Off Topic NHS CHILDREN's trans gender identity clinic shut down

[Darth Plagueis]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62335665

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...n-giving-puberty-blockers-children-tavistock/

Thank the lord. Now kids can't be given ridiculous drugs (puberty blockers) and treatments for this issue, and instead will be referred for mental health support.

No issues on this **** being done to adults, do whatever the **** you want to yourself as an adult, just not to kids.

Kids should not be given hormones/drugs to reassign their gender, they should be given mental health support, and wait until they're old enough to understand the decisions their making.

The fact that such a place existed disgusts me.

Sanity prevails! **** puberty blockers.

This **** is unnatural.

P.S. Nothing against people being Trans-gender, but the way it's being handled is ****ing insane sometimes.

 

[Albert's Chip Shop]

I agree totally here Tash.
If you need to be an adult to buy a pint why shouldn't you be an adult to decide on something as major as this.
The soft woke ****s in this world can go cry into their vegan juice.

 

[GodAlmighty]

I agree totally here Tash.
If you need to be an adult to buy a pint why shouldn't you be an adult to decide on something as major as this.
The soft woke ****s in this world can go cry into their vegan juice.

This 1 billion %

 

[JakartaToon]

I agree totally here Tash.
If you need to be an adult to buy a pint why shouldn't you be an adult to decide on something as major as this.
The soft woke ****s in this world can go cry into their vegan juice.

It wouldn’t be major in your case.

 

[Heed]

Do you get the feeling this is one bit sociology project, with kids being the subjects.
Shades of Mengele in all of this.
That's me Cancelled.

 

[G4rdToonArmy]

If you need to be an adult to buy a pint why shouldn't you be an adult to decide on something as major as this.

Agreed - Do what you want once you are old enough and mature enough to really understand the long term consequences of what you are doing. Letting a 12/13/14 year olds decide what they want in 6/10/20 years time is madness.

 

[haslam]

To play devil's advocate here for a moment...

It's easy to sit on the sidelines and proclaim what you believe to be correct but the reality is that these issues are time sensitive. Waiting until after puberty means the person's body will have changed in ways which are either impossible to reverse or would require major surgery. I'm sure you can appreciate how frustrating that would be for someone who knew their mind - being forced to go through puberty of the opposite gender.

At 13 someone can be deemed competent enough to refuse life saving medical treatment so I don't see why they would be deemed unable to know their gender.

 

[Prince Isak (GG)]

To play devil's advocate here for a moment...

It's easy to sit on the sidelines and proclaim what you believe to be correct but the reality is that these issues are time sensitive. Waiting until after puberty means the person's body will have changed in ways which are either impossible to reverse or would require major surgery. I'm sure you can appreciate how frustrating that would be for someone who knew their mind - being forced to go through puberty of the opposite gender.

At 13 someone can be deemed competent enough to refuse life saving medical treatment so I don't see why they would be deemed unable to know their gender.

That’s the thing though. If it’s life saving then that isn’t a choice. Even a mental choice. It’s a simple there is no choice really.

A gender choice at a child age shouldn’t really be a choice at all. Their choice is that they are what they are.

Do you think a dying child in Africa who was born into extreme poverty and has no food. Who is sometimes raised to be a toy has a choice.

I feel like we have come to far down the road here in the evolution of life.

What happened to god made us wonderful for what we are. Both mentally and physically.

 

[Prince Isak (GG)]

To play devil's advocate here for a moment...

It's easy to sit on the sidelines and proclaim what you believe to be correct but the reality is that these issues are time sensitive. Waiting until after puberty means the person's body will have changed in ways which are either impossible to reverse or would require major surgery. I'm sure you can appreciate how frustrating that would be for someone who knew their mind - being forced to go through puberty of the opposite gender.

At 13 someone can be deemed competent enough to refuse life saving medical treatment so I don't see why they would be deemed unable to know their gender.

And also what if they don’t have the capacity to actually make the choice but they do so. And it ruins their lives.

They then can say that their peers have let them down because they let them choose.

This notion of choices at that age is absurdly misguided. Crikey when I was 13 if my parents had let me choose what I wanted I wouldn’t be alive today.

 

[JakartaToon]

I think it should come down to whether a psychiatrist deems that they are capable of making that decision. Think this should apply at any age tbh and presume it does if this is being done on the NHS.

As science develops I am sure we will be faced with all sorts of difficult ethical decisions about balancing what we can do and what we should do:
1) we currently abort foetuses because we have the ability to detect early signs of debilitating illness - don’t think many would disagree with that
2) we have the ability to build another life by cloning but research is currently on hold due to ethical issues
3) presumably we will eventually be able to understand why some people suffer from gender dysmorphia. If we can detect this in a foetus is it then ethical to change the sex of the baby by early in-uterus hormone therapy?
Sure its unnatural to carry out gender reassignment treatment but so are a lot of treatments we can now carry out. It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t carry on doing them though.

 

[Darth Plagueis]

I think it should come down to whether a psychiatrist deems that they are capable of making that decision. Think this should apply at any age tbh and presume it does if this is being done on the NHS.

As science develops I am sure we will be faced with all sorts of difficult ethical decisions about balancing what we can do and what we should do:
1) we currently abort foetuses because we have the ability to detect early signs of debilitating illness - don’t think many would disagree with that
2) we have the ability to build another life by cloning but research is currently on hold due to ethical issues
3) presumably we will eventually be able to understand why some people suffer from gender dysmorphia. If we can detect this in a foetus is it then ethical to change the sex of the baby by early in-uterus hormone therapy?
Sure its unnatural to carry out gender reassignment treatment but so are a lot of treatments we can now carry out. It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t carry on doing them though.

