Off Topic International Break Thread

[humanbeingincroydon]

Which part of this team do you think is selected on the same basis as the ‘golden generation’ team was? He’s stayed loyal to Pickford and Sterling and been rewarded with them having strong tournaments, looked likely to have resisted calls to start TAA before injury intervened, didn’t rush Henderson back into a starting position, dropped Foden after a lack of impact, and has used Grealish sparingly (arguably too much so) when so many wanted him to start every game. Southgate seems to be still very much his own man, which I was afraid he was slipping away from before this tournament.

I don’t agree with all his calls - I think he relies too much on Mount, who works hard and is intelligent but doesn’t show his qualities in the same way he does at Chelsea, and I’d like to see him continue to integrate the likes of Sancho, Foden and Grealish into the team over the next year (not all at the same time of course). But Southgate remains the opposite of England managers of this century who were terrified of the backlash that would come in the squad and the media if they didn’t find a way to fit certain players in, and too late, found this to be to the detriment of the team.

He’s building a team of players who respond to his demands, who have been on a journey together, and who he hopes will continue to step up each time a tournament comes around. England before this felt like 11 players lumped together. This group feel like a team. Long may that continue.

The way that Sterling has become undroppable no matter how anonymous he is in games, which is mirroring similar handling of the likes of Beckham and Rooney in the past, is certainly starting to become noticeable especially in games where he disappears once the national anthems are done yet never gets subbed off

Trying to crowbar Walker and one of James/Tripper/TAA into the team certainly sails close to the wind of having players picked, while also mirroring how Scotland have been trying to play Robertson and Tierney in the team at the same time for the past 2-3 years

But what really mirrors the "Golden Generation" issues isn't the players he does pick, but the ones who seem to be nailed to the bench: Calvert-Lewin, Watkins, Ward-Prowse and White are always the ones to miss the cut or, if they make the cut, get less time on the pitch than the remote control car bringing on the ball, and that is certainly something that was always happening when the usual cliques were getting picked (and, as PNP said, the likelihood is that Ward-Prowse will suddenly be good enough to play for England if he moved to one of The Usual Suspects, which is certainly something that remains since the "Golden Generation" era when you see players go from not being picked to the starting team once they signed for Man Utd or Arsenal and then never picked again when they left)

 

[The Huddlefro]

The way that Sterling has become undroppable no matter how anonymous he is in games, which is mirroring similar handling of the likes of Beckham and Rooney in the past, is certainly starting to become noticeable especially in games where he disappears once the national anthems are done yet never gets subbed off

Trying to crowbar Walker and one of James/Tripper/TAA into the team certainly sails close to the wind of having players picked, while also mirroring how Scotland have been trying to play Robertson and Tierney in the team at the same time for the past 2-3 years

But what really mirrors the "Golden Generation" issues isn't the players he does pick, but the ones who seem to be nailed to the bench: Calvert-Lewin, Watkins, Ward-Prowse and White are always the ones to miss the cut or, if they make the cut, get less time on the pitch than the remote control car bringing on the ball, and that is certainly something that was always happening when the usual cliques were getting picked (and, as PNP said, the likelihood is that Ward-Prowse will suddenly be good enough to play for England if he moved to one of The Usual Suspects, which is certainly something that remains since the "Golden Generation" era when you see players go from not being picked to the starting team once they signed for Man Utd or Arsenal and then never picked again when they left)

I think it’s clear we see Sterling in a different way here. I agree that based on his performances towards the end of the season at City, his inclusion was debatable, but he carried us through the group stages and was a key factor in our knockout games too. It’s not like Southgate has stuck with a player who hasn’t produced the goods for him in the past, Sterling has been an important player and rightly has credit in the bank. Persisting with him has got us to a final.

I agree the RBs situation was a bit weird and I think TAA’s injury did Southgate a favour. But Walker as a RCB in a back 3 has worked several times for England and I can see why Southgate picks that on occasion.

