Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Willhoops]

I do hope you’re joining our World Cup boycott, Wills……

I am, but hardly martyring myself as I’m not all that bothered about internationals anymore.

 

[Staines R's]

I am, but hardly martyring myself as I’m not all that bothered about internationals anymore.

Good lad….to be honest I’m gonna hate boycotting as I do enjoy the WC usually and get well into once it’s started.
But principles and all that…..

 

[sb_73]

The thing is, we as human beings will never evolve to purge evil from our inner self and will go on and on repeating the same behaviours…even though we inherently know those behaviours are immoral.

You only have to look at the appalling treatment of so called “collaborators” in Kherson, that is strikingly similar to the way that some people were treated in liberated Paris at the end of WW2.

We will never learn

You believe that all people are inherently evil? Hobbes v Rousseau philosophy thread starter for 10!

 

[Staines R's]

You believe that all people are inherently evil? Hobbes v Rousseau philosophy thread starter for 10!

Just my thoughts that yes it is in us all. I mean take all the atrocities I mentioned…these were educated, outwardly decent people who were given free range and then went on to commit the most appalling crimes.

Daughter is doing her Psychology and Sociology A level and I find it all really interesting and try to talk to her about it when she isn’t watching Tik-Tok…failing mostly.

Haven’t heard of the Philosophy thing you mention but will look it up when I can…sounds interesting

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

The thing is, we as human beings will never evolve to purge evil from our inner self and will go on and on repeating the same behaviours…even though we inherently know those behaviours are immoral.

You only have to look at the appalling treatment of so called “collaborators” in Kherson, that is strikingly similar to the way that some people were treated in liberated Paris at the end of WW2.

We will never learn

Yes, but I make a distinction between a disgruntled crowd throwing punches at collaborators, and chambers where innocent civilians wait their turn to be tortured to death starting with electrification of their genitals.

 

[Staines R's]

Yes, but I make a distinction between a disgruntled crowd throwing punches at collaborators, and chambers where innocent civilians wait their turn to be tortured to death starting with electrification of their genitals.

Hardly throwing punches.

Assault, battery, torture and probable execution……where’s the difference ?

 

[sb_73]

Just my thoughts that yes it is in us all. I mean take all the atrocities I mentioned…these were educated, outwardly decent people who were given free range and then went on to commit the most appalling crimes.

Daughter is doing her Psychology and Sociology A level and I find it all really interesting and try to talk to her about it when she isn’t watching Tik-Tok…failing mostly.

Haven’t heard of the Philosophy thing you mention but will look it up when I can…sounds interesting

Hobbes was a 17th century English philosopher who argued that basic selfish nature of man makes it essential that we enter into a social contract and let ourselves be governed, ie we won’t cooperate or be altruistic unless we are told to. His preference was for absolute sovereigns. Sometimes misrepresented as ‘all men are evil’. Without government or hierarchy he felt

”In such condition, there is no place for industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving, and removing, such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.”
Hobbes 1651


Rousseau was an 18th century Swiss/French philosopher who had a rather different take…..
“The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said 'This is mine', and found people naïve enough to believe him, that man was the true founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody.”

— Rousseau 1754

The two have been pitted against each other, rather artificially I think, in classrooms for decades if not longer. I prefer Rousseau of course but I don’t think there are absolute answers to these questions, no ‘one size fits all’ cheat sheet. Some people are inherently evil - they have personality disorders and there aren’t many of them. Most people are not, in my view, but circumstances, ignorance, environment, being in the receiving end of evil, and fear can induce them to do evil things, we have the capacity. We also have the capacity to stand back and let evil happen without challenging it, much more common I fear. Most people spend their lives without having faced these circumstances, thankfully.

Have a read on the Milgram experiments if you want to see how easily people are led.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Hardly throwing punches.

Assault, battery, torture and probable execution……where’s the difference ?

Where did you get that from? I have read prosecution, jail and fines. If there was any hint of torture, I would think NATO would take exception to it.

 

[Staines R's]

Where did you get that from? I have read prosecution, jail and fines. If there was any hint of torture, I would think NATO would take exception to it.

Daily Mail online a couple of days ago……a row of beaten collaborators “awaiting their fate”.
Somehow don’t think they were gonna be forgiven and let off…..maybe you do ?

 

[Willhoops]

Hobbes was a 17th century English philosopher who argued that basic selfish nature of man makes it essential that we enter into a social contract and let ourselves be governed, ie we won’t cooperate or be altruistic unless we are told to. His preference was for absolute sovereigns. Sometimes misrepresented as ‘all men are evil’. Without government or hierarchy he felt

”In such condition, there is no place for industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving, and removing, such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.”
Hobbes 1651


Rousseau was an 18th century Swiss/French philosopher who had a rather different take…..
“The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said 'This is mine', and found people naïve enough to believe him, that man was the true founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody.”

