Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Uber_Hoop]

You said the Yanks started acting in their own interests in those states

Did I say these states left the Soviet Union because the Yanks convinced them to do so?

I said the Russians were OK with these states having independence, but (poorly articulated) that such independence should come with alignment with Russia, but THEN the Americans started to dabble. I suspect everybody started to dabble, quite frankly.

I think it wholly reasonable to examine and ask questions about what has been going on and how we’ve got to this point. Fact is, none of us on here know an iota of what really has gone on. We can only read & listen to stuff and form an opinion, and we can change our opinions as we read and listen to more stuff. Or we can choose not to. We have that luxury.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

Just a wee bit of sarcasm - seems it's infectious around here

I’ve recently been reading an awful lot of history, my appetite whetted by Hitchens’ book on WW2, and it’s depressing to see how similar circumstances have led to hostilities again and again throughout time.

Mark Twain was right when he suggested anybody running for public office ought to be disqualified for that reason alone.

 

[Staines R's]

If you're interested, and you probably aren't, the four part documentary on BBC4 about Putin that's on at the moment makes interesting viewing....and they seem to have a similar viewpoint. Made in 2012, prior to Crimean intervention, it goes a long way to showing how Putin wanted to join the west in it's fight against Jihadists as he was having his own issues with the Chechens, but the US wanted total control and started to prickle his feathers - leading to where we are today...

Absolutly this……We wanted to pick our dictators to get into bed with and we in the west must take some blame at least for where we are now.
Geo-politics is far more complex than good against evil.

 

[Staines R's]

I'm absolutely sure that everything bad that happens in the world today is the fault of "the Yanks"/"the West"/Ourselves etc.
I wake up every single day feeling thoroughly guilty for being born here.





Sarcasm intended.

But in your world Col…..it just seems us in the West can only do good.
We have a lot to be very proud of…however it would be naive in the extreme, to not at least acknowledge the often appalling history of abuse that we have carried out. Both overtly and covertly.

 

[Staines R's]

Did I say these states left the Soviet Union because the Yanks convinced them to do so?

I said the Russians were OK with these states having independence, but (poorly articulated) that such independence should come with alignment with Russia, but THEN the Americans started to dabble. I suspect everybody started to dabble, quite frankly.

I think it wholly reasonable to examine and ask questions about what has been going on and how we’ve got to this point. Fact is, none of us on here know an iota of what really has gone on. We can only read & listen to stuff and form an opinion, and we can change our opinions as we read and listen to more stuff. Or we can choose not to. We have that luxury.

It would be very naive to say that certain elements in the West did not have at least some kind of involvement in the 2014……but I can probably think of at least a couple on here who might deny it

And of course I would totally acknowledge the fact that Russia and Putin certainly had influence on Ukrainian affairs before that time……it would again be naive not to.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Did I say these states left the Soviet Union because the Yanks convinced them to do so?

I said the Russians were OK with these states having independence, but (poorly articulated) that such independence should come with alignment with Russia, but THEN the Americans started to dabble. I suspect everybody started to dabble, quite frankly.

I think it wholly reasonable to examine and ask questions about what has been going on and how we’ve got to this point. Fact is, none of us on here know an iota of what really has gone on. We can only read & listen to stuff and form an opinion, and we can change our opinions as we read and listen to more stuff. Or we can choose not to. We have that luxury.

"The Yanks started to dabble." What does that mean? The ex Soviet states had seen civilians in the West leading free lives in comparative affluence. Free trade, EU subsidies. That's a lot of what drew them.

Agree, totally reasonable to look back. The history around Gorbachev, Thatcher and Reagan is well documented. Plenty to form a view on imo.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

"The Yanks started to dabble." What does that mean? The ex Soviet states had seen civilians in the West leading free lives in comparative affluence. Free trade, EU subsidies. That's a lot of what drew them.

Agree, totally reasonable to look back. The history around Gorbachev, Thatcher and Reagan is well documented. Plenty to form a view on imo.

As I understand it, the Americans have sought to influence the leadership of certain of these states, as I’m sure have the Russians and others, much like there have been suggestions of ‘dabbling’ in UK elections (by the Russians) and in South American (by the US and probably others).

Hey, I’m only suggesting this has taken place (from the scant stuff I’ve read) and that Russian perception that it has taken place has not helped matters.

Who wouldn’t want the freedoms of the West (although these are diminishing) over what life was like in the USSR.

(The actions of other interests can go a little way in explaining how baddies rise to prominence, but should never provide the excuse.)