I wouldn’t want to criticise his selection of Maguire and Stones in this tournament as they’ve been excellent but I do think that he needs to take a serious look at White and maybe some alternative backups to Kane in friendlies and perhaps even some of the qualifiers over the coming years. JWP I definitely agree with you on, I’d have liked to have seen him in the squad given how leggy Henderson looked and Bellingham’s age. I don’t think he’d have started as Rice and Phillips had good tournaments but he can control a game and his set piece delivery would have been nice to have situationally given the strength England have displayed from them in the past. I don’t buy the ‘usual suspects’ bit though, it’s nowhere near the factor it used to be. I can only assume there were other factors as to why JWP didn’t get a spot, as Southgate knows the player well and has given game time to players from Spurs, Leeds, Everton and Villa this tournament, none of whom are amongst the most successful teams right now.

 

[yossarian]

Interesting article
https://football-italia.net/bonucci-the-english-motivated-me-a-special-dedication-to-paolo-rossi/

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Interesting article
https://football-italia.net/bonucci-the-english-motivated-me-a-special-dedication-to-paolo-rossi/

There's been a really weird projection of arrogance and feeling of false victimhood from the Italians throughout.
Anyone supporting their team is tainted by the accusation and booing the anthem is sacrilege, despite their own fans doing the same to Spain.
They've been hailed from all corners for the whole competition, yet you'd think that they were Greece in 2004.

 

[littleDinosaurLuke]

I think it’s clear we see Sterling in a different way here. I agree that based on his performances towards the end of the season at City, his inclusion was debatable, but he carried us through the group stages and was a key factor in our knockout games too. It’s not like Southgate has stuck with a player who hasn’t produced the goods for him in the past, Sterling has been an important player and rightly has credit in the bank. Persisting with him has got us to a final.

I agree the RBs situation was a bit weird and I think TAA’s injury did Southgate a favour. But Walker as a RCB in a back 3 has worked several times for England and I can see why Southgate picks that on occasion.

I wouldn’t want to criticise his selection of Maguire and Stones in this tournament as they’ve been excellent but I do think that he needs to take a serious look at White and maybe some alternative backups to Kane in friendlies and perhaps even some of the qualifiers over the coming years. JWP I definitely agree with you on, I’d have liked to have seen him in the squad given how leggy Henderson looked and Bellingham’s age. I don’t think he’d have started as Rice and Phillips had good tournaments but he can control a game and his set piece delivery would have been nice to have situationally given the strength England have displayed from them in the past. I don’t buy the ‘usual suspects’ bit though, it’s nowhere near the factor it used to be. I can only assume there were other factors as to why JWP didn’t get a spot, as Southgate knows the player well and has given game time to players from Spurs, Leeds, Everton and Villa this tournament, none of whom are amongst the most successful teams right now.

I said similar about Ward-Prowse. He's the ONLY midfield player in and around the squad with any sort of creativity, including his excellent set piece delivery.
Southgate went with Rice and Philips for virtually every minute of the tournament. Neither offered much creativilty although Philips started well with the assist for Sterling v Croatia. I'm sure Ward-Prowse could have been an option in the squad ahead of White or Coady, who never got a kick and were never likely to unless there were injuries. With Mings as cover and Walker playing often in a back three, I'm not sure what two extra central defenders offered - although some uncertainty over Maguire's match fitness was an issue at the outset.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

I think it’s clear we see Sterling in a different way here. I agree that based on his performances towards the end of the season at City, his inclusion was debatable, but he carried us through the group stages and was a key factor in our knockout games too. It’s not like Southgate has stuck with a player who hasn’t produced the goods for him in the past, Sterling has been an important player and rightly has credit in the bank. Persisting with him has got us to a final.

I agree the RBs situation was a bit weird and I think TAA’s injury did Southgate a favour. But Walker as a RCB in a back 3 has worked several times for England and I can see why Southgate picks that on occasion.

