makes desalination impossible.

And also, you keep shrugging off the actions of the Israeli government in the West Bank as if that does not factor into how people in Gaza respond. Sure, the Israeli government routinely brutalizes residents of the West Bank, but why should people in Gaza notice that? Why can't they just pretend that is some wholly separate issue that has nothing to do with Gaza, and not a deliberate attempt by the Israeli government to make the occupied territories non-viable as a future state?

Why do you think Gaza requires water to be imported?!

Incredible how Hamas have electricity and clean water, isn’t it? They could have easily invested in infrastructure to obtain clean water, they’ve had 20 years and obscene amounts of aid money that has been provided for precisely this purpose. The EU themselves have helped in specific projects, building water pipes for this reason but Hamas, themselves, have shown videos of them digging these exact same pipes up to use for weapons. Do you expect Israel to subsidise their water while their government simply steal it and quite literally weaponise it?

I’m not shrugging the West Bank off, a more centrist government is what’s needed. Israelis have sympathy for those people, too. Focussing solely on this is reductive and plays no part in Hamas’ stated aims.

It’s also important to consider that these are people that have been displaced from their original homes in Iraq, Libya, Iran, Jordan where hundreds of thousands of Jews have been effectively ethnically cleansed, so it’s a vicious circle that needs to be part of any two state solution.

 

[Schad]

Why do you think Gaza requires water to be imported?!

Because the aquifer that supplies water to Gaza is insufficient in any instance, and has salt water from the Mediterranean leeching into it. Please see the Amnesty International report that I posted on the previous page:

In Gaza, some 90-95 per cent of the water supply is contaminated and unfit for human consumption. Israel does not allow water to be transferred from the West Bank to Gaza, and Gaza’s only fresh water resource, the Coastal Aquifer, is insufficient for the needs of the population and is being increasingly depleted by over-extraction and contaminated by sewage and seawater infiltration.

Incredible how Hamas have electricity and clean water, isn’t it? They could have easily invested in infrastructure to obtain clean water, they’ve had 20 years and obscene amounts of aid money that has been provided for precisely this purpose. The EU themselves have helped in specific projects, building water pipes for this reason but Hamas, themselves, have shown videos of them digging these exact same pipes up to use for weapons. Do you expect Israel to subsidise their water while their government simply steal it and quite literally weaponise it?

They cannot easily invest in infrastructure. They are under a blockade. That blockade has resulted in Gaza having to turn to unsafe water sources for 15 years.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/12/gaza-undrinkable-water-slowly-poisoning-people

Human rights organisations have warned for years about the deteriorating water situation in the Gaza Strip.

At the 48th session of the UN Human Rights Council last Monday, the Global Institute for Water, Environment and Health and the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor said water in Gaza is “undrinkable” and “slowly poisoning” people.

“The long-term Israeli blockade has caused a serious deterioration of water security in Gaza, making 97% of the water contaminated,” a joint statement said. “The residents of the besieged enclave are forced to witness the slow poisoning of their children and loved ones.”

I’m not shrugging the West Bank off, a more centrist government is what’s needed. Israelis have sympathy for those people, too. Focussing solely on this is reductive and plays no part in Hamas’ stated aims.

Pointing out that the Israeli government have not been honest brokers for 20 years informs one's opinions on the options available to the people in Gaza. Bibi and the extreme right have held power for all but a few months of the last fifteen years. It's hard to argue that the majority of Israelis didn't choose this.

It’s also important to consider that these are people that have been displaced from their original homes in Iraq, Libya, Iran, Jordan where hundreds of thousands of Jews have been effectively ethnically cleansed, so it’s a vicious circle that needs to be part of any two state solution.

Yeah, I'm against ethnic cleansing as a general rule. But there isn't a two-state solution specifically because Israel has ethnically cleansed so much of the West Bank. There is no state to create, that has been effectively impossible for more than a decade now, and the government of Israel now talks openly about simply purging all Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza.

And again, it's not like Netanyahu has hidden his intentions. Here he is, crowing about the fact that he has resisted a two-state solution, and will annex the whole of the West Bank:

"A Palestinian state will endanger our existence and I withstood huge pressure over the past eight years, no prime minister has withstood such pressure. We must control our destiny," the premier said.

After boasting that he was responsible for U.S. President Donald Trump's declaration recognizing Israeli sovereignty over the Golan Heights, Netanyahu told the program "Meet the Press": "Will we move ahead to the next stage? Yes. I will extend sovereignty but I don't distinguish between the settlement blocs and the isolated ones, because each settlement is Israeli and I will not hand it over to Palestinian sovereignty."

"I will not divide Jerusalem, I will not evacuate any community and I will make sure we control the territory west of Jordan," Netanyahu told the show's host, Rina Matzliah.

