Off Topic Politics Thread
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Turns out the UK has been controlling the export of medicines since last March:
https://www.theweek.co.uk/951807/uk-quietly-slapped-restrictions-on-covid-medicine-to-eu
https://www.theweek.co.uk/951807/uk-quietly-slapped-restrictions-on-covid-medicine-to-eu
I was totally against Brexit but have to say this behavior does show the EU at it's worst. As I understand things, the UK has bought vaccine on behalf of developing countries and the volume snapped up is not all for ourselves. The EU have been late approving the vaccine and are now complaining that they are behind the UK in the queue. I would love to know what the reaction amongst citizens of countries like Germany and France is to their slow roll-out of vaccine and tardy approval of the medicine. There was a statistic I read earlier in the week regarding France's inoculation take-up which pitched it amongst the worst performing in the developed world.
I consider myself a Francophile so watch with interest what is happening across the Channel. We do not really see much beyond the "EU perspective" on the BBC (or even a more left wing station like Channel Four) but I understand the French to be more disappointed with Macron than we are with Johnson. Macron has been a total disaster.
Sometimes the EU feels like it is one of those brilliant ideas on paper which is let down by the poor quality of people running the show. I am not 100% convinced the Eurocrats are really running the EU to the interests of European citizens. They seem over cautious and often slow to react. Responses tend to be muddled and often ineffectual on a more global stage. They have no real answer with how to deal with China, for example. For me, I think this vaccine scandal demonstrates that those people in control are not up to the task. Having Macron in charge is a bit like having Nick Clegg run your country.
I consider myself a Francophile so watch with interest what is happening across the Channel. We do not really see much beyond the "EU perspective" on the BBC (or even a more left wing station like Channel Four) but I understand the French to be more disappointed with Macron than we are with Johnson. Macron has been a total disaster.
Sometimes the EU feels like it is one of those brilliant ideas on paper which is let down by the poor quality of people running the show. I am not 100% convinced the Eurocrats are really running the EU to the interests of European citizens. They seem over cautious and often slow to react. Responses tend to be muddled and often ineffectual on a more global stage. They have no real answer with how to deal with China, for example. For me, I think this vaccine scandal demonstrates that those people in control are not up to the task. Having Macron in charge is a bit like having Nick Clegg run your country.
Sadly (imo) it rather looks like Macron may well get dumped at the next election by the right-wing parties in France. So ..... more nationalism, more jingoistic bullshit and more difficulties for the “ordinary citizen”.
Why the **** can’t we realise that we’re all together on this planet, we need to work together to combat the **** that we’re doing to the world and being “nationalistic” and flag-waving whilst cutting ourselves off from other countries and people ain’t gonna help us when we’ve totally ****ed up the planet and are struggling to survive?
The whole Brexit, Covid situations are just now about point scoring. Any slight or error on either side is hammered and used as an “I told you so”
Last night I read in the group of lads I share messages with, that Macron is a Cnut and this action just shows that all French are the same and are also cnuts. Finished with the wonderfully intellectual and mature comment of “If it wasn’t for us they’d be speaking German now”
I genuinely despair
Last night I read in the group of lads I share messages with, that Macron is a Cnut and this action just shows that all French are the same and are also cnuts. Finished with the wonderfully intellectual and mature comment of “If it wasn’t for us they’d be speaking German now”
I genuinely despair
Sounds like the last 3 years on his thread
You have a very valid point though. My dad voted Brexit, and I'm sure you can all guess his daily newspaper that he gets each day...
He told me last night that we should round up every foreigner and send them back. I suggested where to, and how would that create not only a positive economic contribution, but what about those that have family born in the UK, where do their rights stand. He couldnt answer. I told him that whilst I didnt vote for Brexit, I would have preferred remain, but that the result should have been honoured.
I will say I'm gobsmacked by the EU response last night, and whilst the Bloc condemns countries like Russia and China, and rightly so, their actions were rather aligned to those countries philosophy.