I wouldn’t want to criticise his selection of Maguire and Stones in this tournament as they’ve been excellent but I do think that he needs to take a serious look at White and maybe some alternative backups to Kane in friendlies and perhaps even some of the qualifiers over the coming years. JWP I definitely agree with you on, I’d have liked to have seen him in the squad given how leggy Henderson looked and Bellingham’s age. I don’t think he’d have started as Rice and Phillips had good tournaments but he can control a game and his set piece delivery would have been nice to have situationally given the strength England have displayed from them in the past. I don’t buy the ‘usual suspects’ bit though, it’s nowhere near the factor it used to be. I can only assume there were other factors as to why JWP didn’t get a spot, as Southgate knows the player well and has given game time to players from Spurs, Leeds, Everton and Villa this tournament, none of whom are amongst the most successful teams right now.

The problem with keeping a player on the pitch for what they did earlier in the tournament is that it can cause a rabbit in the headlights situation, as if a player disappears from a match a coach ends up between a rock and a hard place, because if they hook the player yet don't get the result they will get it in the neck from all corners. In the case of Sterling in the final, he was so invisible that Southgate forgot who he was when picking the penalty takers which led to Saka taking one

The problem with fielding both Walker and Trippier is that, for the final at least, it played a large hand in England surrendering 2/3 of the pitch for the majority of the match due to the 3ATB formation - and once Italy got hold of the game they weren't letting go of it. Obviously not the only thing, after all a pivot of Rice/Phillips works for defending a 1-0 lead but is useless when you've surrendered that lead and the opponents are in the ascendancy (and replacing Rice with Henderson wasn;t going to fix that)

In terms of Ward-Prowse this is somewhere else Southgate seems to be weakening, because whenever he wanted to bring on a midfielder who can control the game he always defaults to Grealish, which does have me wondering if that's connected to the weird fetishisation that football Twitter had of Grealish during the tournament that made out he was Gerrard, Robson and Gascoigne rolled into one, which the press were also doing in the leadup to the tournament, and given how Mount is one of his Undroppables, Foden is getting hyped to kingdom come too, and him playing a Rice/Phillips pivot all tournament the only way JWP can break into the England team is if he "upgrades" his shirt at club level, and that's problematic

In terms of the players from unfashionable clubs, it's also worth mentioning how often those players are linked with the fashionable ones, which makes their selection seem somewhat less benign
Rice has been consistently linked with Chelsea since late last season
Grealish has been linked with both Manc clubs since the start of last season
Trippier's been linked with a move to Man Utd this summer
Sancho has been on Man Utd's radar for well over a year, given they lowballed Dortmund last summer
Kane's had Skyte Sports try and drag him to the Etihad since the end of last season

Kane and Trippier are likely coincidental, but the rest...well, that does seem a little too coincidental

 

[BobbyD]

The problem with keeping a player on the pitch for what they did earlier in the tournament is that it can cause a rabbit in the headlights situation, as if a player disappears from a match a coach ends up between a rock and a hard place, because if they hook the player yet don't get the result they will get it in the neck from all corners. In the case of Sterling in the final, he was so invisible that Southgate forgot who he was when picking the penalty takers which led to Saka taking one

The problem with fielding both Walker and Trippier is that, for the final at least, it played a large hand in England surrendering 2/3 of the pitch for the majority of the match due to the 3ATB formation - and once Italy got hold of the game they weren't letting go of it. Obviously not the only thing, after all a pivot of Rice/Phillips works for defending a 1-0 lead but is useless when you've surrendered that lead and the opponents are in the ascendancy (and replacing Rice with Henderson wasn;t going to fix that)

