Off Topic Politics Thread

[Ian Thumwood]

I agree with you here O.

IMO the further to the left Labour go, the more unelectable they become. For some reason the same isn’t true for the right.

I actually think that the truth would be much more nuanced. There will be parts of the counry like Liverpool and Glasgow that would embraced a Socialist government. We have never elected this kind of govt before and have not really be close to doing so since the 1920s. I think the results of 2016 prove surprising in demontrating that there is an appetite for Socialism. Newspaper and online media gets prescious little coverage from this side of politics.. If they were pushed in to the mainstream and organisations like the BBC stopped relying on the Guardian for their opinion and went ti the Morning Star instead, this would help. In my opinion, no parrty has ever offered a proper Socialist manifesto to the British public for years. I could see that it would have a broader appeal than you might imagine - especially in the North , Scotland and amongst younger people.

 

[thereisonlyoneno7]

I actually think that the truth would be much more nuanced. There will be parts of the counry like Liverpool and Glasgow that would embraced a Socialist government. We have never elected this kind of govt before and have not really be close to doing so since the 1920s. I think the results of 2016 prove surprising in demontrating that there is an appetite for Socialism. Newspaper and online media gets prescious little coverage from this side of politics.. If they were pushed in to the mainstream and organisations like the BBC stopped relying on the Guardian for their opinion and went ti the Morning Star instead, this would help. In my opinion, no parrty has ever offered a proper Socialist manifesto to the British public for years. I could see that it would have a broader appeal than you might imagine - especially in the North , Scotland and amongst younger people.

I will agree to disagree with you there Ian. As I said I am ever so slightly right of centre and I truly believe that in the main, most people that don't follow politics are the same. They would embrace a Tony Blair style Labour (IMO completely centre), but a true socialist government sadly wouldn't get the airtime. I say sadly, because in the ideal world a socialist government would be best for the populous as a whole, but not to the individuals.

The fact of the matter is that most people deep down are selfish (maybe too strong a word - maybe survivalists) and will vote what is best for them, not everyone. There are exceptions don't get me wrong, but ideals just don't wash with voters. To get a socialist government in, we need to change this and let everyone see the bigger picture.

The press/media/social media make this more difficult too as there is so much disinformation available, that people just go for what suits their narrative. Not everyone, but the mainstream people.

As a right of centre person though, unless there is something dramatic in the direction of the Tory party, Sir Kier gets my vote next time around.

 

[San Tejón]

I will agree to disagree with you there Ian. As I said I am ever so slightly right of centre and I truly believe that in the main, most people that don't follow politics are the same. They would embrace a Tony Blair style Labour (IMO completely centre), but a true socialist government sadly wouldn't get the airtime. I say sadly, because in the ideal world a socialist government would be best for the populous as a whole, but not to the individuals.

The fact of the matter is that most people deep down are selfish (maybe too strong a word - maybe survivalists) and will vote what is best for them, not everyone. There are exceptions don't get me wrong, but ideals just don't wash with voters. To get a socialist government in, we need to change this and let everyone see the bigger picture.

The press/media/social media make this more difficult too as there is so much disinformation available, that people just go for what suits their narrative. Not everyone, but the mainstream people.

As a right of centre person though, unless there is something dramatic in the direction of the Tory party, Sir Kier gets my vote next time around.

I think the word “selfish” is on the money.
Young people, without a pot to piss in, tend to be very pro Labour and Socialism because they can see how it benefits them.
But, as they get older and start getting a bit of money behind them, many change their minds about socialism and start moving away from it, as is always seen in voting by age stats.
The media is owned by Capitalists so it will never be pro Socialists which is why the Tories often use the word Socialist/Socialism as a derogatory comment, in the knowledge that so many people in the UK are ignorant of what Socialism actually stands for.
Politics should be taught at school, as in the students/pupils should all leave with a rudimentary understanding of the difference between things like Socialism and Capitalism, Marxism and Fascism etc and an understanding of what each party stands for, so that when it comes to voting they will understand what they are putting their X next to.
I have said before that most of the greatest things created in the UK were built on Socialist principles. I think most of us on here know what they are but I would wager that there are millions out there that don’t have a clue.

 

[StJabbo1]

Imagine you lived in a country where you had a a border with the whole of Europe foisted upon you against your will, by a corrupt government, supported by millions of people who were conned into voting for it. We want our border with the rest of Europe removed. How do we do that?

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[StJabbo1]

If this offends anyone on here..... Good it was intended.

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[Shandy_top_89]

Imagine you lived in a country where you had a a border with the whole of Europe foisted upon you against your will, by a corrupt government, supported by millions of people who were conned into voting for it. We want our border with the rest of Europe removed. How do we do that?

Although it is true that Scotland and NI voted majority against Brexit, many of us in England and Wales know that exact feeling we don’t have to imagine anything, we are living it too. Don’t forget it was under 52/48 in the U.K. as a whole.

