Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Staines R's said:
Great article.
I think he somewhat downplays the Russian “dislike” of the Ukrainian “hero” Stepan Bandera”……who was awarded the title Hero of Ukraine (later rescinded) and has a street named after him in Kiev, along with many monuments and a museum to his memory in Western Ukraine. In 2019, Lviv city council named it the “Year of Stepan Bandera”
A Ukrainian ultra nationalist, second in command of the OUN, who was a Nazi collaborator, fascist and anti-Semite who openly stated that Jews and Poles had no place in a sovereign Ukraine state. He was later imprisoned in Sachenhausen concentration camp after falling out with the Nazis when they failed to recognise an independent Ukraine.
He was assassinated by the KGB in 1959.

Of course I expect everyone on here knows of his history and legacy.
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Indeed. For a Sunday column I guess he was limited to how much he could expand upon. However, he has been pretty much on the money as far as Ukraine is concerned for some years. Some examples:

PETER HITCHENS: Beware of this nation steeped in blood and carpeted with graves | Daily Mail Online

"Svoboda (Freedom) is led by Oleh Tyahnybok. He was once expelled from the Kiev parliament for claiming that a ‘Muscovite-Jewish Mafia’ controlled the country. Charming, eh? Kiev was the scene, in 1941, of the Babi Yar massacre of 30,000 Jews by German troops. Many of the more fervent Ukrainian nationalists, especially those from the Western city of Lviv, are keen worshippers of the memory of a character called Stepan Bandera, who collaborated with the Nazis on and off between 1941 and 1945."

As Ukrainians force Russians to turn their back on their language and change their names, I ask, is this the world's most absurd city? - Mail Online - Peter Hitchens blog (mailonsunday.co.uk)

"One particular annoyance is the hero-worship of the Forties Ukrainian partisan Stepan Bandera. Soviet history dismissed him as a ruthless brigand and Nazi collaborator. Most modern Russians agree. But the last President of Ukraine, Viktor Yushchenko, had Bandera proclaimed a national hero, as popular among Russians here as an IRA parade would be in Protestant Antrim."
 
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Stroller said:
Well I didn't. I found Hitchens's piece very informative.

As you've said, the situation is far from black and white.
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It's as black and white as 5 to 141, the UN vote.

It is of course really important to understand the Russian position, which seems to have the support of the Russian people, and all the Russian commentators I have heard confirm this. But the Russian military was not the way to resolve this. And incidentally, I don't trust Hitchens. He's a contrary journalist. He likes to take a different position on a number of topics so he has the cerebral challenge of arguing a bad case.
 
Goldhawk-Road said:
It's as black and white as 5 to 141, the UN vote.

It is of course really important to understand the Russian position, which seems to have the support of the Russian people, and all the Russian commentators I have heard confirm this. But the Russian military was not the way to resolve this. And incidentally, I don't trust Hitchens. He's a contrary journalist. He likes to take a different position on a number of topics so he has the cerebral challenge of arguing a bad case.
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I didn't say that the invasion was justified, and nor does Hitchens. I'm no fan of his either, but he's provided some background that I wasn't aware of, that's all.
 
Uber_Hoop said:
Indeed.


As Ukrainians force Russians to turn their back on their language and change their names, I ask, is this the world's most absurd city? - Mail Online - Peter Hitchens blog (mailonsunday.co.uk)

"One particular annoyance is the hero-worship of the Forties Ukrainian partisan Stepan Bandera. Soviet history dismissed him as a ruthless brigand and Nazi collaborator. Most modern Russians agree. But the last President of Ukraine, Viktor Yushchenko, had Bandera proclaimed a national hero, as popular among Russians here as an IRA parade would be in Protestant Antrim."
Click to expand...

Surely that's the wrong analogy.

A better one would be Ireland after gaining its independence from the UK, making the Irish language the primary language, and English a regional language and making Michael Collins a national hero.

And then the English people in Ireland object, and the UK sends the British Army into Ireland to take it over for upsetting the English.
 
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Goldhawk-Road said:
It's as black and white as 5 to 141, the UN vote.

It is of course really important to understand the Russian position, which seems to have the support of the Russian people, and all the Russian commentators I have heard confirm this. But the Russian military was not the way to resolve this. And incidentally, I don't trust Hitchens. He's a contrary journalist. He likes to take a different position on a number of topics so he has the cerebral challenge of arguing a bad case.
Click to expand...

The accusation that he’s a contrarian is a frequent one. Interesting that he’s maintained a consistent point of view on Ukraine for at least the past 8 years when many people now sporting blue & yellow avatars likely couldn’t find the country on a map.

I don’t agree with everything that he writes about, but what is clear to me is that he’s not a deliberate contrarian.

[I’d be interested in any examples as to when he argued a bad case for the sake of it. The only one I can think of is possibly when there was the MMR controversy, although I’d need to remind myself as to what his position was at the time.]
 
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Goldhawk-Road said:
Surely that's the wrong analogy.

A better one would be Ireland after gaining its independence from the UK, making the Irish language the primary language, and English a regional language and making Michael Collins a national hero.

