Transfer Rumours transfer thread fact and fiction

[humanbeingincroydon]

Porro Watch
Record (the Portuguese one, etc etc) claim that The Sheikh Mansour Team tried to gazump us on Deadline Day, but Porro told them he gave us his word he'd join us so told them to bugger off

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[Citizen Kane.]

He likely won't play enough though and that's excluding the fact he's been getting constant injuries. He simply isn't good enough to displace any of Kane, Son (form aside) or Kulusevski from the XI, especially Kane, who plays in his preferred position.

That's part of the gripe people like myself and CK have with spending so much on someone that doesn't improve nor make our strongest XI, we needed someone for the role but we didn't need to make it a record signing when there were more pressing needs that required significant funding.

The harsh reality is, we're likely going to be talking of Richarlison in the same breath as Ndombele, Lo Celso and co within the next 18 months, possibly earlier.

Agreed and I know you're not a fan of the idea and I've mentioned it maybe a hundred times, but I was half convinced we'd signed him to be a back-up to Kane but primarily to lead the line with Kane just behind him in more of a front 4 like we had under Poch. I had no idea just how wedded Conte is to the wing-back system with 3 up top, so much so that he wilfully plays awful players on the flanks and allows our midfield to be overrun, all for the sake of a formation.

The sad truth is, Richarlison was clearly a player Conte himself was pushing for, and his signing very much echoes his recruitment at Chelsea, where he personally pushed for the signatures of numerous expensive players who totally flopped.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

Agreed and I know you're not a fan of the idea and I've mentioned it maybe a hundred times, but I was half convinced we'd signed him to be a back-up to Kane but primarily to lead the line with Kane just behind him in more of a front 4 like we had under Poch. I had no idea just how wedded Conte is to the wing-back system with 3 up top, so much so that he wilfully plays awful players on the flanks and allows our midfield to be overrun, all for the sake of a formation.

The sad truth is, Richarlison was clearly a player Conte himself was pushing for, and his signing very much echoes his recruitment at Chelsea, where he personally pushed for the signatures of numerous expensive players who totally flopped.

If you look at how H plays at the moment, where he pulls to the right of the box when we're building up down the left, that's exactly how Diego Costa played at Chelsea - and with that in mind, given Richy is easily the strongest in the air out of all our forwards it's likely that at some point Conte's plan was Richy up top with H playing deeper

 

[Citizen Kane.]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64493480

Very timely and important article.

Summarises a problem that has been growing unchecked for the best part of two decades. The warning sign was the takeover at Chelsea. The EPL has marched unstoppably forward since then, leaving the entire continent behind.

It isn't so much the fact that over half the top 10 wealthiest clubs in the world are all in the PL, half of the top 20 are also all from the PL.
What's scary is that even though Wolves and Villa dropped out from last year's rich list, they were simply and immediately replaced by Leeds and Newcastle this year - no other country is within a country mile of the gravy train we've built here.

The point made that PL clubs will struggle to offload unwanted players as even an 'ordinary' salary here puts a player in the top percentile of earners in most continental leagues, really resonated with me as it is exactly the problem we are facing on a massive scale.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64493480

Very timely and important article.

Summarises a problem that has been growing unchecked for the best part of two decades. The warning sign was the takeover at Chelsea. The EPL has marched unstoppably forward since then, leaving the entire continent behind.

It isn't so much the fact that over half the top 10 wealthiest clubs in the world are all in the PL, half of the top 20 are also all from the PL.
What's scary is that even though Wolves and Villa dropped out from last year's rich list, they were simply and immediately replaced by Leeds and Newcastle this year - no other country is within a country mile of the gravy train we've built here.

The point made that PL clubs will struggle to offload unwanted players as even an 'ordinary' salary here puts a player in the top percentile of earners in most continental leagues, really resonated with me as it is exactly the problem we are facing on a massive scale.