Given the demographics behind Brexit though I’m not sure an independent Scotland would get in the EU any faster than the U.K. would rejoin. Both are decade(s) away.

A hard border on GB for an independent Scotland to rejoin the EU isn’t a reasonable solution either imo.

A U.K. with Scotland in it likely overturns Brexit longer term in my view (if the EU allows it), most under 40s in England and Wales overwhelmingly rejected Brexit and polling is showing the British public as a whole are starting to turn on it, even if the nutcases are still sizeable and extremely noisy.

 

[Gregm1988]

Although it is true that Scotland and NI voted majority against Brexit, many of us in England and Wales know that exact feeling we don’t have to imagine anything, we are living it too. Don’t forget it was under 52/48 in the U.K. as a whole.

Given the demographics behind Brexit though I’m not sure an independent Scotland would get in the EU any faster than the U.K. would rejoin. Both are decade(s) away.

A hard border on GB for an independent Scotland to rejoin the EU isn’t a reasonable solution either imo.

A U.K. with Scotland in it likely overturns Brexit longer term in my view (if the EU allows it), most under 40s in England and Wales overwhelmingly rejected Brexit and polling is showing the British public as a whole are starting to turn on it, even if the nutcases are still sizeable and extremely noisy.

Yes - I’d expect any EU related promises made in a upcoming Indyref would contain almost as many lies and/or omissions as the pro-Brexit ones in 2016

They’ll likely claim it will be a quick and easy process to rejoin the EU (like brexiteers did with trade deals) and gloss over the border issues (like brexiteers did with Northern Ireland)

 

[Ian Thumwood]

I think the Brexit vote ,as well as making an independent Scotland become more likely, has also made it less likely to be a success. An independent Scotland in the EU would thrive but outside it will have the same issues as the rest of the former UK but less capable of dealing with them.

If Scotland goes independent, I still see there being some hugely significant ties between the countries such as currency, defence, broadcasting, banking and industry. I am not convinced that any split will actually be that marked and could still see English investment in Scotland given that we would not want a bankrupt and failed state next door. If NS's vision of an independent Scotland is as sunny is she envisages, i would also say that this would be an attraction for Engish investment. All in all, i do not see any border restrictions being put in place nor do I envisage any impediments being introduced to affect Scottish residents in England. In summary, I cannot see an indepedent Scotland really upsetting the status quo and perhaps putting itself at a disadvantage with it's southern neighbour. There is , in all reality, very little for the English to fear from Scottish independence and it might also encourage us to move away from nuclear weapons too. The main difference is likely to be that an indepedent Scottish government would be far more progressive and modern than that in Westminster.

What I think would be fascinating is if an independent Scotland rejoined the EU whether NS would make a play forthe financial institutions in London. If I was in her shoes, I would do this although it is debatable how successful it would be. Having a financial sector that packed that amount of clout would rectify the shortfalls in the Scottish economy which , with the demise of gas, will struggle away from the rest of UK.

 

[saintrichie123]

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[Osvaldorama]

I think the word “selfish” is on the money.
Young people, without a pot to piss in, tend to be very pro Labour and Socialism because they can see how it benefits them.
But, as they get older and start getting a bit of money behind them, many change their minds about socialism and start moving away from it, as is always seen in voting by age stats.
The media is owned by Capitalists so it will never be pro Socialists which is why the Tories often use the word Socialist/Socialism as a derogatory comment, in the knowledge that so many people in the UK are ignorant of what Socialism actually stands for.
Politics should be taught at school, as in the students/pupils should all leave with a rudimentary understanding of the difference between things like Socialism and Capitalism, Marxism and Fascism etc and an understanding of what each party stands for, so that when it comes to voting they will understand what they are putting their X next to.
I have said before that most of the greatest things created in the UK were built on Socialist principles. I think most of us on here know what they are but I would wager that there are millions out there that don’t have a clue.

Great post, I agree completely. The part about education about the different systems is especially
important.
Many people don’t realise that communism killed more people last century than facism for example.

It seems to me that Capitalism gets a huge amount of hate, when it is responsible for a lot of good things.

I think the real problem is that no matter what system we end up using, human beings are flawed creatures & it’s all about having checks and balances against the worst of human behaviour.

 

[It'sOnlyAGame]

If this offends anyone on here..... Good it was intended.

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@ChilcoSaint As the poster has openly admitted that this post was intended to offend, rather than putting a like to this post, shouldn't you as a mod be reminding the poster of the forum terms of service and rules? You know like you do when someone posts something you don't agree with.

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[ChilcoSaint]

@ChilcoSaint As the poster has openly admitted that this post was intended to offend, rather than putting a like to this post, shouldn't you as a mod be reminding the poster of the forum terms of service and rules? You know like you do when someone posts something you don't agree with.

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Merry Christmas mate.

 

[Osvaldorama]

If this offends anyone on here..... Good it was intended.

