Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Staines R's]

1. /
   
   I’m going to break my silence on this thread, ask one question, then retreat again to observe.
   
   There seems to be a lot of middle ground around the idea that a British working class has values, which are good values, and they have been betrayed by Labour (as well as the Tories, naturally). That’s Labour since 1945, if you accept the thesis that Embrey has built on, drawing from Frank Field and Maurice Glasman that centralism, including a central welfare state is bad, and we should look after people on local, mutualist, communitarian principles. Economically relatively, left wing, socially conservative (small c), both Glasman and Embrey are happy to use the shorthand ‘Family, faith, flag’. Philip Blond, on the Tory side, promotes very similar ideas.
   
   Would you and others think it logical now to abandon the terminally woke, liberal dominated Labour Party (exaggerating for effect) for a Blue Labour/Red Tory alternative?
   
   I’m genuinely interested in people’s thoughts on this, with no intent to debate or argue about it. It seems there is an opportunity for a new political grouping which will feel materially different to whatever the last middle ground party was*, and which will appeal to an interesting cross section of voters? Why wait for Labour to change itself?
   
   * Change UK! I had to look it up.

   
   You sound like you’ve had a look at Embery’s writings ?
   In short yes I think Labour have to reject the current values of the Labour Party and return to their more traditional working class support. It seems that the Labour Party, or those in control recently, like Blair and Thornberry, hold open distain for the working class electorate, instead pushing on with a more liberal and centerist party.
   To me anyway, this has caused a massive rift between working class voters and the Party....pushing them into the hands of the Tories or even the BNP/UKIP.
   

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

You have referred to those who voted Brexit as flag shaggers. Don’t worm out of it mate. You have also been detrimental to anyone who doesn’t share your views (political) you call Tories voters Right-wing, when most are just normal decent people working hard. Their only crime is that they did not want to vote for some antisemite. Whenever a Tory speaks on TV you call them a ‘nonce’ even though you don’t have a clue about them. The thing you seem to miss about Brexit is that people from all walks of life voted leave. Young/old Rich/poor Intelligent/stupid. The same as people who voted remain? Saying that people that voted remain or vote the Limp Dims are somehow on a high level of intelligence is one of the reasons remain lost. You are now applying that same failed opinion on Tory voters... and once again you will fail. Not because they are sheep or right-wing but the fact that the opposition is s22t and unelectable.

If you’re going to refer to things I’ve said at least be vaguely accurate or it gets boring correcting you.

 

[rangercol]

It seems to me that many of the working class patriotic people you describe hold 'traditional' values of racism and bigotry and wanted to 'Get Brexit Done' for these reasons. If these are the ones that abandoned Labour last time round, Starmer would be wrong to court them by wrapping Labour in the flag, in my opinion.. The party may need to make peace with its traditional support in other ways, but not this.

For ****'s sake.

 

[Staines R's]

It seems to me that many of the working class patriotic people you describe hold 'traditional' values of racism and bigotry. If these are the ones that abandoned Labour last time round, Starmer would be wrong to court them by wrapping Labour in the flag, in my opinion.. The party may need to make peace with its traditional support in other ways, but not this.

But that’s my point Strolls. Being patriotic and loving your country and it’s history and values....doesn’t make you a racist, however much the liberal Left want to say it is.
Someone can be concerned at uncontrolled mass immigration without hating all people of colour.
As can someone respect others views on religion, gender etc.....but still disagree.

 

[Stroller]

But that’s my point Strolls. Being patriotic and loving your country and it’s history and values....doesn’t make you a racist, however much the liberal Left want to say it is.
Someone can be concerned at uncontrolled mass immigration without hating all people of colour.
As can someone respect others views on religion, gender etc.....but still disagree.

I didn't say any of that wasn't true.

1. 
   
   You sound like you’ve had a look at Embery’s writings ?
   In short yes I think Labour have to reject the current values of the Labour Party and return to their more traditional working class support. It seems that the Labour Party, or those in control recently, like Blair and Thornberry, hold open distain for the working class electorate, instead pushing on with a more liberal and centerist party.
   To me anyway, this has caused a massive rift between working class voters and the Party....pushing them into the hands of the Tories or even the BNP/UKIP.

Working class people people who have been pushed into the arms of the Tories are just dropping their trousers and bending over. Those that have gone further - into BNP or UKIP - are the very racists that I described earlier.

I'm working class Stainesy, I couldn't ever vote Tory, let alone the other parties you mention. This is why I wonder if the people you describe were ever 'traditional' Labour supporters in the first place.

 

[Stroller]

For ****'s sake.

 

[Staines R's]

I didn't say any of that wasn't true.



Working class people people who have been pushed into the arms of the Tories are just dropping their trousers and bending over. Those that have gone further - into BNP or UKIP - are the very racists that I described earlier.

I'm working class Stainesy, I couldn't ever vote Tory, let alone the other parties you mention.

If that was the case Strolls, I probably wouldn’t of married the lady I’m with. I don’t think I was racist, but through circumstances in my life I found myself pushed into the arms of the far right......luckily I learnt, educated myself politically and came to realise who these people were.....a bunch of ****s who just want to use you for their own means.
I wasn’t the first, with the likes of Ricky Tomlinson and Kevin Day having the same experience, and I certainly won’t be the last.

 

[Stroller]

If that was the case Strolls, I probably wouldn’t of married the lady I’m with. I don’t think I was racist, but through circumstances in my life I found myself pushed into the arms of the far right......luckily I learnt, educated myself politically and came to realise who these people were.....a bunch of ****s who just want to use you for their own means.
I wasn’t the first, with the likes of Ricky Tomlinson and Kevin Day having the same experience, and I certainly won’t be the last.

What attracted you to the far right, mate?

 

[Staines R's]

What attracted you to the far right, mate?

I’ve often asked myself the same......Most of my mates, including my best mate Ricky, were black and Asian at school and I lived in a multi racial area. Never had any real problems, except for getting a ring nicked by one of my ‘mates’ and didn’t have a moment I can pinpoint.
My thoughts are, that when you are young and impressionable you look for some kind of belonging.....and if the wrong people get hold of you and promise you that companionship then you are ripe for being controlled. You can see the same with some of these kids who get into Radical Islamic causes.....
It’s funny now I look back at it and think that I had one of my Asian mates happily wear a ‘National Front’ badge....or one day saying I wanted a white Britain...but the next saying my best mate and his mum can stay ‘cos they’re my mates...the irony now isn’t lost on me.
These people are evil and once you are ‘down the rabbit hole’ it’s hard not to get further involved....to my shame I did and it took me a while to get out. Sadly some never do

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

If you haven’t done this, can you really say you cared about Captain Tom?

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[Staines R's]

If you haven’t done this, can you really say you cared about Captain Tom?

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That's truly bizarre

 

[Stroller]

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[Star of David Bardsley]

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It is a good flag though. Imagine having a boring flag like Denmark or France. This guy would look ridiculous.

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[Goldhawk-Road]

I didn't say any of that wasn't true.



Working class people people who have been pushed into the arms of the Tories are just dropping their trousers and bending over. Those that have gone further - into BNP or UKIP - are the very racists that I described earlier.

I'm working class Stainesy, I couldn't ever vote Tory, let alone the other parties you mention. This is why I wonder if the people you describe were ever 'traditional' Labour supporters in the first place.

What are the characteristics that make you working class, Strolls? No disrespect, but I've always seen you as a cosmopolitan, middle class, London left winger.

 

[Stroller]

What are the characteristics that make you working class, Strolls? No disrespect, but I've always seen you as a cosmopolitan, middle class, London left winger.

It'a a state of mind, I think, Goldie. I was raised in a very working-class family and, although my personal circumstances now are such that I would be described by most as middle class, I retain the attitudes and affinities of my upbringing.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

It'a a state of mind, I think, Goldie. I was raised in a very working-class family and, although my personal circumstances now are such that I would be described by most as middle class, I retain the attitudes and affinities of my upbringing.

Adele would agree with you! Wealthy but insists she's resolutely working class.

I accept it does depend on someone's roots and I'm not making this personal. But it becomes more problematic when a successful person's circumstances move upwards so that the only their state of mind remains working class. As opposed to others who have all the characteristics of working class - rented home, weekly wage, physical job, sometimes just about managing etc. Then those who are working class in mind only, must surely take care about lecturing those that are working class in their daily circumstances. I'm not being critical of anyone here. Just putting forward the theory

 

[Sooperhoop]

Lively last night on my Manor, you'd never believe there was a lockdown...

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[Staines R's]

Adele would agree with you! Wealthy but insists she's resolutely working class.

I accept it does depend on someone's roots and I'm not making this personal. But it becomes more problematic when a successful person's circumstances move upwards so that the only their state of mind remains working class. As opposed to others who have all the characteristics of working class - rented home, weekly wage, physical job, sometimes just about managing etc. Then those who are working class in mind only, must surely take care about lecturing those that are working class in their daily circumstances. I'm not being critical of anyone here. Just putting forward the theory

A really good question Goldie, and something that I don’t think any of us could answer in a post on here. There are many different theories as to what constitutes a ‘working class’ and I really can’t settle on one that I totally agree with, or what that I totally disagree with.
Some say it’s the jobs people work (low paid, manual) some say it’s ‘skill level’, some say it’s education........I can see the merit in some but not all of these theories.
I like to think of myself as working class but I own my own home, low mortgage ( through living at work previously to do overtime), and now do a relatively “skilled” job.....so am I now really working class ? Well I started working on a building site, had a limited education and didn’t have a pot to piss in when I started out so is it that I WAS working class but now I’m not ?

As I say, a very good question.

 

[Staines R's]

Lively last night on my Manor, you'd never believe there was a lockdown...

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I know a few mates who were posted to Croydon from my training course.......it’s like a ****ing war zone there.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

A really good question Goldie, and something that I don’t think any of us could answer in a post on here. There are many different theories as to what constitutes a ‘working class’ and I really can’t settle on one that I totally agree with, or what that I totally disagree with.
Some say it’s the jobs people work (low paid, manual) some say it’s ‘skill level’, some say it’s education........I can see the merit in some but not all of these theories.
I like to think of myself as working class but I own my own home, low mortgage ( through living at work previously to do overtime), and now do a relatively “skilled” job.....so am I now really working class ? Well I started working on a building site, had a limited education and didn’t have a pot to piss in when I started out so is it that I WAS working class but now I’m not ?

As I say, a very good question.

It's an interesting one isn't it, Stainsey? Personally, I think people do move up a class, but retain the affinity with their former class that Strolls mentioned. But then, they have to take care if they lecture their former class or believe they have a better idea of what's good for that class than those currently within it do.