TBH the warning signs have been there for the best part of ten years now within the Premier League, because once the league lost a handful of teams who were reasonably established in the league so had decent cash reserves such as Swansea and Stoke that coincided with us going from getting decent (or even silly) money for players like Wimmer and Naughton to having trouble offloading our players because at that point they were replaced either by clubs which switch divisions routinely such as Norwich, clubs who maintain a tight budget like Burnley, or clubs with the same buy low/sell high approach we had a decade ago like Brighton

In other words, Everton have been really bad at playing their role recently, as they should have paid through the nose for Sanchez by now

 

[Dier Hard]

Agreed and I know you're not a fan of the idea and I've mentioned it maybe a hundred times, but I was half convinced we'd signed him to be a back-up to Kane but primarily to lead the line with Kane just behind him in more of a front 4 like we had under Poch. I had no idea just how wedded Conte is to the wing-back system with 3 up top, so much so that he wilfully plays awful players on the flanks and allows our midfield to be overrun, all for the sake of a formation.

The sad truth is, Richarlison was clearly a player Conte himself was pushing for, and his signing very much echoes his recruitment at Chelsea, where he personally pushed for the signatures of numerous expensive players who totally flopped.

Yeah the thing with Kane at 10 and Richarlison at 9 is that it just felt too “Football Manager-y” to me. Not really keen on the logic of having our best finisher moved deeper to accommodate a weaker finisher in front of him. When Kane played the hybrid role he had the positional freedom of a 9 and 10, having him just play the 10 with someone else at the 9, I just don’t think it works as much as we’d perhaps like it too.

I really don’t quite get what Conte/ the club saw or expected from Richarlison. It was a huge head scratcher for me. With other big money flops they came with hope and potential at the least, with Richarlison I just saw a massively overpriced, slightly above average player that wouldn’t really improve us other than provide an upgrade on Bergwijn and Lucas in the squad but as of yet he’s not even been that.

So far an incredible waste of money that hasn’t really come as much of a surprise.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Yeah the thing with Kane at 10 and Richarlison at 9 is that it just felt too “Football Manager-y” to me. Not really keen on the logic of having our best finisher moved deeper to accommodate a weaker finisher in front of him. When Kane played the hybrid role he had the positional freedom of a 9 and 10, having him just play the 10 with someone else at the 9, I just don’t think it works as much as we’d perhaps like it too.

I'd like to find out at some point, instead of playing a bunch of players out of position.
Kane plays better when he can drop deep, but so do Son and Kulusevski.
His creativity helps everyone and we're sorely lacking in it at the moment.
I wouldn't start all four, but I'd like to see it used as an option if we're trailing.

 

[Dier Hard]

I'd like to find out at some point, instead of playing a bunch of players out of position.
Kane plays better when he can drop deep, but so do Son and Kulusevski.
His creativity helps everyone and we're sorely lacking in it at the moment.
I wouldn't start all four, but I'd like to see it used as an option if we're trailing.

Having Kane revert to the hybrid role likely solves a number of issues but I’m not overly interested in seeing Richarlison lead the line in front of Kane. I think it’d end up being counter productive. If we’re chasing a game and going gung-ho then yeah, it’d be worth a shot to have all four on but you could argue that case for bringing on any of Lucas, Danjuma and Richarlison when in that situation, Danjuma (on very early impressions) especially looks like he could be a very handy player off the bench and even an option to start if Son doesn’t pick himself up soon.

I just wish we didn’t put ourselves in this mess where we’re trying to figure out how to make use of a £60m squad player.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Having Kane revert to the hybrid role likely solves a number of issues but I’m not overly interested in seeing Richarlison lead the line in front of Kane. I think it’d end up being counter productive. If we’re chasing a game and going gung-ho then yeah, it’d be worth a shot to have all four on but you could argue that case for bringing on any of Lucas, Danjuma and Richarlison when in that situation, Danjuma (on very early impressions) especially looks like he could be a very handy player off the bench and even an option to start if Son doesn’t pick himself up soon.

