Off Topic Politics Thread

[Schad]

I am genuinely "wow" about Ian's post. And not in a good way.

There also might be reason to question the numbers, but on the question of whether it's responsible from a humanitarian perspective to continue to resist, it's worth remembering that Russia has forcibly deported somewhere between several hundred thousand and 2.5 million people from Ukraine to Siberia in an attempt to make the place more hospitable for the Russians. Also generally known as ethnic cleansing. And that, in my books, is not a sort of 'peace' worth maintaining.

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[Archers Road]

The question remains, though: what does one do when someone has already declared war on you? What is the route to avoid a war that one side is intent on prosecuting, and indeed has already begun prosecuting? Simply declaring that war is bad (I don't disagree!) is highly unlikely to sway the party that is rolling tanks into your land and believes that it has a decisive advantage.

No, it doesn’t answer the question, because it’s not an easy question to answer. Unless you are a total pacifist, then it’s simple. Im not sure I have the moral courage to fully adopt that position myself, but I’ll offer a quote from Ghandi; and if you’re tempted to dismiss one of the 20th Century’s greatest men as a hopeless idealist, remember that he worked tirelessly, fearlessly, and non-violently, to liberate his own country from occupation by a foreign power.

“History is a record of perpetual war; but we are trying to create new history.”

 

[Schad]

No, it doesn’t answer the question, because it’s not an easy question to answer. Unless you are a total pacifist, then it’s simple. Im not sure I have the moral courage to fully adopt that position myself, but I’ll offer a quote from Ghandi; and if you’re tempted to dismiss one of the 20th Century’s greatest men as a hopeless idealist, remember that he worked tirelessly, fearlessly, and non-violently, to liberate his own country from occupation by a foreign power.

“History is a record of perpetual war; but we are trying to create new history.”

The struggle for Indian independence took a century, and occurred in large part as a side-effect of violence: namely, the weakening of the British Empire by WWII.

Should Ukraine allow itself to be subjugated, systematically looted and ethnically cleansed for a century in the hopes that events elsewhere naturally brought their subjugation to a close?

 

[Ian Thumwood]

Quite shocked by the facts coming out regarding the killing of Chris Kaba in London who was apparently unarmed. Seems like the lessons regarding Mark Duggan have not been learned. Not surprising that black people fear and try to flee the Met police as they realise they are likely to get plugged. I think we are getting used to this by now and something radical needs to be done to ensure we have a police force that serves the people and if not effectively carrying out extra-judicial killings.

Surprisng too that no one here has commented on the matter of the Met's strip and search policy for minors which would be bad in all cases but which shockingly also disproportionately targets the black community. Channel Four carried out a report on this last month and came to some quite shocking conclusions insofar that proper, supervised searches were not caried out in a significant number of cases and in many instances where the children being searched were later found to be totally innocent.

I was reading calls on line yesterday where there some good arguments presented for the Met to be dissolved and you wonder if this latest shooting will turn out to be defining.

 

[Archers Road]

The struggle for Indian independence took a century, and occurred in large part as a side-effect of violence: namely, the weakening of the British Empire by WWII.

Should Ukraine allow itself to be subjugated, systematically looted and ethnically cleansed for a century in the hopes that events elsewhere naturally brought their subjugation to a close?

Again, there are no simple answers. I’m not telling Ukraine what it should do; the Ukraine government has decided on behalf of it’s people, what it wants them to do. But as ever in war, the greatest sacrifice will be made not by the warriors rushing to die in a frenzy of patriotism, covering themselves in superficial glory; it will be the common people, the civilians, the mothers burying sons, and fatherless children, Ukrainian and Russian, who will count the cost when this is all over.

And so it goes on, century after century, because we are seemingly incapable of learning this simple lesson from history; that in war, the victor only seems to win. In truth, everyone loses, and in the ashes of one conflict, the seeds of the next are born. As the seeds of Stalingrad were sown at Versailles, and the seeds of this conflict in Ukraine were sown amongst all the broken promises made to Mikhael Gorbachev, by the victorious powers at the end of the Cold War.

 

[Ian Thumwood]

The struggle for Indian independence took a century, and occurred in large part as a side-effect of violence: namely, the weakening of the British Empire by WWII.

Should Ukraine allow itself to be subjugated, systematically looted and ethnically cleansed for a century in the hopes that events elsewhere naturally brought their subjugation to a close?

Schad

You have been very vocal in your hostility towards Russia and I was wondering how you would ensivage resolving the situation given that you seem to feel anything that might be construed as being appeasing to them is unacceptable. I cannot see any form of conclusion without a compromise which is likely to be unpalable to all parties. In six months the West has thearted the Russian thrust through Ukraine and effectively prevented it from being over-run. However, beyond this all it has achieved is to make Ukraine even less viable as a function state than it would have been under occupation and crippled the Western economy. If the West was serious about preventing Russian occupation, it should have struck before te invasion itself or when the Russian army was stranded en route ti Kiev. I do not think the West has been serious about challenging Ukraine as much as you would argue. I honestly don't think that a rturn to the situation before February is possible.

