Off Topic Coronavirus and NOTHING to do with football thread

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colognehornet said:
I share your feelings Frenchie with a couple of reservations - firstly there is no proof that Russia is funding Hamas. Russia certainly benefits from a localized war restricted to Gaza but if it opened up on several fronts it could get very difficult for them to maintain their influence in the Middle East. This is why Putin is trying to act as a peacebroker between the two sides - Russia also has economic interests with Israel, and it is remarkable that Israel was one of the countries initially reluctant to criticize Russia. My horror is that the mood within Israel (or at least its government and army) is the wish to collectively punish the Palestinian people. I cannot imagine where they think 2 million people can go to get away from their bombs, nor can I imagine it is in the minds of the Israeli government that any refugees would ever return once having gone - to Israel it may have a touch of ethnic cleansing about it. I just do not know how far the Israelis can go in the direction of war crimes and apartheid measures before the West stops brushing their crimes under the carpet - and they have been doing similar things to this, of and on, for the last 70 years.
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The Russian funding for Hamas came from a detailed investigation from Bloomberg, which quoted amounts and methods of transfer that seemed well sourced.
I find that comments from Putin regarding peace to be laughable when you consider what he is doing in Ukraine. He is taking whatever measures he can to destabilize the west, whether through funnelling money into the UK or the Middle East, where the west is financially involved.
The governments of the west should also hang their heads in shame when the arms industry has become a major supplier of tax income. Cut out the arms, and let them throw stones at each other if they must.
 
yorkshirehornet said:
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Makes me so so angry.,
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Quite rightly too - as do these weasel words Sunak uttered make me angry -

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From where I'm sitting, Israel has been the cause of said "violence and terrorism", not the victim - having been guilty of occupying Palestinian territory since 1967.

I'm far from being an expert on international law, but I fail see that it would permit anyone to lay siege to another country/territory, cut off power/water/food & medical supplies, and control the borders to stop people leaving.

As for them taking every precaution to avoid harming citizens, does Sunak think - or even believe - that every piece of weaponry utilised by the IDF is somehow programmed to not harm civilians? The man is an utter plank...
 
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Bolton's Boots said:
Quite rightly too - as do these weasel words Sunak uttered make me angry -

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From where I'm sitting, Israel has been the cause of said "violence and terrorism", not the victim - having been guilty of occupying Palestinian territory since 1967.

I'm far from being an expert on international law, but I fail see that it would permit anyone to lay siege to another country/territory, cut off power/water/food & medical supplies, and control the borders to stop people leaving.

As for them taking every precaution to avoid harming citizens, does Sunak think - or even believe - that every piece of weaponry utilised by the IDF is somehow programmed to not harm civilians? The man is an utter plank...
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Yes he really is a caricature of PM
 
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Sunak says he wants Israel to win. What game does he think is being played? No one can win here by force, and he should keep quiet if he wants to be taken seriously.
 
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Bolton's Boots said:
Quite rightly too - as do these weasel words Sunak uttered make me angry -

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From where I'm sitting, Israel has been the cause of said "violence and terrorism", not the victim - having been guilty of occupying Palestinian territory since 1967.

I'm far from being an expert on international law, but I fail see that it would permit anyone to lay siege to another country/territory, cut off power/water/food & medical supplies, and control the borders to stop people leaving.

As for them taking every precaution to avoid harming citizens, does Sunak think - or even believe - that every piece of weaponry utilised by the IDF is somehow programmed to not harm civilians? The man is an utter plank...
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Up to now they have hit residential homes, churches, mosques, possibly a hospital and refugee camps - all in the name of self defence. A third of the dead have been children. They have also used white phosphorous bombs which are forbidden. If this was coming from Russia then we would have graphic pictures in every news item but Israel is apparently above such laws. For years they have successfully used the anti semitism weapon as a kind of shield against criticism, as Corbyn and others have found out. At the same time we need to cut through this argument - Israel does not equal the Jewish people, thousands of Jews Worldwide are horrified by what Netanyahu is doing in their name and we need to support them (ie. Jews for peace) in this. Netanyahu is the biggest Anti Semitist of all and we need to remember that. At the same time Hamas does not equal the Palestinian people. If it's any consolation to those in the UK, criticism of Israel is even harder to express in Germany because of history.
 