I just wish we didn’t put ourselves in this mess where we’re trying to figure out how to make use of a £60m squad player.

The initial idea was presumably that he could play as cover for the front 3.
Primarily Kane and Son, in my opinion, but I'm not sure Conte shares it.
He stuck him on the right in Kulusevski's absence and it just doesn't work.
He's not a similar player and it's his weakest position of the 3 by far.

 

[The Huddlefro]

Having Kane revert to the hybrid role likely solves a number of issues but I’m not overly interested in seeing Richarlison lead the line in front of Kane. I think it’d end up being counter productive. If we’re chasing a game and going gung-ho then yeah, it’d be worth a shot to have all four on but you could argue that case for bringing on any of Lucas, Danjuma and Richarlison when in that situation, Danjuma (on very early impressions) especially looks like he could be a very handy player off the bench and even an option to start if Son doesn’t pick himself up soon.

I just wish we didn’t put ourselves in this mess where we’re trying to figure out how to make use of a £60m squad player.

Richy is a tricky one. We definitely paid more than I’d have liked BUT it goes back to a point I made on another thread earlier. There’s no definitive value for a player. He was keeping a club in the PL and is Brazil’s no.9. He’s also the correct profile for us - mid 20s, plenty of PL experience, versatile so he’d get gametime. He provided a solution to three pressing problems (cover for Kane, cover for Son, a proper striker to go 2 up if we wanted) and we paid through the nose to get him - ironically, what a lot of people accuse Levy of not sanctioning enough.

I can’t help but feel that his extremely frustrating injury situation has affected perceptions of his actual qualities as a player. Ideally he should have had a run of games instead of Son during his awful run of form and Richy would probably have a few goals and we’d have seen more of his qualities. Instead he’s played mostly in his least effective position (on the right) and not really had a proper run at it. It feels like we’ve barely seen him on the pitch for months, in a Spurs shirt anyway.

 

[Dier Hard]

Richy is a tricky one. We definitely paid more than I’d have liked BUT it goes back to a point I made on another thread earlier. There’s no definitive value for a player. He was keeping a club in the PL and is Brazil’s no.9. He’s also the correct profile for us - mid 20s, plenty of PL experience, versatile so he’d get gametime. He provided a solution to three pressing problems (cover for Kane, cover for Son, a proper striker to go 2 up if we wanted) and we paid through the nose to get him - ironically, what a lot of people accuse Levy of not sanctioning enough.

I can’t help but feel that his extremely frustrating injury situation has affected perceptions of his actual qualities as a player. Ideally he should have had a run of games instead of Son during his awful run of form and Richy would probably have a few goals and we’d have seen more of his qualities. Instead he’s played mostly in his least effective position (on the right) and not really had a proper run at it. It feels like we’ve barely seen him on the pitch for months, in a Spurs shirt anyway.

Definitive value maybe not but there’s certainly a good perception of what a player should cost.

Paying through the nose is partly why fans are so peeved, because unlike previous expensive flops, many fans felt before a ball was kicked we were gonna be left somewhat disappointed.

I don’t think his injury record has altered perceptions of his quality by most fans either, many Spurs fans prior to his signing didn’t particularly rate him and many rival fans mocked us for paying what we did. This type of signing is like when we all mocked Utd for spending £80m on Maguire.

 

[The Huddlefro]

Definitive value maybe not but there’s certainly a good perception of what a player should cost.

Paying through the nose is partly why fans are so peeved, because unlike previous expensive flops, many fans felt before a ball was kicked we were gonna be left somewhat disappointed.

I don’t think his injury record has altered perceptions of his quality by most fans either, many Spurs fans prior to his signing didn’t particularly rate him and many rival fans mocked us for paying what we did. This type of signing is like when we all mocked Utd for spending £80m on Maguire.