 

[Ian Thumwood]

Again, there are no simple answers. I’m not telling Ukraine what it should do; the Ukraine government has decided on behalf of it’s people, what it wants them to do. But as ever in war, the greatest sacrifice will be made not by the warriors rushing to die in a frenzy of patriotism, covering themselves in superficial glory; it will be the common people, the civilians, the mothers burying sons, and fatherless children, Ukrainian and Russian, who will count the cost when this is all over.

And so it goes on, century after century, because we are seemingly incapable of learning this simple lesson from history; that in war, the victor only seems to win. In truth, everyone loses, and in the ashes of one conflict, the seeds of the next are born. As the seeds of Stalingrad were sown at Versailles, and the seeds of this conflict in Ukraine were sown amongst all the broken promises made to Mikhael Gorbachev, by the victorious powers at the end of the Cold War.

I would add that the opportunities after the Cold war were equally squandered by Yeltsin.

 

[Schad]

Again, there are no simple answers. I’m not telling Ukraine what it should do; the Ukraine Gove has decided on behalf of it’s people, what it wants them to do. As ever in war, the greatest sacrifice will be made not by the warriors rushing to die in a frenzy of patriotism, covering themselves in superficial glory; it will be the common people, the civilians, the motherless sons and fatherless children, Ukrainian and Russian, who will count the cost when this is all over.

And so it goes on, century after century, because we are seemingly incapable of learning this simple lesson from history; that in war, the victor only seems to win. In truth, everyone loses, and in the ashes of one conflict, the seeds of the next are born, as the seeds of Stalingrad were sown at Versailles, and the seeds of this conflict in Ukraine were sown amongst all the broken promises made to Mikhael Gorbachev, by the victorious powers at the end of the Cold War.

Few if anyone is doubting the costs. It's just that many, foremost among them the Ukrainians themselves, are well aware of the costs of subjugation, as well. Again: Russia has forcibly deported huge numbers of civilians. Ukraine claims 2.5 million. Russia says it's only about 1.2 million who have been 'evacuated' (against their will). You're acting as if fighting back is causing atrocities to occur. Russia is causing atrocities to occur, and they began the second the crossed the border. Because the intent from day one has been to ethnically cleanse Ukraine and reintegrate it back into Russia.

 

[Schad]

Schad

You have been very vocal in your hostility towards Russia and I was wondering how you would ensivage resolving the situation given that you seem to feel anything that might be construed as being appeasing to them is unacceptable.

I feel like allowing Russia to conquer Ukrainian territory and hold its civilians in de facto gulags to be unacceptable, indeed.

I cannot see any form of conclusion without a compromise which is likely to be unpalable to all parties.

Absolutely. A compromise will be reached. And that compromise should ideally involve Russia controlling little or no Ukrainian territory, whereas the 'compromise' had Russia been allowed to overrun Ukraine would have been that they'd pinkie swear not to conquer anyone else.

In six months the West has thearted the Russian thrust through Ukraine and effectively prevented it from being over-run. However, beyond this all it has achieved is to make Ukraine even less viable as a function state than it would have been under occupation and crippled the Western economy.

It has not made Ukraine less viable as a functional state. It has allowed for the possibility of Ukraine existing as a state, period.

It has not crippled the Western economy. It has caused mild harm.

Also, since when did the left put economic growth over human rights and self-determination?

If the West was serious about preventing Russian occupation, it should have struck before te invasion itself or when the Russian army was stranded en route ti Kiev. I do not think the West has been serious about challenging Ukraine as much as you would argue. I honestly don't think that a rturn to the situation before February is possible.

The West was not going to strike Russia directly. Additionally, there's a very simple reason why they didn't arm Ukraine to the teeth prior to the war: the West and Ukraine were trying to avoid the war! Ukraine chose not to fully mobilize even when they had been warned that Russia was intent on declaring war because they did not want to be seen as escalating.

 

[Shandy_top_89]

One of the reasons we still, after all these centuries, have not evolved past war as a means of resolving disputes, is that too many people are unable to control their emotions, and allow themselves to be driven by anger - anger which they always, whichever side they are on, consider to be justified.

I would argue that Ukraine is being driven by far more than just anger.

Although their anger is completely and absolutely justified.

They have no choice in this matter but to fight.

 

[It'sOnlyAGame]

Quite shocked by the facts coming out regarding the killing of Chris Kaba in London who was apparently unarmed. Seems like the lessons regarding Mark Duggan have not been learned. Not surprising that black people fear and try to flee the Met police as they realise they are likely to get plugged. I think we are getting used to this by now and something radical needs to be done to ensure we have a police force that serves the people and if not effectively carrying out extra-judicial killings.