 

[San Tejón]

This is Bernie Sanders’ opinion and remember that he is Jewish himself.

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[shoot_spiderman]

Israel's stated aim of 'Destroying Hamas' is perfectly understandable, but how do you go about the destruction of an amorphous entity? If Israeli soldiers were able to line up every current member of Hamas, and kill each one, then what? Will all remaining Palestinians immediately stop being aggressive towards Israel? Or will a different group of Palestinians arise, with a desire for retribution?

Unless and until some attempt is made to win the hearts and minds of the vast majority of Palestinians, any amount of artillery firing, building destruction and enforced removal of people will not bring about a lasting peace. A diplomatic solution is the only permanent way forwards. As Churchill said 'Meeting jaw to jaw is better than war'

^^^ This

Killing thousands of Palestinian civilians including children isn’t defending yourself and will be creating new extremists

Innocent civilians on both sides suffer for the extremism of Hamas and the current Israeli government

 

[Osvaldorama]

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[Osvaldorama]

Both sides have offered peace deals in negotiations. At no time have those deals been acceptable to both parties. The notion that Israel has been offering acceptable, actionable terms for a two-state solution and the Palestinians have rejected it is simply untrue.

I'm trying to find it, but there was an oral history of the negotiations that took place during the Obama era, and the comment was that neither side would leave Tzipi Livni (the long-time top Israeli negotiator) and her Palestinian counterpart alone in a room, because they were afraid that if they did so, they'd have an acceptable peace deal hammered out in a few hours. And the top political actors on both sides did not want that. Here's an article after peace talks collapsed where the US envoy blamed Netanyahu for the collapse of talks, because he was simply unwilling to compromise in the slightest:

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4516768,00.html

And again: Hamas took power because the Netanyahu government propped up Hamas as a means of undermining Fatah, and thus ensuring that there couldn't be a coherent Palestinian state. Members of the government have outright stated this.



Or it tells you that the consequences for committing genocide are such that they have merely killed tens of thousands of them, rather than millions, because the international community will turn a blind eye to the former but not the latter.

You are doing what you normally do Schad.

Form your opinion, get emotional and then look for ways to confirm your own biases, whilst simultaneously acting holier-than-thou.

Times where peace has been offered:
- Camp David accords (1978)
- Madrid conference (1991)
- Oslo accords (93 & 95)
- Camp David summit (2000)
- Taba Summit (2001)
- The road map for peace (2003)
- Annapolis conference (2007)
- Israeli peace proposal (2008)

The last of which included the formation of a Palestinian state.

Instead, Hamas chose to continue fighting a completely unwinnable war - and worse - target women and children deliberately. There is no world in which a nation as militarily strong as Israel lets that go. And nor should they.

Sadly I do agree with you about the external influences. Politicians globally can’t help but poor fuel on the fire instead of helping.

Also to your last point - the ONLY genocidal party here is Hamas. The Israeli government does not want genocide, nor do Palestinian civilians.

 

[Saintjoey]

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The stark contrast of the protests sums it up perfectly. These are people who despise the West despite the benefits they reap vs Jews who sing God Save the King after their own national anthem at their 'protests' and pray for the British Royal family and welfare of the nation every week on the Sabbath.

 

[Saintjoey]

Because the aquifer that supplies water to Gaza is insufficient in any instance, and has salt water from the Mediterranean leeching into it. Please see the Amnesty International report that I posted on the previous page:





They cannot easily invest in infrastructure. They are under a blockade. That blockade has resulted in Gaza having to turn to unsafe water sources for 15 years.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/12/gaza-undrinkable-water-slowly-poisoning-people the West Bank:

Hahaha using Al Jazeera as a source on something like this is like asking the Völkischer Beobachter for their views on Judaism

 

[StJabbo1]

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[It'sOnlyAGame]

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Wonder what Thumbwood's got to say about this. Probably nothing.

 

[StJabbo1]

Hahaha using Al Jazeera as a source on something like this is like asking the Völkischer Beobachter for their views on Judaism

A questionable source but the water situation in Gaza along with other Human Rights infringements have been highlighted by the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, B'Tselem, which is also condemning the settler aggression. NB this is an Israeli NGO, there are other activist groups.
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupi...alestinians in the,is only three times larger.
For more information re B'Tselem which is supported by many in Israel https://www.btselem.org/about_btselem

Pointing out the atrocities on both sides, hopefully leading to trials in The Hague, is a necessary function of the UN and other reputable bodies.
Jeremy Bowen writes: Five new realities after four weeks of Israel-Gaza war https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67306902
Some pertinent quotes.
"The conflict between Arabs and Jews for control of the land between the river Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea has lasted for more than 100 years. One lesson of its long and bloody history is that there will never be a military solution."