I could weep. People would have a better understanding of other cultures if they experienced them more. When I worked I spent a lot of time in France, Germany, Spain, and Portugal away from touristy areas working and living and socialising with local people. As a consequence I have many friends across Europe and am thoroughly pissed of by Brexit. Some of the stereotypes people believe about Eropeans are so far off the mark of how people really are that it is unbelievable.
The people who made the remark about the French Speaking German but for us should visit Oraduor sur Glane where a whole village was annihilated as retribution for the French Resistance fighting the Germans in preparation for D-Day. They would never make that stupidly offensive and cruel remark again. The courage shown by the French and the Polish citizens in resisting the Nazis required a very different and more demanding heroism than being a soldier in the British army in WWII.
Your friends should be very pleased that the formation of the EU has meant that they haven't had to fight in a terrible pan European war like their grandparents and great grandparents. By contrast their bigoted thinking has brought us the likes of Johnson and his cronies and with them a real threat to world peace and social disorder.
Bloody right, Godders! I, too, spent much of my working life throughout Europe and was planning, before this pandemic and Brexshit, to spend my twilight years travelling and returning to visit all the wonderful people I met in so many countries. I still hope, one day, to make that journey, though it may be truncated now and, I’m sure, will be more expensive. Some of my most heart-rending visits have been to Oraduor-sur-Glane and Auschwitz and to hear nationalistic comments such as those mentioned above is truly vile. My aunt was Dutch and worked for the resistance there in WW2. She rarely talked about it, but my cousin has unearthed diaries with memories in and sent them to me. What these people went through under occupation was incredible and she lost many friends to the nazis.
So, to see the rise of ultra-nationalism and the ever-increasing hatred of “foreigners” in this country (and elsewhere across the world) makes me super angry. There was NEVER a real issue with the EU when we were in it (apart from being the butt of the occasional joke, etc) until the right wing took over and the ERG were faced with having to declare their offshore income.
As you say, the people of the whole of Europe should be eternally grateful to the EU for pulling Europe together and avoiding pan-European conflict. Instead we get “Little Englanders” full of **** and piss saying things like “we saved them” and “we’re better than them” ..... to quote Fats “I despair”
But here in lies an issue Dave. You say there never was a problem with the EU, but this is personal to you and people who share similar political/social views. To others, clearly there was an issue, and many people voted as if they had an issue.
Part of the problems we all face in life is a lack of understanding as to how others perceive things, which demonstrates effective communication, resulting in a parting of opinions and it goes on and on in a viscous circle.
Maybe we could all have a little more tolerance, myself included...
I agree, Billy. The world could definitely do with more tolerance and understanding of different peoples’ issues and understanding.
However (and maybe this IS personal to me) I don’t remember there being massive issues with the EU back in 2012 when we had the olympics in London and everyone seemed to be happy to be part of a “united nation” working together at the centre of the EU. I don’t remember anyone complaining about the influx of EU staff into the NHS or the fact that nearly all the plumbers in my area were Polish (and did a bloody good job the times I needed to use them).
I DO remember the xenophobic ranting of the Brexit loving billionaire owners of the general press though, when that idiot Cameron lifted the lid of Pandora’s box and unleashed the genies of Farage and his nasty pieces of work.
I DO remember asking people who their MEP was and if they’d voted (“no idea” and “no” were the most common replies)
So, what I’m saying (and, yes, perhaps I’m intolerant) is that by sheer apathy and being led by the popular media we have, quite probably, taken this country back almost into the 3rd world where we’ll be poorer (unless you have a few millions stashed offshore in a tax haven or happen to be mates with or related to the most corrupt government this country has ever seen) and our children and grandchildren will suffer for it.
At some point we will have no option but to return to the EU, but we’ll have no power of veto, will most likely have to accept the Euro and be part of the Schengen area. By then, I imagine, we’ll be a lot poorer and, hopefully, more humble of our position, unless this joke of a government have managed to kill most of us off by then.
I imagine I won’t be around to see it, as I reckon it’ll take at least a generation before we will be in a position to renegotiate a return (assuming, of course, that the younger voters don’t fall for the same lies and bullshit their parents did).