— Rousseau 1754

The two have been pitted against each other, rather artificially I think, in classrooms for decades if not longer. I prefer Rousseau of course but I don’t think there are absolute answers to these questions, no ‘one size fits all’ cheat sheet. Some people are inherently evil - they have personality disorders and there aren’t many of them. Most people are not, in my view, but circumstances, ignorance, environment, fear can induce them to do evil things, we have the capacity. We also have the capacity to stand back and let evil happen without challenging it, much more common I fear. Most people spend their lives without having faced these circumstances, thankfully.

Have a read on the Milgram experiments if you want to see how easily people are led.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Altruism isn’t possible.. well only if a good act is done by mistake.

 

[Staines R's]

Hobbes was a 17th century English philosopher who argued that basic selfish nature of man makes it essential that we enter into a social contract and let ourselves be governed, ie we won’t cooperate or be altruistic unless we are told to. His preference was for absolute sovereigns. Sometimes misrepresented as ‘all men are evil’. Without government or hierarchy he felt

”In such condition, there is no place for industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving, and removing, such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.”
Hobbes 1651


Rousseau was an 18th century Swiss/French philosopher who had a rather different take…..
“The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said 'This is mine', and found people naïve enough to believe him, that man was the true founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody.”

— Rousseau 1754

The two have been pitted against each other, rather artificially I think, in classrooms for decades if not longer. I prefer Rousseau of course but I don’t think there are absolute answers to these questions, no ‘one size fits all’ cheat sheet. Some people are inherently evil - they have personality disorders and there aren’t many of them. Most people are not, in my view, but circumstances, ignorance, environment, fear can induce them to do evil things, we have the capacity. We also have the capacity to stand back and let evil happen without challenging it, much more common I fear. Most people spend their lives without having faced these circumstances, thankfully.

Have a read on the Milgram experiments if you want to see how easily people are led.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Very interesting…will definitely read up on this.

 

[Steelmonkey]

Hobbes was a 17th century English philosopher who argued that basic selfish nature of man makes it essential that we enter into a social contract and let ourselves be governed, ie we won’t cooperate or be altruistic unless we are told to. His preference was for absolute sovereigns. Sometimes misrepresented as ‘all men are evil’. Without government or hierarchy he felt

Interesting stuff. The bit about absolute monarchy is very true in the Arab world - those nations with a Sovereign ruler seem to be by far the most stable, and therefore most successful in that region. Maybe certain cultures are more reverential to Royal families than others...

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Daily Mail online a couple of days ago……a row of beaten collaborators “awaiting their fate”.
Somehow don’t think they were gonna be forgiven and let off…..maybe you do ?

I think the Ukraine authorities will prosecute them, and NATO will look on.

 

[Staines R's]

I think the Ukraine authorities will prosecute them, and NATO will look on.

Yeah ‘cos mob rule would never take over. You’re living in fantasy land mate

 

[Steelmonkey]

Daily Mail online a couple of days ago……a row of beaten collaborators “awaiting their fate”.
Somehow don’t think they were gonna be forgiven and let off…..maybe you do ?

All very innocent looking, nothing to see here

More bloody-faced 'collaborators' are paraded with eyes covered and hands tied in Kherson after locals accused them of helping Putin's troops during Ukraine invasion

By Christian Oliver For

Mailonline15:57 16 Nov 2022, updated 09:06 17 Nov 2022

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comments

• More collaborators were rounded up after Ukrainian troops entered Kherson
• The men appeared to be detained with their hands bound and eyes covered
• Many who collaborated with Russians have fled the city in the past few weeks
• Fears there may still be some Russian forces present in city and wider region

Ukrainians suspected of collaborating with Russia have continued to be rounded up and confronted by residents in Kherson.

Images appear to show collaborators filed against a wall and displayed for residents as their hands are bound and eyes covered with tape.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11435275/amp/More-bloody-faced-collaborators-paraded-eyes-covered-hands-tied-Kherson.html

Collaborators' held as Russia leaves a city of booby traps: Angry locals in Kherson confront men as they are tied to lampposts after being accused of helping Vladimir Putin's troops during Ukraine invasion

By Andy Jehring

For The Daily Mail22:31 13 Nov 2022, updated 05:36 14 Nov 2022

You must log in or register to see images

• Two collaborators rounded up yesterday after Ukrainian troops entered Kherson
• Many who collaborated with Russians have fled the city in the past few weeks
• Fears there may still be some Russian forces present in city and surroundings
• Ukrainians dealing with huge devastation and booby traps left by fleeing forces

Tied to posts, two suspected collaborators are confronted by residents in Kherson.

They were rounded up after Ukrainian troops swept into the southern city following the Russian evacuation.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11423809/amp/Two-collaborators-tied-lamppost-Kherson-accused-helping-Putins-troops.html

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Yeah ‘cos mob rule would never take over. You’re living in fantasy land mate

Ukraine want to join the EU and NATO. Do you honestly think they'd risk this with a string of extra judicial killings?

