Transfer Rumours Arrivals / Departures lounges, Summer 2023.
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Webber can’t win with some fans, when we went up the first time there was an element of understanding but also a lot of criticism that he hadn’t spent money to try to stay up.
Can you imagine the **** he would get for signing a L1 striker for peanuts as a starting player in the PL and they fail to score?
Btw recruiting Tzolis was about signing a young player from a lower league who looked to have a lot of potential and hopefully still does.
Hindsight is a great thing isn’t it…if only we knew exactly how each signing would work out exactly then we could only sign the ones that work and everything would be perfect
You're right - recruitment is always going to be hit and miss, never a science. In any case, I don't think Webber's recruitment has been too bad overall. He got some things spectacularly right (Farke, Pukki, Buendia) and some things spectacularly wrong (Smith, Gilmour, Normann). Seems about par for the course over five years.
The tension/disconnect between the club and the fans, though, and the pointless petty spats with the local media, can be laid at his door, and this is the reason I believe he needs to go before we can get our club back together, with everyone pulling in the same direction.
If he and Wagner are still around at the beginning of next season and we make a poor start, there's another season wiped out as it descends into feuding once more. I know many people on here will disagree with me, but that's how I see it.
A few days ago, Michael Bailey did a piece in The Athletic listing 58 players (including loanees) signed since Stuart Webber became the club’s Sporting Director. The list is basically of those who have featured in the first team squad. As MB says, “this is far from the complete list. There have been plenty of development signings loaned out, moved on for profit, released or still hoping to make an impact”.
He splits the 58 into three groups, which he labels Hits, Misses or Jury Still Out. This is his verdict:
Hits: 21
Misses: 30
JSO: 7
To avoid this descending into a free for all about which group particular players should be in, I’m not giving away who MB puts in each group. I don’t agree with his opinion in every case, but his is an experienced, knowledgeable and independent voice. As you might expect, the players in the Jury Still Out category are all current first team squad members; 4 of the 7 are aged 23 or younger, while 1 falls into an older age group. If I were asked for an opinion on the seven, I would already include two among the Hits and none of the others as definite Misses.
He splits the 58 into three groups, which he labels Hits, Misses or Jury Still Out. This is his verdict:
Hits: 21
Misses: 30
JSO: 7
To avoid this descending into a free for all about which group particular players should be in, I’m not giving away who MB puts in each group. I don’t agree with his opinion in every case, but his is an experienced, knowledgeable and independent voice. As you might expect, the players in the Jury Still Out category are all current first team squad members; 4 of the 7 are aged 23 or younger, while 1 falls into an older age group. If I were asked for an opinion on the seven, I would already include two among the Hits and none of the others as definite Misses.
Where Webber has succeeded most is in the recruitment of young players like Gibbs, Rowe and Springett and bringing on others who were here when he came, like Maddison, Godfrey and Lewis. Even then, he has been criticised by some for recruiting players before they're ready for the first team.
My main criticism is of the huge money spent on Rashica, Sargent and Tzolis, as well as the expensive loans like Amadou, Normann and Hayden. Only Sargent has fitted into the squad on the pitch and off it, while still developing further with goals and assists delivered. Tzolis may yet come good, but he doesn't look near doing so yet, IMO.
My main criticism is of the huge money spent on Rashica, Sargent and Tzolis, as well as the expensive loans like Amadou, Normann and Hayden. Only Sargent has fitted into the squad on the pitch and off it, while still developing further with goals and assists delivered. Tzolis may yet come good, but he doesn't look near doing so yet, IMO.
The media took something Webber said out of context and then drove a narrative which some fans couldn’t wait to get behind, they then compounded thing a by breaching the trust of the club, and when the consequences then started to hit them - like restricted access they bitched and moaned and every opportunity and pushed the previous narrative at every opportunity.
Webber has done a great job at bringing the club forward off the pitch, been a part of 2 successful promotion campaigns all whilst operating on a shoe string budget for the top two leagues. I believe he also has played a significant part in bringing the Attanasios to the club, not least by making the club infrastructure more appealing.