In terms of Ward-Prowse this is somewhere else Southgate seems to be weakening, because whenever he wanted to bring on a midfielder who can control the game he always defaults to Grealish, which does have me wondering if that's connected to the weird fetishisation that football Twitter had of Grealish during the tournament that made out he was Gerrard, Robson and Gascoigne rolled into one, which the press were also doing in the leadup to the tournament, and given how Mount is one of his Undroppables, Foden is getting hyped to kingdom come too, and him playing a Rice/Phillips pivot all tournament the only way JWP can break into the England team is if he "upgrades" his shirt at club level, and that's problematic

In terms of the players from unfashionable clubs, it's also worth mentioning how often those players are linked with the fashionable ones, which makes their selection seem somewhat less benign
Rice has been consistently linked with Chelsea since late last season
Grealish has been linked with both Manc clubs since the start of last season
Trippier's been linked with a move to Man Utd this summer
Sancho has been on Man Utd's radar for well over a year, given they lowballed Dortmund last summer
Kane's had Skyte Sports try and drag him to the Etihad since the end of last season

Kane and Trippier are likely coincidental, but the rest...well, that does seem a little too coincidental

Is Ward Prowse even any good? Not sure what this fascination with him is apart from he can whip in a good set piece. Always seems like an average player. Sort of like David Bentley but with even less flair but better set pieces.

 

[The Huddlefro]

The problem with keeping a player on the pitch for what they did earlier in the tournament is that it can cause a rabbit in the headlights situation, as if a player disappears from a match a coach ends up between a rock and a hard place, because if they hook the player yet don't get the result they will get it in the neck from all corners. In the case of Sterling in the final, he was so invisible that Southgate forgot who he was when picking the penalty takers which led to Saka taking one

The problem with fielding both Walker and Trippier is that, for the final at least, it played a large hand in England surrendering 2/3 of the pitch for the majority of the match due to the 3ATB formation - and once Italy got hold of the game they weren't letting go of it. Obviously not the only thing, after all a pivot of Rice/Phillips works for defending a 1-0 lead but is useless when you've surrendered that lead and the opponents are in the ascendancy (and replacing Rice with Henderson wasn;t going to fix that)

In terms of Ward-Prowse this is somewhere else Southgate seems to be weakening, because whenever he wanted to bring on a midfielder who can control the game he always defaults to Grealish, which does have me wondering if that's connected to the weird fetishisation that football Twitter had of Grealish during the tournament that made out he was Gerrard, Robson and Gascoigne rolled into one, which the press were also doing in the leadup to the tournament, and given how Mount is one of his Undroppables, Foden is getting hyped to kingdom come too, and him playing a Rice/Phillips pivot all tournament the only way JWP can break into the England team is if he "upgrades" his shirt at club level, and that's problematic

In terms of the players from unfashionable clubs, it's also worth mentioning how often those players are linked with the fashionable ones, which makes their selection seem somewhat less benign
Rice has been consistently linked with Chelsea since late last season
Grealish has been linked with both Manc clubs since the start of last season
Trippier's been linked with a move to Man Utd this summer
Sancho has been on Man Utd's radar for well over a year, given they lowballed Dortmund last summer
Kane's had Skyte Sports try and drag him to the Etihad since the end of last season

Kane and Trippier are likely coincidental, but the rest...well, that does seem a little too coincidental

While I agree that there’s a line that can be crossed in terms of players living off credit in the bank for too long, Sterling had scored against Croatia, the Czechs and Germany and won the penalty against Denmark. He was our most effective forward all tournament and is also one of the most capped players in that squad. Sterling deserved the chance to come up with the goods for England. The fact he didn’t is on him and I’m sure it’ll be reflected in future decisions. Whether Southgate decided to let Saka take a pen instead of Sterling or Grealish (who says he put himself forward) we may never know but I’d be hesitant to just say he didn’t want it without knowing the whole story.

There wasn’t a lot wrong with Southgate’s starting setup, his failure came when Mancini adapted the formation Italy were playing subtly, which meant Jorginho had more space in midfield and their fullbacks used the space out wide differently. That pushed the English WBs back and like you say made it more of a 5 than 3atb for England. He needed to react to this change quickly and differently and that he didn’t is one of the few blots on his copybook from this tournament.

