And just a further note, Os, I'd do some reading about the Nakba: the forced dispossession and displacement of nearly a million Palestinians in 1948-1949 within the original territory of the Palestine mandate. Often brutally: rather than ask nicely, the Irgun tended to gently suggest that people leave their homes by indiscriminate bomb attacks on civilians until they fled. To ensure they couldn't return, they often poisoned wells. Cool stuff. So whatever you think about historical Israel or shell games a person wants to play with Palestine's legal status, what is undisputed is that those people owned their individual properties. They had title to the land, and they were removed, with violence, and received zero compensation for their property. As someone who represents themselves as a staunch supporter of property rights, forcibly stripping hundreds of thousands of most/all of their worldly possessions (and leaving them as stateless internal refugees in the process) is something that I can't imagine you supporting. I'm certainly not without sympathy for those that carried out the Nakba...most had lost family -- many almost all of their family -- in the Holocaust almost immediately prior, and like a lot of peoples who have experienced unthinkable trauma, their takeaway was that they had to be hard bastards to deal with a world of hard bastards, and securing their own survival required that they do so by any means necessary. I get it, really, I do. But it was still a crime against humanity, and that mentality is something I cannot support (and neither can you, from the looks, given that mentality is what fuels Hamas).
Oh what a surprise, social media disgraces being used being used to spread lies and misinformation. https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...mas-war-disinformation-is-being-spread-online
But it is how everything works. Every land is up for grabs. Every bit of land is won or lost by violence. If you can’t defend the land then you lose it. Israel have better weapons so they are taking Palestine. It’s horrible but fairly simple and what has happened throughout all of human history. All this talk of birth rights and legal ownership means absolutely nothing. Borders & property rights are only as good as your ability to enforce them with weapons.
That's, uh, a slightly different perspective than "Israel just wants to live peacefully but the Palestinians won't let them" from a day previous.
No it isn’t. They have tried to be peaceful for a long time now. They are the ones that have warned civilians before any attacks and in general strived to create a democracy and be a force for good in the world. They are the ones being attacked by insane zealots, even after being open to negotiation for decades
Why? It’s reality. It is better to know and understand the truth than pretend it doesn’t exist. This is the problem with the liberal way of thinking. It is based on the mental frame of origin that everyone thinks like you and respects property rights & borders. Your entire liberal mindset comes from a position of immense privilege protected by… massive violence
So, to combine those two things: Israel is within its rights to ethnically cleanse the Palestinian Territories because might makes right, but as their desired goal is peace (after the ethnic cleansing), the Palestinians are wrong for resisting?
no, not at all. But they are within their rights to go after Hamas, which they are doing. There is never any excuse to go after civilians for any reason. Again, I’m not saying that I agree with this or like it. I am simply saying it as the reality. I sort of see it like this: Violence is at the human hardware level Politics (and therefor peace) is a software layer which can only be built once there is a layer of hardware below it. (And to continue the analogy, finance/economics is the firmware layer between the two)
You really need to get the information you asked for regarding the Israeli/Palestinian and Lebanon disputes. A couple of suggestions were made which you obviously haven't used.
Again: in a world where might makes right, and Israel is continuing to try and use force to take more territory, what exactly is the response the Palestinians should have?
No patronising Os. You may well have a different opinion after reading some accounts of the history. Better to read more than one to get a fuller understanding.
Fight, if they wish. I personally would strive for peace as I think the war is unwinmable for them. But eventually one side will have to admit defeat if there is to be a lasting peace. Otherwise we would still be fighting the Norman invaders from 1066
What does that look like in your eyes when, again, Israel continues seizing more territory...not by war, but by allowing Israeli settlers to terrorize Palestinian civilians, beat them and burn down their houses until they leave? That's their peace. Their peace is continuing to do so until the whole of the region they call Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) is ethnically cleansed.
How can you admit Israel has been stealing land for decades but also attempt to maintain they only want to live peacefully. Genuinely insane stuff this.
How do you strive for peace when you're being ethnically cleansed out of interest? What you do in the situation if you were a Palestinian?
Time moves on. The settlement happened a generation ago. Using this argument is pretty weak IMO. There has been ample time for both sides to strive for peace. Instead both sides have chosen more violence. It’s an insane issue I agree. There is no solution. This is why it never ends. I don’t pretend to have the answers, or agree with any of it. I just am stating what I see as obvious based on where we are: Israel has no choice now but to wipe Hamas out.
Mate I have no idea. I am on the Palestinian civilians side. I am on the Israeli civilians side. It’s easy to understand both sides sat here in our ivory tower. I do truly believe what I posted yesterday though; if you had given all the weapons in the Middle East to Israel last week, nothing would have changed. Israel is a democracy and wants to be a part of the global community. They aren’t the ones looking for a fight anymore. If you had given every weapon in the Middle East to Hamas, Israel would have been ethnically cleansed. Hamas don’t care about anything other when wiping Jews out. (You can argue that’s justified from their point of view.) But Hamas are 100% the ones hunting for genocide & ethnic cleansing here. I don’t know. The whole situation is ****ed.
There's territorial disputes and a number of sources of information regarding them. Thankfully most are being resolved peacefully unfortunately not all with some notable flashpoints. Ths looks an interesting start. https://brilliantmaps.com/territorial-disputes/