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Just a further fact check here:
In its so called war of self defence the Israeli Defence forces have dropped 6,000 bombs on the Gaza Strip in 6 days - this is around the same number as the USA dropped on Afghanistan (which is 1,800 times bigger than the Gaza Strip) in an entire year. In the process they have destroyed:
89,184 residential units
164 Educational facilities
19 Places of worship
24 Health Care centres (not all fully operational)
23 Ambulances
11 Water sanitation facilities

In the meantime Netanyahu has threatened to turn Gaza into a ''deserted island'' - they have been under an air, sea and land blockade from Israel since 2007 and I guess Netanyahu wants to spare the expenses of a continuation of that - and in the meantime our PM ''Hopes that they will win'' !!!!! Apparently the so called ''terrorists'' are all on the other side.
 
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Russia has dropped Phosphorus bombs repeatedly on Ukraine, hit civilians on a daily basis and bombed the **** out of civilian areas/hospitals repeatedly. Russian war crimes are only available on Twitter/Telegram, the news have ignored the most of the atrocities. The fake hospital bombing has been more of a big deal than anything that happened in Ukraine. Some people are just deluded and still ignore Russia's vile acts, the Hamas stuff is linked to them.
 
Toby said:
Russia has dropped Phosphorus bombs repeatedly on Ukraine, hit civilians on a daily basis and bombed the **** out of civilian areas/hospitals repeatedly. Russian war crimes are only available on Twitter/Telegram, the news have ignored the most of the atrocities. The fake hospital bombing has been more of a big deal than anything that happened in Ukraine. Some people are just deluded and still ignore Russia's vile acts, the Hamas stuff is linked to them.
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Putin has an international arrest warrant out on him, and Russia is being boycotted by the western World, also we are heavily arming the opposition so I think it would be hard to claim that we are ''ignoring'' what Russia does. The difference is that such a boycott of Israel or such treatment of Netanyahu, or even the claim that Israel is an Apartheid state is viewed as being anti Semitic and they have used that as a shield for decades.
 
colognehornet said:
Putin has an international arrest warrant out on him, and Russia is being boycotted by the western World, also we are heavily arming the opposition so I think it would be hard to claim that we are ''ignoring'' what Russia does. The difference is that such a boycott of Israel or such treatment of Netanyahu, or even the claim that Israel is an Apartheid state is viewed as being anti Semitic and they have used that as a shield for decades.
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If those in the Western world can be accused of being anti-Semitic for holding such views, why can't the Israelis themselves be similarly labelled for their views on Palestinians? After all, Palestinians are Semitic people too.
 
colognehornet said:
Putin has an international arrest warrant out on him, and Russia is being boycotted by the western World, also we are heavily arming the opposition so I think it would be hard to claim that we are ''ignoring'' what Russia does. The difference is that such a boycott of Israel or such treatment of Netanyahu, or even the claim that Israel is an Apartheid state is viewed as being anti Semitic and they have used that as a shield for decades.
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There's a difference though, the current situation in Gaza was triggered by them randomly murdering over 1k civilians in their homes. Why would the world impose sanctions on them for that? Ukraine did nothing to cause the current war with Russia. The numbers are much higher too, Mariupol alone is tens of thousands of dead civilians (the exact number could be higher, Russia dug miles of graves and threw bodies in there or bulldozed over the ruins).

Your current concern for the Palestinians is very strange. Shouldn't they just give up their land for peace? That's your solution for Ukraine.
 
Toby said:
There's a difference though, the current situation in Gaza was triggered by them randomly murdering over 1k civilians in their homes. Why would the world impose sanctions on them for that? Ukraine did nothing to cause the current war with Russia. The numbers are much higher too, Mariupol alone is tens of thousands of dead civilians (the exact number could be higher, Russia dug miles of graves and threw bodies in there or bulldozed over the ruins).