I dunno about fan expectations. I think most people were pretty aware that he was a signing we needed that we overpaid for but finally got us a good backup for Kane who could also cover other forward positions. He was always going to be different to Jesus, who went straight in as a starter, and that was the main comparison. Different players going into different teams for different reasons.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t think we’ve had a good return on investment so far but IMO that’s mainly because he’s been injured. I think he’s a good player with a very good attitude who will be valuable if he stays fit. If he continues his current record of being injured though, it’s a disaster.

 

[PowerSpurs]

Definitive value maybe not but there’s certainly a good perception of what a player should cost.

Paying through the nose is partly why fans are so peeved, because unlike previous expensive flops, many fans felt before a ball was kicked we were gonna be left somewhat disappointed.

I don’t think his injury record has altered perceptions of his quality by most fans either, many Spurs fans prior to his signing didn’t particularly rate him and many rival fans mocked us for paying what we did. This type of signing is like when we all mocked Utd for spending £80m on Maguire.

I think we have to get used to it. We are starting to fish in the same pool as the really wealthy clubs but they have more experience of buying really good players.
Even at £60m a go you still only seem to get good value a third of the time. You probably do get a £30m player when things go wrong though so it does normally strengthen our squad.
Still can't work out how Lo Celso can be a starter for Argentina and look so ordinary playing for us though.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

I think we have to get used to it. We are starting to fish in the same pool as the really wealthy clubs but they have more experience of buying really good players.
Even at £60m a go you still only seem to get good value a third of the time. You probably do get a £30m player when things go wrong though so it does normally strengthen our squad.
Still can't work out how Lo Celso can be a starter for Argentina and look so ordinary playing for us though.

The issue is that we're fishing in that pool and only that pool, while ignoring other pools such as lower league talent we believe can be coached up to something special or players who aren't on other team's radars that we can sign for a song - the latter of which is particularly aggravating considering how Napoli are currently a buzzsaw in Serie A and two players who fall into that category have a large part to do with it

 

[Dier Hard]

I dunno about fan expectations. I think most people were pretty aware that he was a signing we needed that we overpaid for but finally got us a good backup for Kane who could also cover other forward positions. He was always going to be different to Jesus, who went straight in as a starter, and that was the main comparison. Different players going into different teams for different reasons.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t think we’ve had a good return on investment so far but IMO that’s mainly because he’s been injured. I think he’s a good player with a very good attitude who will be valuable if he stays fit. If he continues his current record of being injured though, it’s a disaster.

Fans wanted a fourth choice forward but I’m not sure many would have had Richarlison at the front of the queue for that position, especially when knowing the fee needed to pay for what is simply just a decent player and decent players don’t need to go for stupid fees. Vinicius and Llorente are both sound examples of that.

He brings very little to the team too other than being an extra body. Son, Kane and Kulusevski all have elite, unique qualities about them along with the ability to turn a game on its head through individual brilliance, Richarlison simply doesn’t have that. All he has is a fiery attitude and that can only go so far without the actual talent.

For as much as I’d love to be wrong, I just see him quickly joining Ndombele and Lo Celso on the “how did we mess up so badly?!” list.

 

[The Huddlefro]

Fans wanted a fourth choice forward but I’m not sure many would have had Richarlison at the front of the queue for that position, especially when knowing the fee needed to pay for what is simply just a decent player and decent players don’t need to go for stupid fees. Vinicius and Llorente are both sound examples of that.

He brings very little to the team too other than being an extra body. Son, Kane and Kulusevski all have elite, unique qualities about them along with the ability to turn a game on its head through individual brilliance, Richarlison simply doesn’t have that. All he has is a fiery attitude and that can only go so far without the actual talent.

For as much as I’d love to be wrong, I just see him quickly joining Ndombele and Lo Celso on the “how did we mess up so badly?!” list.

I think he’s got a bit more about him than you give him credit for but would agree he’s not a truly elite player right now. With that said, and while you can’t ignore what we paid for him, I think he’ll come good if he ever stays fit for long enough.