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

All very innocent looking, nothing to see here

More bloody-faced 'collaborators' are paraded with eyes covered and hands tied in Kherson after locals accused them of helping Putin's troops during Ukraine invasion

By Christian Oliver For

Mailonline15:57 16 Nov 2022, updated 09:06 17 Nov 2022

You must log in or register to see images

comments

• More collaborators were rounded up after Ukrainian troops entered Kherson
• The men appeared to be detained with their hands bound and eyes covered
• Many who collaborated with Russians have fled the city in the past few weeks
• Fears there may still be some Russian forces present in city and wider region

Ukrainians suspected of collaborating with Russia have continued to be rounded up and confronted by residents in Kherson.

Images appear to show collaborators filed against a wall and displayed for residents as their hands are bound and eyes covered with tape.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11435275/amp/More-bloody-faced-collaborators-paraded-eyes-covered-hands-tied-Kherson.html

Collaborators' held as Russia leaves a city of booby traps: Angry locals in Kherson confront men as they are tied to lampposts after being accused of helping Vladimir Putin's troops during Ukraine invasion

By Andy Jehring

For The Daily Mail22:31 13 Nov 2022, updated 05:36 14 Nov 2022

You must log in or register to see images

• Two collaborators rounded up yesterday after Ukrainian troops entered Kherson
• Many who collaborated with Russians have fled the city in the past few weeks
• Fears there may still be some Russian forces present in city and surroundings
• Ukrainians dealing with huge devastation and booby traps left by fleeing forces

Tied to posts, two suspected collaborators are confronted by residents in Kherson.

They were rounded up after Ukrainian troops swept into the southern city following the Russian evacuation.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11423809/amp/Two-collaborators-tied-lamppost-Kherson-accused-helping-Putins-troops.html

I saw this. No mention of torture chambers or extra-judicial killings.

 

[Staines R's]

All very innocent looking, nothing to see here

More bloody-faced 'collaborators' are paraded with eyes covered and hands tied in Kherson after locals accused them of helping Putin's troops during Ukraine invasion

By Christian Oliver For

Mailonline15:57 16 Nov 2022, updated 09:06 17 Nov 2022

You must log in or register to see images

comments

• More collaborators were rounded up after Ukrainian troops entered Kherson
• The men appeared to be detained with their hands bound and eyes covered
• Many who collaborated with Russians have fled the city in the past few weeks
• Fears there may still be some Russian forces present in city and wider region

Ukrainians suspected of collaborating with Russia have continued to be rounded up and confronted by residents in Kherson.

Images appear to show collaborators filed against a wall and displayed for residents as their hands are bound and eyes covered with tape.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11435275/amp/More-bloody-faced-collaborators-paraded-eyes-covered-hands-tied-Kherson.html

Collaborators' held as Russia leaves a city of booby traps: Angry locals in Kherson confront men as they are tied to lampposts after being accused of helping Vladimir Putin's troops during Ukraine invasion

By Andy Jehring

For The Daily Mail22:31 13 Nov 2022, updated 05:36 14 Nov 2022

You must log in or register to see images

• Two collaborators rounded up yesterday after Ukrainian troops entered Kherson
• Many who collaborated with Russians have fled the city in the past few weeks
• Fears there may still be some Russian forces present in city and surroundings
• Ukrainians dealing with huge devastation and booby traps left by fleeing forces

Tied to posts, two suspected collaborators are confronted by residents in Kherson.

They were rounded up after Ukrainian troops swept into the southern city following the Russian evacuation.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11423809/amp/Two-collaborators-tied-lamppost-Kherson-accused-helping-Putins-troops.html

Im sure they will all be forgiven and welcomed back into the fold

 

[Staines R's]

I saw this. No mention of torture chambers or extra-judicial killings.

So what do you think will happen then ?

 

[Stroller]

Hobbes was a 17th century English philosopher who argued that basic selfish nature of man makes it essential that we enter into a social contract and let ourselves be governed, ie we won’t cooperate or be altruistic unless we are told to. His preference was for absolute sovereigns. Sometimes misrepresented as ‘all men are evil’. Without government or hierarchy he felt

”In such condition, there is no place for industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving, and removing, such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.”
Hobbes 1651


Rousseau was an 18th century Swiss/French philosopher who had a rather different take…..
“The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said 'This is mine', and found people naïve enough to believe him, that man was the true founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody.”

— Rousseau 1754

The two have been pitted against each other, rather artificially I think, in classrooms for decades if not longer. I prefer Rousseau of course but I don’t think there are absolute answers to these questions, no ‘one size fits all’ cheat sheet. Some people are inherently evil - they have personality disorders and there aren’t many of them. Most people are not, in my view, but circumstances, ignorance, environment, being in the receiving end of evil, and fear can induce them to do evil things, we have the capacity. We also have the capacity to stand back and let evil happen without challenging it, much more common I fear. Most people spend their lives without having faced these circumstances, thankfully.

Have a read on the Milgram experiments if you want to see how easily people are led.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

All I remember about Hobbes is that he was fond if his dram.