I don't like committing appeal to nature fallacies but sometimes I think we're tampering with nature way too much.

I think the healthy middle ground is to wait until someone is of adult age before making the decision.

Allowing children to make that decision for themselves at ****ing 12 years old is ridiculous.

Who knew who they were, what they wanted at 12 years old?

I've seen plenty of cases of people who said if they were allowed to make that decision they'd have killed themselves as an adult.

Are people seriously saying that if we don't let kids do this to themselves that they'll never find happiness?

 

[JakartaToon]

I don't like committing appeal to nature fallacies but sometimes I think we're tampering with nature way too much.

I think the healthy middle ground is to wait until someone is of adult age before making the decision.

Allowing children to make that decision for themselves at ****ing 12 years old is ridiculous.

Who knew who they were, what they wanted at 12 years old?

I've seen plenty of cases of people who said if they were allowed to make that decision they'd have killed themselves as an adult.

Are people seriously saying that if we don't let kids do this to themselves that they'll never find happiness?

I take your point but I just think that the ones who are wanting this done early are the ones who really feel committed to doing it anyway and who will suffer severely if they have to go though puberty, as I would guess that would be the most difficult times of their life for them. I suspect that it would impact as much on their mental health by forcing them to go through puberty as a gender they don't feel comfortable with so would suspect that the suicide rates would be just as high. I presume its much easier to treat them with hormone blockers to stop onset of puberty than to try and reverse the process once they have been through it.

Its a difficult one, which is why I say leave it to the pyschiatrists to sort out, rather than putting laws in place.

 

[Darth Plagueis]

I take your point but I just think that the ones who are wanting this done early are the ones who really feel committed to doing it anyway and who will suffer severely if they have to go though puberty, as I would guess that would be the most difficult times of their life for them. I suspect that it would impact as much on their mental health by forcing them to go through puberty as a gender they don't feel comfortable with so would suspect that the suicide rates would be just as high. I presume its much easier to treat them with hormone blockers to stop onset of puberty than to try and reverse the process once they have been through it.

Its a difficult one, which is why I say leave it to the pyschiatrists to sort out, rather than putting laws in place.

Absolutely. The middle ground is that. Offer them good mental health support during this time, don't do anything medical until adulthood.

 

[JakartaToon]

Absolutely. The middle ground is that. Offer them good mental health support during this time, don't do anything medical until adulthood.

Unless the psychiatrist says that in their opinion the best option is early treatment.

 

[Darth Plagueis]

Unless the psychiatrist says that in their opinion the best option is early treatment.

I still don't think it should be up to them. A psychiatrist is a mental health professional, not a doctor. They may have more understanding of the brain than the psychologist, but that's only to help prescribe their own medications regarding mental health disorders/illnesses.

I don't think a mental health professional should be authorizing such treatments.

No one in this situation can see that persons future and what's best for them long term, and I think the cons far outweigh the pro's in allowing children to have medical procedures done to them that could awful long term negative impacts on them, when it is not a necessary medical procedure, just something to reinforce a personal preference.

That sort of risk should only be taken by an adult, not a child.

 

[JakartaToon]

I still don't think it should be up to them. A psychiatrist is a mental health professional, not a doctor. They may have more understanding of the brain than the psychologist, but that's only to help prescribe their own medications regarding mental health disorders/illnesses.

I don't think a mental health professional should be authorizing such treatments.

No one in this situation can see that persons future and what's best for them long term, and I think the cons far outweigh the pro's in allowing children to have medical procedures done to them that could awful long term negative impacts on them, when it is not a necessary medical procedure, just something to reinforce a personal preference.

That sort of risk should only be taken by an adult, not a child.

A psychiatrist is a doctor. They just specialise in mental health. Surely this is a mental health issue.

 

[Darth Plagueis]

A psychiatrist is a doctor. They just specialise in mental health. Surely this is a mental health issue.

Not specifically. It's mental and physical. The puberty blockers and other medications/surgeries associated with gender transitioning is more about your body.

It's changes to the body to impact the mind.

Likely a psychiatrist will work GP's and other doctors.

 

[haslam]

For anyone who genuinely wants to know about processes then a good link for the UK is here : https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/

But the key take away is that this isn'[t just a decision a kid just makes one morning and they're in surgery the next day. There's a lot of assumptions being made which don't quite reflect how the situations are handled. Note in the part below how many medical and alliaed medical professionals are involved, the timescales and then the likely outcomes. None of these things are authorised by "a" medical professional, it's a team of highly qualified people working with the affected parties and their family to come to a reasoned conclusion. Honestly, I don't really see how I or any other individual can argue with whatever they decide:

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As regards the "too young" argument I assume everyone on the thread was an adult before they knew their sexuality and gender?

 

[Darth Plagueis]

For anyone who genuinely wants to know about processes then a good link for the UK is here : https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/

But the key take away is that this isn'[t just a decision a kid just makes one morning and they're in surgery the next day. There's a lot of assumptions being made which don't quite reflect how the situations are handled. Note in the part below how many medical and alliaed medical professionals are involved, the timescales and then the likely outcomes. None of these things are authorised by "a" medical professional, it's a team of highly qualified people working with the affected parties and their family to come to a reasoned conclusion. Honestly, I don't really see how I or any other individual can argue with whatever they decide:

You must log in or register to see images

As regards the "too young" argument I assume everyone on the thread was an adult before they knew their sexuality and gender?

I never really questioned mine.

But yes I think they're too young to make decisions surrounding having surgery and drugs that may have life long impacts on them that may be irreversible.

Allowing a child to make a decision of that level of gravity is ridiculous.

Until they're old enough they'll get mental health support, and that should be good enough until they become an adult.