I visited Oradour sur glane some 10 years ago on the recommendation of some grumpy old git on Here. An incredible experience. I fear that if I recommend that, they’d look it up and use it as “proof” that the French should be eternally at our reverence because we saved them from more of that!
I must also point out that within this group I was introduced to a few years ago, there are a couple of friends. The ones making comments like I mentioned are not friends and are one reason why I don’t fully engage socially with that group. I am often asked (or was when socialising was allowed) why I didn’t attend many of their meet ups and they must think I am being humorous when I tell them it’s because I don’t want to spend too much time in their company.
So true Billy. I don’t engage in these conversations with them anymore. Last night I was reading, not commenting.
Well that may all be true Dave, but then again, it could all just be supposition, and also how you see it.
I guess one things is for sure, and that is that time will tell if it was a good or bad idea.
But still, you say you remember this, and heard that. But you doesn't include everything or everyone, and none of us yet know how it will play out. It may just be that you, and people that think like you didnt hear anything, as the rhetoric suited you at the time.
Like i said earlier, I would have remained, but we now need to try together to make the most of it, and with the divisions widening of the uk public, I believe that will make the situation worse.
I dont blame you from not engaging.
It's an interesting conundrum this for me.
Until I got into reading this thread, I largely didnt have that much of a view about a number of posters on here. Since I did, and I started raising Qs about views politically, I'd say many people dont like me, and that perhaps I dont like them.
I therefore sat back and read, not engaging on all threads on here, as I was very confused. Oh and banned for suggesting a popular poster was arrogant, whilst others vehemently attacked me, that went unpunished (jokes init Chilcs
).But in reality, the reason I come back, is partly because how can we really know someone just based on snippets we read on here?
I think there was a YouGov poll way back in about 2010-12 or so which asked what the major issues were which people were concerned about. Less than 1% of people put the EU as an issue which bothered them. Of course, that was before the massive media campaign began, telling us all about the mythical vast sums of money we sent to the EU coffers for little benefit, or the tyranny of the European Court of Justice which had only ever ruled against the UK on a handful of minor infringements, or the lack of sovereignty we suffered from, despite the power of veto we held. Obviously those lies, and let's call them by their name, had an effect over the next few years, because of what happened in 2016.
I absolutely agree with you about putting yourself in others' shoes, and life would be a lot easier if we all did more of that, but I still feel it's worth pointing out to people who hold views different from my own why I think the way I do about certain things. Surely as long as this is done with politeness and consideration there's nothing wrong with having a disagreement as such.
Oh I completely agree, I think one of the biggest mistake the remain party did was try to trade in the same way the leave campaign did, it just was never going to he as successful. I think that both sides didnt cover themselves in glory.
I said it previously on here, about the media being the biggest culprits in the UK. We have simply created a framework of debauchery really, from a money point of view, that enables the highest bidder to win, regardless of the detail.
For me, this needs fixing before one can truly fix politics. I get into a row with Badger about this, and I'll say it again as it is relevant. I suggested that we are like the rats following the Pied Piper, as we all follow the rhetoric we want to hear, when it plays our tune, and I believe this is true, that when we hear something that as an individual is pleasing, we like it, and so on.
Now, **** knows how we fix the press, I'll leave that to you other clever bastards on here, I'm just a fool scraping poor wages through a lack of education created by our political system. Oh, and i was just plain dumb.
Oh and your last point about pointing out why you feel a certain way is gold, I really think that is important, one of the most important things we can do, but is rarely done. I feel this way as sometimes I struggle to understand views, it can come across as a barrage of noise, with stuff being thrown at me continuously. And many posts in this thread have appeared his way to me, which is maybe why I started asking Qs about it a few months back.
That's fair enough, and I certainly take it on board.
Just seen this, from 2 weeks ago, with Johnson saying that he wouldn’t hesitate to use article 16.
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...V_spyjDsV14IQ4jj0WNDF7NiC4g0eEfElB0kzLo5JGUWo