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This is just 5 mins of pure narcissism. I find it amusing that these guys who claim that sex is unrelated to gender do nothing but talk about the stereotypes of male/female behaviour

I think gender dysmorphia is a real thing, but I also think that some people will find any excuse to be a victim.

 

[......loading......]

This is just 5 mins of pure narcissism. I find it amusing that these guys who claim that sex is unrelated to gender do nothing but talk about the stereotypes of male/female behaviour

I think gender dysmorphia is a real thing, but I also think that some people will find any excuse to be a victim.

The sad thing is that it is now becoming a label culture. You can’t have a masculine woman or a feminine man anymore. They are all something needing a label. It isn’t true. Not every woman who likes short hair is trans. Trans is an action of gender defiance and rebranding. For most their gender identity is still attached to their biological sex and doesn’t need a rebrand.

Anyway, this topic is way too vitriolic. Most people don’t give a crap what pronoun you use, but biological birth women do deserve a say in who can compete in sports. The shutting down of that debate is not liberal in any sense.

 

[......loading......]

Great post, I agree completely. The part about education about the different systems is especially
important.
Many people don’t realise that communism killed more people last century than facism for example.

It seems to me that Capitalism gets a huge amount of hate, when it is responsible for a lot of good things.

I think the real problem is that no matter what system we end up using, human beings are flawed creatures & it’s all about having checks and balances against the worst of human behaviour.

Communism is not left wing but right wing. The behaviour of the beast is what defines it and not the origins. Marxism is left wing but communism was about taking power from the poor and moving it to the rich. It collectivised in exactly the same way that capitalism monopolises. There was no empowerment of the poor under communism as it was fascism with a gaudy hat on.

As you say human greed is the biggest factor in all of this, but the constant repetition of the concept that human greed is inevitable and therefore capitalism is the best shot most of us have is just not true. Capitalism is the classification of one’s man’s work as being lesser to another. It is a very clever class confirmation too that acts to tell the poor man he is deserving whilst simultaneously removing all his chances in life.

We need to grow up as a species and start looking for new ways of doing things. Marx was right about a hell of a lot, but his ideas were enacted in a vacuum of leadership and through violent upheavals. If we could come to these socialist concepts democratically and enact them selfilessly then the world would be better for it.

we have abandoned idealism and hope and god is the world worse off for it

 

[Osvaldorama]

Communism is not left wing but right wing. The behaviour of the beast is what defines it and not the origins. Marxism is left wing but communism was about taking power from the poor and moving it to the rich. It collectivised in exactly the same way that capitalism monopolises. There was no empowerment of the poor under communism as it was fascism with a gaudy hat on.

As you say human greed is the biggest factor in all of this, but the constant repetition of the concept that human greed is inevitable and therefore capitalism is the best shot most of us have is just not true. Capitalism is the classification of one’s man’s work as being lesser to another. It is a very clever class confirmation too that acts to tell the poor man he is deserving whilst simultaneously removing all his chances in life.

We need to grow up as a species and start looking for new ways of doing things. Marx was right about a hell of a lot, but his ideas were enacted in a vacuum of leadership and through violent upheavals. If we could come to these socialist concepts democratically and enact them selfilessly then the world would be better for it.

we have abandoned idealism and hope and god is the world worse off for it

I think Marx was wrong about absolutely everything and that his ideas are toxic & dangerous.

Capitalism in my opinion is natural. Hierarchies are found in nature, they aren’t just a symptom of human behaviour

 

[......loading......]

I think Marx was wrong about absolutely everything and that his ideas are toxic & dangerous.

Capitalism in my opinion is natural. Hierarchies are found in nature, they aren’t just a symptom of human behaviour

Capitalism is not natural. It is a way of reflecting exchange which no longer applies. It was never intended for more than ‘You helped me with the crops so I owe you food’ and has become another way for the rich to devalue the worth of the working man’s labour. People make billions for doing nothing - while removing the potential earning for others - and centralise wealth away from the poor. Society is more divided now than it ever was and will only get worse.

Have you actually read any Marx?

 

[Onionman]

@ChilcoSaint As the poster has openly admitted that this post was intended to offend, rather than putting a like to this post, shouldn't you as a mod be reminding the poster of the forum terms of service and rules? You know like you do when someone posts something you don't agree with.

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You agree to not use the Service to submit or link to any Content which is defamatory, abusive, hateful, threatening, spam or spam-like, likely to offend, contains adult or objectionable content, contains personal information of others, risks copyright infringement, encourages unlawful activity, or otherwise violates any laws.

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It's the bloody woke brigade again, trying to cancel people who offend them. Snowflakes, the lot of 'em.

 

[StJabbo1]

It's the bloody woke brigade again, trying to cancel people who offend them. Snowflakes, the lot of 'em.

Oh dear does that mean Jesus doesn't want me for a sunbeam anymore?

 

[It'sOnlyAGame]

A warning about future behaviour would be enough or maybe a thread ban like Billy got for something similar.