I don’t buy your theory about unfashionable clubs if I’m honest and JWP has been a PL player for over 250 games and is captain at a club which has been in the PL since 2012. If Grealish, Phillips, Mings and White can get in the squad then there must be other reasons for ignoring a player of his relative experience in the PL compared to the others who have far less experience at that level.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

Is Ward Prowse even any good? Not sure what this fascination with him is apart from he can whip in a good set piece. Always seems like an average player. Sort of like David Bentley but with even less flair but better set pieces.

Three or four years ago I would have agreed, as then he was more often than not used on the wing so the Bentley comparisons were more fitting. The last couple of years have seen him played as a CM, and his end product has noticeably improved for both goals and assists

Personally I've been lowkey saying Ward-Prowse as a player we need for a few years, as I've regularly said we should've gone for him instead of Nkoudou and that gets vindicated more every year - especially after last year where our midfield may as well have brought deckchairs onto the pitch for the second half

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Is Ward Prowse even any good? Not sure what this fascination with him is apart from he can whip in a good set piece. Always seems like an average player. Sort of like David Bentley but with even less flair but better set pieces.

I think he's a very good allrounder. Good passing range, works hard, excellent set-pieces and plays every minute of every game.
I'd happily take him off Southampton's hands. Southgate might want to watch this too, as he can also take a penalty...

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[The Huddlefro]

I think he's a very good allrounder. Good passing range, works hard, excellent set-pieces and plays every minute of every game.
I'd happily take him off Southampton's hands. Southgate might want to watch this too, as he can also take a penalty...

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If I had to speculate why Southgate didn’t take him, I think you have to look at his other midfield options.
Rice - the only real out and out DM in the squad
Philips - perhaps the closest player to JWP, good all rounder who sits in front of the defence and distributes the ball for Leeds, but can be more dynamic too, as he was for England at times
Henderson - probably would have played instead of Phillips if he was actually fully fit, bought for experience as it was, which is fair, considering the other player was…
Bellingham - bought as a bolter and to give him some experience. Not always a fan of doing this at a major tournament (vs for example a Lions tour where there’s more opportunity for players to play their way into the starting tour side) but fair enough

Because you get good set piece delivery from both Trippier and Mount, one of whom is likely to be on the pitch most of the time, as well as having other options, you don’t necessarily need JWP as a set piece specialist. So basically you either take him instead of Henderson’s experience, Bellingham’s ability as an unknown quantity, or Phillips’ all round ability, which I think is the closest match to JWP as a player.

In hindsight I’d have wanted him to go instead of Bellingham but I can’t say I was massively disappointed that he didn’t go at the time and I can see why Southgate made the decision not to take him, as he’s a good all rounder but his specialism was covered by other players in the squad.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

If I had to speculate why Southgate didn’t take him, I think you have to look at his other midfield options.
Rice - the only real out and out DM in the squad
Philips - perhaps the closest player to JWP, good all rounder who sits in front of the defence and distributes the ball for Leeds, but can be more dynamic too, as he was for England at times
Henderson - probably would have played instead of Phillips if he was actually fully fit, bought for experience as it was, which is fair, considering the other player was…
Bellingham - bought as a bolter and to give him some experience. Not always a fan of doing this at a major tournament (vs for example a Lions tour where there’s more opportunity for players to play their way into the starting tour side) but fair enough

Because you get good set piece delivery from both Trippier and Mount, one of whom is likely to be on the pitch most of the time, as well as having other options, you don’t necessarily need JWP as a set piece specialist. So basically you either take him instead of Henderson’s experience, Bellingham’s ability as an unknown quantity, or Phillips’ all round ability, which I think is the closest match to JWP as a player.

In hindsight I’d have wanted him to go instead of Bellingham but I can’t say I was massively disappointed that he didn’t go at the time and I can see why Southgate made the decision not to take him, as he’s a good all rounder but his specialism was covered by other players in the squad.

Should've left out Reece James.
Already had Walker and Trippier, while both White and Coady have played there if he was desperate.
Henderson was nowhere near fit, but he could've still squeezed him this way and not lost anything.

 

[The Huddlefro]

Should've left out Reece James.
Already had Walker and Trippier, while both White and Coady have played there if he was desperate.
Henderson was nowhere near fit, but he could've still squeezed him this way and not lost anything.

Yeah I thought about that too. James is similar to Walker though in terms of being able to play RB or RCB in a 3. And Walker’s flexibility is an important tactical asset to Southgate in being able to switch systems during games while making fewer subs. So I guess the thinking was that Trippier gives you that more technical, attacking option and would only play as a wingback whereas James was there to provide that flexibility if Walker had broken his leg against Croatia.

Again on balance though you’re right - he could have risked not taking direct backup for Walker, or indeed not taken Coady or White, and taken another midfielder. I get why he didn’t though. Shaw and Chilwell can play wingback or fullback comfortably, whereas the right sided options were more specialist. Trippier has improved defensively in Spain but doesn’t have the physical attributes to play RCB like Walker or James.

 

[KingHotspur]

JWP is a decent enough player but not an elite level player and I’m surprised people think he should have been in the squad. There’s a reason he’s still at Southampton and not been linked with the big clubs.

Hopefully by the World Cup next year, Bellingham will have progressed even more and become that technical midfield player we badly need. Also isn’t there talk of Trent ending up in central midfield?

The options are there as I think if England have to resort to JWP then it’s not a good sign.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

So after all the ****e the England fans got up to during the tournament, is it safe to presume FIFA will tell The FA to see if there's room next to the flare to shove their bid for the 2030 World Cup?

 

[KingHotspur]

So after all the ****e the England fans got up to during the tournament, is it safe to presume FIFA will tell The FA to see if there's room next to the flare to shove their bid for the 2030 World Cup?

Last WC was in Russia and next year’s is in Qatar. Fifa can’t be telling us where to go.

 

[yossarian]

Last WC was in Russia and next year’s is in Qatar. Fifa can’t be telling us where to go.

Like the Euros just played, I think FIFA should play future WCs around a particular continent. The extortionate cost of building multiple stadiums, some of which will hardly be used post-tournament makes it economically non-viable for many countries. Contributing a single stadium, on the other hand.....

 

[Citizen Kane.]

Like the Euros just played, I think FIFA should play future WCs around a particular continent. The extortionate cost of building multiple stadiums, some of which will hardly be used post-tournament makes it economically non-viable for many countries. Contributing a single stadium, on the other hand.....

I'd imagine a continental tournament drives supporter expenses through the roof though. England fans had it lucky with this tournament, very lucky. Other nations had to travel to as many as 4 or 5 different countries to see their team play, each venue requiring new accommodation etc. Also the fact that some host venues were in countries that didn't even qualify for the thing (Baku and Bucharest) was an utter nonsense as the venue by default becomes a 'away day' for every single team playing there throughout the competition.

Apart from Europe and the Far East where travel links are excellent and the political situation relatively stable, I can't see it working elsewhere for the sheer impracticality of it all.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

Last WC was in Russia and next year’s is in Qatar. Fifa can’t be telling us where to go.

Russian fans didn't habitually boo anthems or force their way into the stadium for the final, and I don't recall Red Square looking like a post apocalyptic warzone on the day of the final

 

[KingHotspur]

Russian fans didn't habitually boo anthems or force their way into the stadium for the final, and I don't recall Red Square looking like a post apocalyptic warzone on the day of the final

Thats because Putin rules with an iron fist and even the hardcore hooligans knew to be on best behaviour. As a country though, Russia and Qatar both are a lot worse for the important things (human rights, gay rights) than over here.