Off Topic Politics Thread

[St. Luigi Scrosoppi]

I had no idea Johnson Senior had made these comments but surely someone can about a private prosecution ?

It is strange how people who spout this kind of nonsense turn out to have been descended from immigrants. Boris Johnson was the subject of "Who do you think you are" many years ago and he ended up finding Muslim ancestors in Turkey. Nigel Farage not only has a French name but his ex-wives have ll been European too. Don't even get me o to the subject ot Priti Patel!!

I find the whole idea of "identity" really fascinating right the way through history. You start to appreciate just how superficial the whole concept is and that it is something that is almost entirely political with little basis on reality. