The way forward

[PowerSpurs]

I'm not saying that Levy hasn't improved the club's overall standing...and that's the point. We're not the club that we were 10, 20 or 30 years ago.

We have an elite stadium. We have an elite training facility. We are one of the 10 richest clubs in the world. We have two of the best forwards in the world...and a chairman who specialises in making the right commercial decisions and picking the wrong manager...over and over again.

We've had our best run of league top 5 finishes ever under Levy. Despite continually having the wrong manager. If you say so.
My opinion is that 90% of managers make no discernible difference, about 5% make things better and 5% make things worse. I would only put Pochettino in the make things better class. Redknapp and Jol had some good effects but left no legacy.

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

My opinion is that 90% of managers make no discernible difference,

I'm sorry but you've jumped the shark here..

 

[remembercolinlee]

Most clubs have gone backwards overall in the last 20 years. We have not. This means Levy has outperformed most Chairmen.

I ain't anti Levy but in order to accurately appraise some one you must look at weaknesses as well as strengths.
His decision making with managers is shocking.

Hoddle was decent at Swindon and good with Chelsea. He did well ish at England. But there were already string issues with his man management by this point.
It was reported that at Swindon and Chelsea that he was poor with the players at times but with England he really showed it with his public treatment of Gascoigne and Beckham and him writing a diary of the 1998 word cup and releasing it while still being the England manager. He was pretty average at best with Southampton and imho was only chosen to curry favour with the fans as he became our new chairman.
Tbh sacking bloke in a coat 2 weeks before the NLD fa cup semi was a poor decision.

Pleat was supposed to be a caretaker manager but remained from September until the end of the season. Appalling lack of planning.

Santini ain't worth discussing.

Jol was excellent but the treatment of him was beyond shocking. I was at the Getafe match and thankfully we fans showed true class that frankly the club shamefully lacked.

Ramos gave us a good league cup quarter final v City when we won despite having 10 men for 70 mins, a brilliant semi final and final. We had a Google of insane games v chelsea and reading. The rest of his tenure was beyond bad.

Redknapp was excellent.

AVB wtf?

Sherwood...see AVB.

Pochettino ... was excellent

JM... see Sherwood and AVB

Levy is solely responsible for those choices ... he has failed on 7 out of 10 appointments so should be removed from making them. If he refuses to stop then he should be removed as chairman.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

Santini ain't worth discussing.

Jol was excellent but the treatment of him was beyond shocking. I was at the Getafe match and thankfully we fans showed true class that frankly the club shamefully lacked.

The one good thing about Santini is the end of his tenure can be accurately described as him walking so Martin Jol could run

 

[PowerSpurs]

I'm sorry but you've jumped the shark here..

A better way of putting my argument is that I can't see any way of getting a sustainable edge in football matters. Every club buys the best players they can afford, tries to hire the best coaching team, tries to select the best youth players etc. The only constant is that the ones with the most money always do best. None of our other Chairmen have recognised this and actually invested in the club to make us more wealthy. Being in London we have the potential to be the wealthiest and therefore the most successful club in the world. That's what Levy is trying to achieve.

 

[Dier Hard]

Levy just simply needs to stay away from footballing decisions in my opinion. His business brain is phenomenal but his football brain isn't too great.

As has been shown, his managerial appointments have largely been failures but luckily for him his few successes have done so well (especially Poch) that to a degree they've more than made up for the failures.

His decisions in the transfer market have been problematic at times too. We all know he tries saving every possible penny when spending yet looks to get every single penny when selling - and in theory that's right but in football sometimes you need your football head to overrule your business head. There have been times where he's refused to meet the asking price or tried to haggle too much that he's been told to do one for players who could've made a huge difference to this club, so much so that paying that extra few £m at the time would've possibly earned him far more in the long run whether it be selling them on for a fortune or them helping Spurs finish in a CL spot and thus gotten the club a windfall.

As @C. Kane said on the matchday thread and something I and others have also mentioned, hiring a DoF as well as a manager who share a clear philosophy and vision for the club, whilst taking away the footballing decisions from Levy, could be the best bit of business the club could do if we want to get back on track. Because whilst over the years Levy's ownership has seen us steer clear from mid-table mediocrity to European football contenders, we're currently sitting in 9th place and looking the closest to mid-table mediocrity we have in a long while.

 

[remembercolinlee]

We've had our best run of league top 5 finishes ever under Levy. Despite continually having the wrong manager. If you say so.
My opinion is that 90% of managers make no discernible difference, about 5% make things better and 5% make things worse. I would only put Pochettino in the make things better class. Redknapp and Jol had some good effects but left no legacy.

You often get me to look at things from a different angle but I genuinely think you are mistaken about Jol and Redknapp.

From 1992 to 2004, our highest league finish was 8th or 9th.

We never had anything to play for past March unless we were still in the FA Cup.

We only qualified for Europe once, in 1999 when we won the league Cup.

Jol took over in late October 2004 and by the end of that season we finished 8th, missing out from Europe on the the last day.
In his next 2 full seasons we finished 5th both times.

The belief in the team and of the fans was hugely different after he left. That was a massive legacy to leave us with.

Redknapp made us believe we could beat the bigger teams ... he again raised the club's ambitions. By time he left
We had finished in top 4 twice.

If he and Jol hadn't left a lasting legacy of belief then we as fans and the club as a whole would have been satisfied with AVBs and Sherwoods reigns.

I would argue that Graham and Ramos left no legacy...they left the excellent memory of winning a trophy but did not take our club further forward than when they joined.

Jol and Redknapp both did.
Whatever mistakes they made both Jol and Redknapp deserve to have their contribution to our modern history recognised and celebrated.

 

[Dier Hard]

Martin Jol built the foundations of what we have today. Without him we may possibly have suffered more years of **** and who knows if we would’ve then enjoyed the same years we did under Redknapp and Poch.

I suppose you could argue he done more for Spurs than even Poch did, because Jol put us back on the map, Poch improved us a hell of a lot and took us the furthest any Prem manager has but that initial rise under Jol was what started our resurgence to being a European side again.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

You often get me to look at things from a different angle but I genuinely think you are mistaken about Jol and Redknapp.

From 1992 to 2004, our highest league finish was 8th or 9th.

We never had anything to play for past March unless we were still in the FA Cup.

We only qualified for Europe once, in 1999 when we won the league Cup.

Jol took over in late October 2004 and by the end of that season we finished 8th, missing out from Europe on the the last day.
In his next 2 full seasons we finished 5th both times.

The belief in the team and of the fans was hugely different after he left. That was a massive legacy to leave us with.

Redknapp made us believe we could beat the bigger teams ... he again raised the club's ambitions. By time he left
We had finished in top 4 twice.

If he and Jol hadn't left a lasting legacy of belief then we as fans and the club as a whole would have been satisfied with AVBs and Sherwoods reigns.

I would argue that Graham and Ramos left no legacy...they left the excellent memory of winning a trophy but did not take our club further forward than when they joined.

Jol and Redknapp both did.
Whatever mistakes they made both Jol and Redknapp deserve to have their contribution to our modern history recognised and celebrated.

The thing is, I do think LAdPCeV-B did leave a legacy - albeit unintentionally

His system had very specific requirements of the players in it, especially in regards to workrate, stamina, and ball retention - and it just so happened that Poch's system had the exact same requirements, but had the added benefit of having somebody in charge who knew how to get the most out of the squad

Compare this to when Jol replaced Santini. On the one hand he did have some players he required, and also improved the team by placing Michael Carrick into the starting xi to reverse Santini's stance of freezing him out in a bid to spite Arnesen because of reasons, although on the other hand he also had to replace the FBs immediately as he wanted players who would bring the ball forward while Santini preferred FBs who basically played as wide CBs and never dared venture into the opposition half

 

[PowerSpurs]

You often get me to look at things from a different angle but I genuinely think you are mistaken about Jol and Redknapp.

From 1992 to 2004, our highest league finish was 8th or 9th.

We never had anything to play for past March unless we were still in the FA Cup.

We only qualified for Europe once, in 1999 when we won the league Cup.

Jol took over in late October 2004 and by the end of that season we finished 8th, missing out from Europe on the the last day.
In his next 2 full seasons we finished 5th both times.

The belief in the team and of the fans was hugely different after he left. That was a massive legacy to leave us with.

Redknapp made us believe we could beat the bigger teams ... he again raised the club's ambitions. By time he left
We had finished in top 4 twice.

If he and Jol hadn't left a lasting legacy of belief then we as fans and the club as a whole would have been satisfied with AVBs and Sherwoods reigns.

I would argue that Graham and Ramos left no legacy...they left the excellent memory of winning a trophy but did not take our club further forward than when they joined.

Jol and Redknapp both did.
Whatever mistakes they made both Jol and Redknapp deserve to have their contribution to our modern history recognised and celebrated.

Perfectly reasonable. I don't expect to be right much more than half the time either. If you examine other clubs in our position in the early 90s, I doubt you'll find many who have hired three really good managers, so if you're right you should be praising Levy!

 

[littleDinosaurLuke]

Pochettino was a cut above for you.

Had he won either the PL or CL in those seasons when there was a real chance, things would be very different now. The impetus and the boost to finances would have enabled him to strengthen the team and push on to the next level - which is being competitive for honours every season.

Mourinho is back at the level of previous managers where CL qualification seems to be the height of any ambition - although Mourinho will hope to sneak a trophy or two, the EL or League Cup as he did with Utd, which buys him time and gives him some kudos.

 

[remembercolinlee]

Perfectly reasonable. I don't expect to be right much more than half the time either. If you examine other clubs in our position in the early 90s, I doubt you'll find many who have hired three really good managers, so if you're right you should be praising Levy!

I have praised him but it doesn't mean I can't also criticise his failings. A 30% success rate of appointing managers is poor imo.

My opinion is that he should back away and let someone else appoint the next manager.

AVB, Sherwood and JM were always the wrong appointments...that's 3 out of 4 in the last 9 years.

That isn't hindsight...many of us criticised all three as they were made or before .

If it is obvious to us then I suspect it was obvious to others at the club and Levy ignored them.

 

[PowerSpurs]

I have praised him but it doesn't mean I can't also criticise his failings. A 30% success rate of appointing managers is poor imo.

My opinion is that he should back away and let someone else appoint the next manager.

AVB, Sherwood and JM were always the wrong appointments...that's 3 out of 4 in the last 9 years.

That isn't hindsight...many of us criticised all three as they were made or before .

If it is obvious to us then I suspect it was obvious to others at the club and Levy ignored them.

The only one of the ten that I would have hired is Pochettino. But I doubt I would have done better on the other nine.
I think if you examine other clubs, you'll find three good ones out of ten is not far off the norm. Of course once we are the richest club in the world we will be able to hire from the A list of managers instead of the second division which is all we've been able to afford up to now...so we've had to take a punt on someone early on in their career or someone who is on thecway down after success.

 

[The RDBD]

Jol took over in late October 2004 and by the end of that season we finished 8th, missing out from Europe on the the last day.
In his next 2 full seasons we finished 5th both times.

The belief in the team and of the fans was hugely different after he left.

BMJ raised the bar.
Daring to fight for a CL slot. Getting regular UEFA participation.
And more importantly, playing in the Spurs style not consistently seen
IMHO since the 80s.

Arry had nowhere to go but up. Which he did (and then some) .
Just as it was for Pochettino.

Which brings us to Jose.
Where is his equivalent of the second season of all the above ??

The second season of Ramos and AVB is a far more fitting comparison.

 

[remembercolinlee]

The only one of the ten that I would have hired is Pochettino. But I doubt I would have done better on the other nine.
I think if you examine other clubs, you'll find three good ones out of ten is not far off the norm. Of course once we are the richest club in the world we will be able to hire from the A list of managers instead of the second division which is all we've been able to afford up to now...so we've had to take a punt on someone early on in their career or someone who is on thecway down after success.

Think you are being generous tbh.

Hoddle was a dangerous gamble and pleat was a season long holding pattern that at one point almost dragged us into a relegation battle.

Think your point holds with santini and Ramos.

AVB, Sherwood and JM were all dangerous gambles.

Jol was highly rated by Arnesen but Levy over ruled him. Redknapp was not much of a gentle having only failed at one club.

Pochettino was a gamble but hugely rated so worth taking.

The first 5 I highlighted bordered on reckless...like hiring Gross and Bloke in a coat.

 

[Dier Hard]

Think you are being generous tbh.

Hoddle was a dangerous gamble and pleat was a season long holding pattern that at one point almost dragged us into a relegation battle.

Think your point holds with santini and Ramos.

AVB, Sherwood and JM were all dangerous gambles.

Jol was highly rated by Arnesen but Levy over ruled him. Redknapp was not much of a gentle having only failed at one club.

Pochettino was a gamble but hugely rated so worth taking.

The first 5 I highlighted bordered on reckless...like hiring Gross and Bloke in a coat.

Poch wasn’t Levy’s first choice either at the time, it was Louis van Gaal.

When you think about it, 2 of our 3 best managers under Levy wasn’t his primary candidates. Jol took over once Santini bolted and Poch was appointed because we couldn’t get LVG.

That’s probably further proof Levy’s footballing decisions aren’t the best when it comes to appointing managers. Let him keep with the business side where he’s bloody brilliant at and have someone here who really understands football take over the appointments and transfers - not the business of football, the sport of football - and I think it could be the best move Levy will make in yonks.

 

[Spurf]

Tottenham boss Jose Mourinho says his side "have problems I cannot resolve myself" but does not believe Spurs are in crisis after losing at West Ham - their fifth defeat in six league games.

Is that just smoke and mirrors, what does he mean problems he cannot resolve?

 

[Spurf]

Poch wasn’t Levy’s first choice either at the time, it was Louis van Gaal.

When you think about it, 2 of our 3 best managers under Levy wasn’t his primary candidates. Jol took over once Santini bolted and Poch was appointed because we couldn’t get LVG.

That’s probably further proof Levy’s footballing decisions aren’t the best when it comes to appointing managers. Let him keep with the business side where he’s bloody brilliant at and have someone here who really understands football take over the appointments and transfers - not the business of football, the sport of football - and I think it could be the best move Levy will make in yonks.

It's true to say the choices for manager at Spurs are hit and miss but they are at all clubs in the PL. The trick seems to be to know when it's best to part company with whoever is the manager at the time. It's still clear that whoever is manager the most important factor is the squad of players. Chelsea prove this over and over. Under Abramovich they are serial killers of managers but manage to stay around the top by virtue of big spends on players. The way football is organised I am not sure it makes much difference who picks the next manager. Levy's (or is it the board?) record is no better or worse than any other top club, only Arsenal & United broke the mold with long lived successful managers. Probably only Shankly and Clough really changed the fortunes of clubs they managed, otherwise it amounts to fulfilling the status quo of the particular club involved. Whether you are expected as a manager to win the league finish top 4, mid table or avoid relegation depends on the status of the club you are working for. Leicester and Blackburn are the exceptions not the rule.

 

[Alfie Conn]

It's been said many times on this thread that the best way forward for us would be to see Levy move to the business side and bring in a DOF , in the past we have clearly seen Levy bring in players who the manager does not fancy, could be said Bale is the latest . I am not a follower of teams other than Spurs but i am amazed at the constant conveyor belt of quality players the likes of Leicester and southampton churn out year after year . I would like nothing more than to see us produce our own players and we hopefully have a least 4 in the wings so I would like to see our scouting and recruitment team overhauled , yes we would still need to buy the best we could afford but in most cases success to me would be to see a team built from youth and clever finds , this is going to mean finding a manager and DOF with the samevision and trust from the board and importantly us supporters.....COYS

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

It's been said many times on this thread that the best way forward for us would be to see Levy move to the business side and bring in a DOF , in the past we have clearly seen Levy bring in players who the manager does not fancy, could be said Bale is the latest . I am not a follower of teams other than Spurs but i am amazed at the constant conveyor belt of quality players the likes of Leicester and southampton churn out year after year . I would like nothing more than to see us produce our own players and we hopefully have a least 4 in the wings so I would like to see our scouting and recruitment team overhauled , yes we would still need to buy the best we could afford but in most cases success to me would be to see a team built from youth and clever finds , this is going to mean finding a manager and DOF with the samevision and trust from the board and importantly us supporters.....COYS

We have a DoF: Steve Hitchen