"As President Biden and many others have said, the only possible chance for avoiding more wars is to establish a Palestinian state alongside Israel. That will not be possible with the current leaders on either side. Extremists, both Israeli and Palestinian, would do all they could to scupper the idea, as they have done since the 1990s. Some of them believe they are following the will of God, which makes it impossible to persuade them to accept a secular compromise."

"But if this war does not deliver enough of a shock to break deeply-held prejudices and to make the idea of two states viable, nothing will. And without a mutually-acceptable way of ending the conflict, more generations of Palestinians and Israelis will be sentenced to more wars."

 

[It'sOnlyAGame]

I don't think men like my auntie's first husband (who is buried in a military cemetery in Normandy) sacrificed their lives so people people like Ian would be shut down for voicing controversial views. Quite the opposite, I think.

I don't know why you are suggesting that Thumbwood is being shutdown or shouldn't voice controversial views. My post included part of his post about the dead being ashamed, I used his own words against him. If I was shutting him down I would have expected you to approve anyway seeing as cancel culture was invented by the left to silence opinions they disagree with.

With regard to your very sad story about your Auntie's husband. We have one in our family too and I'm telling it not to trump your story but to illustrate why Remembrance Day is still relevant to many people in this country despite what Thumbwood would like to have us believe.
My mother had a brother who was sent off to the far east in World War 2. I don't know what his thoughts about the merits of sacrificing his life for the likes of Thumbwood to spout his bile because he was killed aged 19 and his body never recovered. His parents received a telegram to say their son was "lost in action" and that was all they heard. I know my mother would have been incensed to have read what Thumbwood posted. As am I.
I know there are people in this country still alive who will have similar tragic stories to tell about lost love ones. This remembrance means something to a large part of this country's population and it shouldn't be forgotten or changed to appease left wingers or the minority Muslim community.
Remembrance day has not "out served it's purpose", been highjacked by the "hawkish right-wing" or celebrating "British military prowess". I don't know of many "celebrations" that include a minutes silence or the laying of wreaths. Thumbwood has already made comments about all Israeli's being viable targets and seems to be totally oblivious to the sensitivities of other people or is being deliberately callous. Either way, I am not trying shut him down but after re-reading his post I've come to the conclusion that he is not a ****ing nutter as I said in my reply, he's worse.

PS I can't believe there are others on this board that actually liked his post.

 

[StJabbo1]

I would use a stronger word than twat myself.

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I wonder what Os and IOAG have said about this vile creature and her hate politics, almost trumpian.

 

[greensaint]

I wonder what Os and IOAG have said about this vile creature and her hate politics, almost trumpian.

She started her open bid for next leader some time ago, her "appeal" is only to self serving bigots, so a large element of the conservative membership. Rishi losing the election would suit her fine.

Even her colleagues are embarrassed by her but don't call her out as they know she'll be giving out jobs and gongs soon.

My (slight) hope is that the electorate will be repulsed by her enough to restrict any (further) damage she can do.

 

[It'sOnlyAGame]

I wonder what Os and IOAG have said about this vile creature and her hate politics, almost trumpian.

Thanks for wondering but I'm wondering why you've included me and what your point is. Are you trying some sort of retaliation because I've had a pop at Thumbwood today?
I know you're not being genuine but if on this occasion you genuinely want to know my opinion on what Braverman has said I'm quite happy to give it. But that's not what you really want is it?

 

[StJabbo1]

Slightly tongue in cheeks, I thought you asked a similar question. If I'm wrong I'm wrong and it was someone else. I do wonder what you of right wing views on here make of Braverman pandering to the ERG and beyond. Old school high Tory chums, majority remainers, are horrified by the pre/post brexit leadership
Edit, so you did re the attack in Edinburgh. If proved then those responsible should be able charged with hate if not terrorist crimes and suffer the full weight of the law.

 

[EasyBreezer]

Thanks for wondering but I'm wondering why you've included me and what your point is. Are you trying some sort of retaliation because I've had a pop at Thumbwood today?
I know you're not being genuine but if on this occasion you genuinely want to know my opinion on what Braverman has said I'm quite happy to give it. But that's not what you really want is it?

Its because you and some others have a bizarre tenancy to post asking why certain people aren't posting about certain topics as if their silence on certain things implicates them in some unknown way.

 

[saintrichie123]

Not a particularly a fan of Keir, but he said it well…..and Sunak knows it.

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[StJabbo1]

Not a particularly a fan of Keir, but he said it well…..and Sunak knows it.

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Yes it was well said, her's and the government's words and deeds need close scrutiny and censure.

 

[It'sOnlyAGame]

Its because you and some others have a bizarre tenancy to post asking why certain people aren't posting about certain topics as if their silence on certain things implicates them in some unknown way.

When I want your opinion I'll ask for it.