 

[Steelmonkey]

It would be very naive to say that certain elements in the West did not have at least some kind of involvement in the 2014……but I can probably think of at least a couple on here who might deny it

And of course I would totally acknowledge the fact that Russia and Putin certainly had influence on Ukrainian affairs before that time……it would again be naive not to.

Putins fingers are all over the rigged elections in Ukraine in 2004 which led to the Orange Revolution, including the poisoning of Viktor Yushchenko, the opposition candidate

But the Western partners, especially the US, were certainly pulling strings too. And their over-staying their welcome in Georgia was a slap in the face for Putin too

 

[Uber_Hoop]

Absolutly this……We wanted to pick our dictators to get into bed with and we in the west must take some blame at least for where we are now.
Geo-politics is far more complex than good against evil.

I was watching another ‘untold’ story of the Falklands War the other day and how we courted Pinochet to house a listening station and radar detection capabilities on a Pacific (yes, Pacific) island territory of Chile to give early warning of Argentinian aircraft heading to the Falklands. Another example of One Evil Regime: Good, Another Evil Regime: Bad.

Of course, Thatcher’s position on Pinochet is well documented and maybe this partly explains why it was so.

 

[Staines R's]

I was watching another ‘untold’ story of the Falklands War the other day and how we courted Pinochet to house a listening station and radar detection capabilities on a Pacific (yes, Pacific) island territory of Chile to give early warning of Argentinian aircraft heading to the Falklands. Another example of One Evil Regime: Good, Another Evil Regime: Bad.

Of course, Thatcher’s position on Pinochet is well documented and maybe this partly explains why it was so.

Again couldn’t agree more. I find it appalling that some like to portray us in the West as the good guys, knights in shining army who will travel the world to stamp out evil wherever we find it….while absolutely failing to acknowledge the fact that we have allowed, and at times encouraged , other obscene evils and atrocities, all because it suits our agenda at the time……Thatcher/Pinochet is a prime example…..as well as many more in Latin America.
On a human level…..it’s just plain wrong

 

[Uber_Hoop]

Again couldn’t agree more. I find it appalling that some like to portray us in the West as the good guys, knights in shining army who will travel the world to stamp out evil wherever we find it….while absolutely failing to acknowledge the fact that we have allowed, and at times encouraged , other obscene evils and atrocities, all because it suits our agenda at the time……Thatcher/Pinochet is a prime example…..as well as many more in Latin America.
On a human level…..it’s just plain wrong

I can understand that unpalatable policies and alliances may sometimes be in our interests though, Stainsey. I only wish we’d be more honest about it, instead of (in the case of some of our leaders of the past) pretending to be piously ethical. I guess if we declined to trade and have good relations with every country that did things we didn’t approve of, we’d only be trading with the Isle of Wight now.

 

[bobmid]

So do you declare any income from your share of any foreign income then bob

I dont have any foreign income kiwi

 

[kiwiqpr]

I dont have any foreign income kiwi

Good man
Nothing to see here
Move along

 

[kiwiqpr]

I can understand that unpalatable policies and alliances may sometimes be in our interests though, Stainsey. I only wish we’d be more honest about it, instead of (in the case of some of our leaders of the past) pretending to be piously ethical. I guess if we declined to trade and have good relations with every country that did things we didn’t approve of, we’d only be trading with the Isle of Wight now.

Dig deep enough and probably not them either

 

[rangercol]

But in your world Col…..it just seems us in the West can only do good.
We have a lot to be very proud of…however it would be naive in the extreme, to not at least acknowledge the often appalling history of abuse that we have carried out. Both overtly and covertly.

None of which I've actually said of course.
In fact I've very often acknowledged the West's wrong doings and also this Country's too.

 

[Staines R's]

None of which I've actually said of course.
In fact I've very often acknowledged the West's wrong doings and also this Country's too.

I must have missed that Col.

 

[rangercol]

I must have missed that Col.

Course you did mate.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

But in your world Col…..it just seems us in the West can only do good.
We have a lot to be very proud of…however it would be naive in the extreme, to not at least acknowledge the often appalling history of abuse that we have carried out. Both overtly and covertly.

I've not seen anyone suggest the West is anything like perfect, Stainsey. But one party doesn't have to be perfect in order for someone to come down its side - or the opposite.

In 1919, the reparations in The Treaty of Versailles treated Germany very harshly - but it didn't stop the civilised world rightly condemning the Nazis later.

 

[sb_73]

An Englishman, an American and an Indian walk into a bar.

‘Usual Mr Sunak?’ asks the barman.

 

[sb_73]

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