Surprisng too that no one here has commented on the matter of the Met's strip and search policy for minors which would be bad in all cases but which shockingly also disproportionately targets the black community. Channel Four carried out a report on this last month and came to some quite shocking conclusions insofar that proper, supervised searches were not caried out in a significant number of cases and in many instances where the children being searched were later found to be totally innocent.

I was reading calls on line yesterday where there some good arguments presented for the Met to be dissolved and you wonder if this latest shooting will turn out to be defining.

Your first paragraph is a view of events by someone trying to use racism to conceal possible criminal activity. In truth, at this moment there are very few facts available from the incident. The only fact that appears to have been corroborated is that there was no gun found in the car. The police's reasoning for stopping the car was that it was linked to a firearms incident in the previous days. A witness to the tactical contact has said Kaba was driving the car at the Police after being given a chance to get out of the car. https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/man-hospital-being-shot-south-005124794.html Of course that may not be accurate but it's another version to what happened rather than the "execution" that you appear to favour.
Using Mark Duggan as an example of lessons to be learnt is derisory. The Police version of events were conflicted to say the least but Mark Duggan was connected to drug gangs and violence. He was also one of the targets in Operation Dibri which was focussing on a spike in gun related incidents in London.
On the day he died Police suspected that he was carrying a gun to use in a planned revenge attack in Tottenham. There was indeed a gun in the taxi he was in when stopped. Anyone who carries a gun whether they are about to use it or not risks losing their life and quite rightly in my view the Police are not going to take any chances.
It seems odd to me that many in the black community would prefer to live among gun and knife users and call racism at every opportunity rather than have the Police deal with them.

 

[davecg69]

Eh? Nobody is suggesting taking the war into, or invading Russia?!

"As I implied yesterday, I feel that the aggression will stop as soon as former states of the USSR are encompassed in to the Russian sphere of influence.:

****ing hell, Ian. You think that's a reasonable position to take? Let's just hand back all the Baltic states etc?

I think my Estonian and Latvian friends would be REALLY happy to hear that. I can see them fighting tooth and nail for their freedom. As we would here. I think, Ian, you would realise that appeasement doesn’t work. As you may recall, letting some Austrian colonel have Czechoslovakia didn’t exactly stop him from wanting more …..
Sadly, as Putin likes to wave his dick around and point out that he has nukes and, apparently, is barking mad enough to use them, the way this conflict is going is the only way. Hopefully, as the grind continues and life in Russia gets worse, there may be more of a backlash than they can handle. I can only hope and pray …..

 

[StJabbo1]

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[Schad]

On "Ukraine should just submit itself"...they've achieved a rather remarkable breakthrough in the east of the country, and are in a position now to make most of Russia's front lines in the Kharkiv region completely untenable.

War is an awful, terrible thing, and right now the best way to minimize suffering is frankly for Ukraine to win it.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

On "Ukraine should just submit itself"...they've achieved a rather remarkable breakthrough in the east of the country, and are in a position now to make most of Russia's front lines in the Kharkiv region completely untenable.

War is an awful, terrible thing, and right now the best way to minimize suffering is frankly for Ukraine to win it.

Nice bit of animation illustrating exactly that. If they can capture the railway junction at Kupiansk, which they are very close to doing, it severs the supply line for the Russian forces completely. Reports from the advancing Ukraine troops say they are finding large amounts of Russian ammunition and other equipment simply abandoned.

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[Schad]

Nice bit of animation illustrating exactly that. If they can capture the railway junction at Kupiansk, which they are very close to doing, it severs the supply line for the Russian forces completely. Reports from the advancing Ukraine troops say they are finding large amounts of Russian ammunition and other equipment simply abandoned.

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They're moving so quickly that the open-source intel folks can't keep up, heh. There's reportedly 15,000 Russian troops* south of Kupyansk on the Izyum sector of the front, and it appears that they're now basically all cut off save for a narrow corridor (basically E/SE along the front lines) that may be quickly closing.

*At least that was the estimate prior to this offensive. It's entirely possible that the Russians simply have far fewer troops remaining than was assumed. Which means they're in greater trouble than was assumed...

 

[West Kent Saint]

This is really moving.

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[Schad]

Note also that the people greeting them are Russian speakers. Whatever connection the Russian-speaking Ukrainians in the east and south of the country had with Russia prior to this war, it's been clear pretty well from day one that they were no happier about the invasion than the Ukrainian-speaking west.

 

[ChilcoSaint]

Sorry to change the subject, but this is well worth a watch, by Abbey Heffer. Self-explanatory:

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[Archers Road]

On "Ukraine should just submit itself"...they've achieved a rather remarkable breakthrough in the east of the country, and are in a position now to make most of Russia's front lines in the Kharkiv region completely untenable.

War is an awful, terrible thing, and right now the best way to minimize suffering is frankly for Ukraine to win it.

No one wins wars. That’s the point you seem to be missing. The cycle of violence only ever ends with a negotiated settlement acceptable to both sides, and if you think NATO expansion up to The Don will ever be acceptable to Russia, under any leader, you are deluding yourself.