 

[Dier Hard]

I think we have to get used to it. We are starting to fish in the same pool as the really wealthy clubs but they have more experience of buying really good players.
Even at £60m a go you still only seem to get good value a third of the time. You probably do get a £30m player when things go wrong though so it does normally strengthen our squad.
Still can't work out how Lo Celso can be a starter for Argentina and look so ordinary playing for us though.

The problem here though is that we’ve not really fished in the same pool, we’ve just paid so much money that it looks like we have.

Many of the big clubs generally target players with reputations that you’d consider either world class, top class or potentially one of them. Some or even many of these players can still flop but there’s generally an expectation that they’ll deliver due to their stature or promise.

With us in Richarlison’s case, we paid a world class fee for a player that just about everyone would almost certainly agree is nothing more than decent and there are plenty of decent players in the Premier League that wouldn’t go for stupid money like he did.

I think Lo Celso looks/ looked good for Argentina and woeful for us is purely down international football not being as difficult as the Premier League. Many players look a lot better for their countries than they do for their clubs. Crouch for instance had a phenomenal strike rate for England yet was just a decent player at club level, players like Pickford and Maguire are currently excellent for England but poor or average for their clubs, Richarlison is actually another example of this too.

 

[Dier Hard]

I think he’s got a bit more about him than you give him credit for but would agree he’s not a truly elite player right now. With that said, and while you can’t ignore what we paid for him, I think he’ll come good if he ever stays fit for long enough.

But what is that?

What does Richarlison bring to the side that would make him unique in comparison to the others?

Because I personally look at our main three - Son’s form aside of course - and I see various unique and game changing abilities amongst them.

I look at Richarlison and don’t see anything that gives that “wow factor”. He relies heavily on others to provide him chances in order to score, many, many players are in that boat and they wouldn’t go for stupid money.

Whether it’s fair on him or not, he’s going to be judged as a £60m player and I feel all he can deliver at his max would be that of the equivalent to someone half or even a third of that price, so it feels like we’ll forever be disappointed.

 

[The Huddlefro]

But what is that?

What does Richarlison bring to the side that would make him unique in comparison to the others?

Because I personally look at our main three - Son’s form aside of course - and I see various unique and game changing abilities amongst them.

I look at Richarlison and don’t see anything that gives that “wow factor”. He relies heavily on others to provide him chances in order to score, many, many players are in that boat and they wouldn’t go for stupid money.

Whether it’s fair on him or not, he’s going to be judged as a £60m player and I feel all he can deliver at his max would be that of the equivalent to someone half or even a third of that price, so it feels like we’ll forever be disappointed.

I think he’s got that x-factor in the box, when you see some of the goals he scores. He’s a decent player and occasionally capable of the spectacular.

With Danjuma now at the club, Richy’s signing feels a little different though as we’re less in need of a flexible forward and more a 9, which Richy can do, but part of why he was signed was for versatility and because he was performing well for a dire Everton team, which shows quality. He was literally keeping them up, and PL survival is big money, hence the fee.

 

[Dier Hard]

I think he’s got that x-factor in the box, when you see some of the goals he scores. He’s a decent player and occasionally capable of the spectacular.

With Danjuma now at the club, Richy’s signing feels a little different though as we’re less in need of a flexible forward and more a 9, which Richy can do, but part of why he was signed was for versatility and because he was performing well for a dire Everton team, which shows quality. He was literally keeping them up, and PL survival is big money, hence the fee.

I don’t personally see any X-Factor other than an occasional standard Brazilian-esque flick but in terms of what he can do in the box, I’d say Kane does everything so much better - and with both feet.

He turned up towards the end of last season for Everton but he was just as much responsible for their plight as every other player in that side, albeit their board are the ones to actually blame for getting it so wrong. Everton were the kings of overpaying for average talent, we then overpaid for one of their average talents ourselves.

I just don’t see how he becomes a success here, though again, I will happily eat my words if he proves me wrong, albeit I feel almost certain he won’t.