And then the English people in Ireland object, and the UK sends the British Army into Ireland to take it over for upsetting the English.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I agree.
 
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Stroller said:
Well I didn't. I found Hitchens's piece very informative.

As you've said, the situation is far from black and white.
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That’s part of the problem I feel Strolls……many people (and I’m not referring to yourself) don’t or aren’t willing to look at things from a different angle and want to paint things as black and white, which they very rarely are.
 
Uber_Hoop said:
Indeed. For a Sunday column I guess he was limited to how much he could expand upon. However, he has been pretty much on the money as far as Ukraine is concerned for some years. Some examples:

PETER HITCHENS: Beware of this nation steeped in blood and carpeted with graves | Daily Mail Online

"Svoboda (Freedom) is led by Oleh Tyahnybok. He was once expelled from the Kiev parliament for claiming that a ‘Muscovite-Jewish Mafia’ controlled the country. Charming, eh? Kiev was the scene, in 1941, of the Babi Yar massacre of 30,000 Jews by German troops. Many of the more fervent Ukrainian nationalists, especially those from the Western city of Lviv, are keen worshippers of the memory of a character called Stepan Bandera, who collaborated with the Nazis on and off between 1941 and 1945."

As Ukrainians force Russians to turn their back on their language and change their names, I ask, is this the world's most absurd city? - Mail Online - Peter Hitchens blog (mailonsunday.co.uk)

"One particular annoyance is the hero-worship of the Forties Ukrainian partisan Stepan Bandera. Soviet history dismissed him as a ruthless brigand and Nazi collaborator. Most modern Russians agree. But the last President of Ukraine, Viktor Yushchenko, had Bandera proclaimed a national hero, as popular among Russians here as an IRA parade would be in Protestant Antrim."
Click to expand...

Hitchens has hit the nail firmly on the head.
 
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Uber_Hoop said:
The accusation that he’s a contrarian is a frequent one. Interesting that he’s maintained a consistent point of view on Ukraine for at least the past 8 years when many people now sporting blue & yellow avatars likely couldn’t find the country on a map.

I don’t agree with everything that he writes about, but what is clear to me is that he’s not a deliberate contrarian.
Click to expand...

I'd say he is a deliberate contrarian over this, Ubes, because of his continuous pro Russian stance. I had a look at Wiki over the language thing, and it's clear the Ukraine Parliament was trying to be reasonable, making the Ukranian language primary, and Russian language a regional one to satisfy the Russian citizens. That was not good enough for Putin.
 
Goldhawk-Road said:
I'd say he is a deliberate contrarian over this, Ubes, because of his continuous pro Russian stance. I had a look at Wiki over the language thing, and it's clear the Ukraine Parliament was trying to be reasonable, making the Ukranian language primary, and Russian language a regional one to satisfy the Russian citizens. That was not good enough for Putin.
Click to expand...

He isn’t pro-Russian.
 
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Uber_Hoop said:
The accusation that he’s a contrarian is a frequent one. Interesting that he’s maintained a consistent point of view on Ukraine for at least the past 8 years when many people now sporting blue & yellow avatars likely couldn’t find the country on a map.

I don’t agree with everything that he writes about, but what is clear to me is that he’s not a deliberate contrarian.

[I’d be interested in any examples as to when he argued a bad case for the sake of it. The only one I can think of is possibly when there was the MMR controversy, although I’d need to remind myself as to what his position was at the time.]
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I mentioned the Blue/Yellow avatar thing previously……virtue signalling at its very best/worse
 
Uber_Hoop said:
I’ll not fight that one, Stainsey. I’m sure individual people do such things for a variety of personal reasons: comfort, solidarity, empathy, virtue signalling and others. Whatever boats their float.
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People do it ‘cos they have to have a cause and show their virtue more than someone else. This week is Ukraine, last week a rainbow, a while back France…. Next week it’ll be something else……it’s where we are as a society….we have to show “we care”
 
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Staines R's said:
People do it ‘cos they have to have a cause and show their virtue more than someone else. This week is Ukraine, last week a rainbow, a while back France…. Next week it’ll be something else……it’s where we are as a society….we have to show “we care”
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I’m sure that’s true for some, Stainsey. But I’m not confident in applying that to all. There are some people I know that are now actively fundraising for refugees, sending parcels, organising collection centres etc. They just want to feel they’re doing something because they feel empathy for the plight of the myriad innocents caught up in such things. If it makes them feel good about themselves in the process then I suppose it’s a win-win.
 
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Uber_Hoop said:
I’m sure that’s true for some, Stainsey. But I’m not confident in applying that to all. There are some people I know that are now actively fundraising for refugees, sending parcels, organising collection centres etc. They just want to feel they’re doing something because they feel empathy for the plight of the myriad innocents caught up in such things. If it makes them feel good about themselves in the process then I suppose it’s a win-win.
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Absolutely mate…..there are some who actually get off their backsides and actively help raise funds and goods to help people in need…..and others who change their avatar or Facebook photo to a Ukrainian flag.
I know the ones I admire
 
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