Webber has done a great job at bringing the club forward off the pitch, been a part of 2 successful promotion campaigns all whilst operating on a shoe string budget for the top two leagues. I believe he also has played a significant part in bringing the Attanasios to the club, not least by making the club infrastructure more appealing.
Huge money is all relative though isn’t it, he spent big for us but realistically teams are spending the money those 3 cost us and much more for a single player. I hold my hands up I thought Rashica was an amazing coup for us and still can’t believe it didn’t work, Tzolis was always said to have been bought as one for the future - we are yet to see that yet but the potential is there. Sargent was the least exciting given his previous goal record and yet has probably been the best signing - he may have struggled last year but he is our top goalscorer this season despite not playing as a striker very often.
I get the Amadou, Normann and Hayden issues as none of them were ever properly fit to play, but we don’t know if/what other targets may have turned us down
I'm talking about signing a young Championship or League 1 striker to replace Pukki rather than 33 year old Barnes on a free because we are broke .
The thing is, even with the three you describe as spectacularly wrong, I think that’s very much up for debate.
Smith was on paper the perfect candidate for us especially at the time we let Farke go. At the beginning it looked like the right decision, with no-one really that surprised with the start to the season despite Farke’s first win. I’m actually confident that with a bit of luck it could have worked out or at least we could have made a better fist of it.
Normann’s inherently tied into that. When he first arrived he looked brilliant, he had a couple of great games. Unfortunately, he got injured and it was clearly chronic - but how close was that to being a success? We will never know but I think it was very close. And financially, it was a superb deal because we had him on a loan to buy so it didn’t actually cost us anything.
Gilmour was a different kettle of fish - he was played incorrectly because of injuries and being so young lost all confidence. That was a wrong place, wrong time, situation. He had just come off a fantastic performance on the world stage, and was also on loan, so there was nothing Webber could really be said to have done wrong.
For me, Webber’s made mistakes in terms of his approach to fans. But the only thing that has been spectacularly wrong in the last few years has been our record with injuries and badly timed Covid. I’m sure you could argue the injuries at least were in some ways down to poor management of training and recovery, but Webber’s not solely to blame for that.
We have needed a Centre back & DM for a few years but only buy wingers .
What a shock 2 center backs are injured so we have to play people out of position every season.
Plus we keep tinkering with different players that aren't naturally a DM.
Normann & Hayden were both loaned already injured
What a shock 2 center backs are injured so we have to play people out of position every season.
Plus we keep tinkering with different players that aren't naturally a DM.
Normann & Hayden were both loaned already injured
Although your first paragraph is written as if what you say is an undisputed fact, is it not a fact . What you say is the version of the truth that is put forward by Webber and the club. There is a different version of the truth which is put forward by the journalists at the Pink Un and Michael Bailey. They differ radically.
It seems that you believe the version of Webber and the club. Personally, I tend to believe that of the journalists. We have no way of knowing which is closer to the truth.
There is, of course, another possibility - that both parties genuinely believe their own position and that the truth lies somewhere in between.
But that’s where I think injuries come into it. Hanley has shown he was one of our best players - ok he’s not top class, but even in the Premier League he was a solid performer - and we aren’t the only club that thought Ben Gibson could make it (and I still think he could with a bit of confidence).
If we’d spent £6m plus on a centre back (or perhaps even more to be sure that we were upgrading) and then Hanley and Gibson had stayed fit almost all season (and I would bet the house on us being promoted if that had happened), we would be looking like muppets, especially with Omobamidele highly rated and perfect for stepping up occasionally for experience.
Similarly on DMs - the club has clearly tried. They tried to get someone (I’ve forgotten who) during the Covid disaster summer but because of Covid and being outbid we missed out, so they went for Normann in a way which was safest for the club (loan plus option to buy). If Normann had come off, they would be looking like geniuses. And spending big on another would have been a waste. Similarly Hayden was on paper perfect for us, as well as another safer bet with a loan to buy scenario, but injuries.
Now I get you could say “well stop buying injury prone players”, but that’s really hard because it’s down to luck and some players emerge from an injury crisis. It’s a bit of a bet. We aren’t owned by a petrostate so we have to take bets.