Your current concern for the Palestinians is very strange. Shouldn't they just give up their land for peace? That's your solution for Ukraine.
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I have never said that Ukraine should give up its land, nor have I ever been on Putin's side. I did not justify their invasion of Ukraine. Our difference is that I am a realist on this one. I do believe that the NATO expansion up to Russia's doorstep and also American involvement in Ukraine since 2000 have prepared the way for this but I do not justify Russia's invasion. But the truth is that even if you had your perfect solution ie. that the Russians were pushed back to Moscow and Ukraine joins NATO thus creating a new cold war scenario, the problems would not end there. I can see no other solution than a ceasefire involving referendums (overseen by neutral observers) in which areas with Russian majorities choose what they want from their future. The long term security of Ukraine is also not well served by becoming a highly armed outpost of the West on Russia's doorstep. But I suggest that if you want to pursue this then there is a Ukraine thread for it.
 
colognehornet said:
I have never said that Ukraine should give up its land, nor have I ever been on Putin's side. I did not justify their invasion of Ukraine. Our difference is that I am a realist on this one. I do believe that the NATO expansion up to Russia's doorstep and also American involvement in Ukraine since 2000 have prepared the way for this but I do not justify Russia's invasion. But the truth is that even if you had your perfect solution ie. that the Russians were pushed back to Moscow and Ukraine joins NATO thus creating a new cold war scenario, the problems would not end there. I can see no other solution than a ceasefire involving referendums (overseen by neutral observers) in which areas with Russian majorities choose what they want from their future. The long term security of Ukraine is also not well served by becoming a highly armed outpost of the West on Russia's doorstep. But I suggest that if you want to pursue this then there is a Ukraine thread for it.
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That's solved the Israel/Palestine situation then. Let's have a vote to establish the borders with neutral observers. Any outcome of the vote is final and no one can attack anyone anymore. No more weapons sent to Gaza from Iran/Syria/North Korea as the long term security of Palestine is not well served by being a highly armed outpost of the Middle East on Israel's doorstep.

Problem solved.
 
Toby said:
That's solved the Israel/Palestine situation then. Let's have a vote to establish the borders with neutral observers. Any outcome of the vote is final and no one can attack anyone anymore. No more weapons sent to Gaza from Iran/Syria/North Korea as the long term security of Palestine is not well served by being a highly armed outpost of the Middle East on Israel's doorstep.

Problem solved.
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The long term security of Palestine is hardly best served by having an Apartheid, land grabbing state on its doorstep which has been armed up to be one of the most sophisticated military machines in the World by the USA and other Western nations for about the last 70 years. A state which was also given to them by another Western power on Palestinian land over the heads of the locals who were either transformed into the largest refugee population in the world, or systematically herded into an area no bigger than the distance from Watford to Central London and only a few kilometres wide.
 
Civilization in the world is taking a right battering at the moment. 75 years ago the Russians blockaded the areas of Berlin that the west controlled after WWII, cutting off water, food, coal and electricity supplies. The Berlin airlift and a retaliatory blockade of the eastern part of the city, affecting the Russian economy, brought it to an end after a year. The long period of Cold War started, that existed for forty years until the Soviet Union broke up, with countries choosing to be independent. So now, after all this time, we have one nation trying to impose its will by blockade of essential supplies, yet the option of an airlift again doesn't exist. It is difficult to see the countries with the muscle to sanction Israel, when you see a supposed leader telling them "we want you to win".
In my humble opinion, Hamas and Israel are both in the wrong, and the world organizations such as the UN is being sidelined. Hence, my opening sentence. We have not learned the lessons of the past.
 
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oldfrenchhorn said:
Civilization in the world is taking a right battering at the moment. 75 years ago the Russians blockaded the areas of Berlin that the west controlled after WWII, cutting off water, food, coal and electricity supplies. The Berlin airlift and a retaliatory blockade of the eastern part of the city, affecting the Russian economy, brought it to an end after a year. The long period of Cold War started, that existed for forty years until the Soviet Union broke up, with countries choosing to be independent. So now, after all this time, we have one nation trying to impose its will by blockade of essential supplies, yet the option of an airlift again doesn't exist. It is difficult to see the countries with the muscle to sanction Israel, when you see a supposed leader telling them "we want you to win".
In my humble opinion, Hamas and Israel are both in the wrong, and the world organizations such as the UN is being sidelined. Hence, my opening sentence. We have not learned the lessons of the past.
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And, with the goings-on in Ukraine and Gaza, I think the world has finally realised that the media impartiality doesn't exist and they can no longer be trusted to deliver the truth of any given situation. Which is sad really, we none of us should have to be trying to determine which version of events is the most plausible, we should be getting verifiable facts. Unfortunately that's unlikely to happen when we have a government that is prepared to blithely lie through its teeth to the public on any subject.
 
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