I maintain on all the points above we’ve been unlucky rather than taken the wrong decision - calculated bets/risks which just didn’t come off (but equally did not jeopardise the club’s financial position). In other ways as you know the bets have come good - Pukki, Buendia etc, so you win some and you lose some.
We shouldn’t be looking at the Lambert era, where so many bets came off all at once (though even then some failed), as the norm.
It’s definitely somewhere in the middle. Journos have a spin on it, and their own interests to serve. As does the club. It was an unhealthy example of competing interests making it worse for everyone.
We loaned Amadou as a DM & he spent more time covering at CB , we loaned Normann with a hip injury to fill the void of Skipp who was also a loanee, then we signed Hayden who barely played for Newcastle recovering from a knee operation, with only 3 recognised centre backs we now have Sorensen playing CB even though his natural position is DM .
Just buy a DM when Skipp left & a CB to cover suspenjured players .
Most teams have 4 CB in their squads
Just buy a DM when Skipp left & a CB to cover suspenjured players .
Most teams have 4 CB in their squads
It won't surprise you that I disagree with you, Rob.
IMO Smith was nowhere near the perfect candidate for us. Even if you don't have my low opinion of him as a manager in general, he had just come off losing his dream job at his home club and wasn't ready for a new challenge. Both stylistically, in terms of how he wanted to play, and psychologically, in terms of how he viewed leadership, he was very unlike Farke. He was only a suitable candidate if you assume that Webber had decided to ditch everything associated with 'Farkeball' and move to a different style and approach, and if you also do not believe that this decision was a mistake.
For me, Normann was a poseur, pure and simple. All style and no substance. If we were signing him as a DM, it should have been quite clear that he lacked the discipline, the mental fortitude, the resilience, and the willingness to sublimate his own ego for the good of the team that an excellent DM, such as Skipp or Tettey, displays. I would personally classify him as the worst of all those signings that summer because everyone looked at the surface and no one looked at the reality underneath which was obvious even at first glance.
I think signing Gilmour was understandable. At the time he really did seem like an exciting future star but in retrospect he wasn't ready for the challenge of being the lynchpin of a team fighting against relegation. He was asked to do too much.
Add to that the unsuitability of Kabak, the irrelevance of Williams, plus the fact that neither Sargent nor Tzolis were ready for a spell in the PL, and the added fact that this group of players didn't fit together as a team, and I think it's fair to call that summer's recruitment a spectacular failure.
EDIT: And I'll quickly add that I was wrong, too, in the sense that I was generally happy with the player recruitment at the time (although not with Smith).
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Thanks Gozo - I don’t think you are disagreeing with me all that much as actually all the points you make are simply the flip side to the coin of each of those hires. I think you make valid points, particularly with hindsight. But hindsight is a beautiful thing and for me, at the time, based on the facts we had then, we didn’t have that hindsight and the decisions looked like decent risk-based approaches (which we now know didn’t pay off).
I posted at the start of the last few seasons that we can't risk not having a 4th centre back again & can we please sign a permanent DM .
That's 20/20 foresight based on glaring mistakes that cost us in the previous seasons .
I coined the term suspenjuries to describe 1 injury 1 suspension means we only have 1 CB which is risky.
Meanwhile Tzolis , Rashica, Placheter , Martin & Springett all went out on loan & we signed Nunez, Sara & Marcelino .
There's always money available for attacking midfield players & wingers just nothing for a CB & DM .
It's extraordinary
Yes indeed. One aspect of the debate is failure to distinguish between players we wanted and tried to sign, and the players we, in the end, settled for. If, for example, you look at what actually happened in the summer of 2021, in terms of recruitment strategy, players targeted, negotiations entered into, and why in the end it played out as it did, I think you get a much more balanced perspective. Of course, the overriding context of everything that happened in that window was the sale of Buendia, the whys and wherefores of which decision are another question altogether.
Especially since Webber seemed keen to sack Farke and abandon 'Farkeball' last season in his move to be more 'pragmatic'. But not pragmatic enough to get a decent defence and DM, apparently. It's almost as if he hadn't a clue what he was doing, isn't it?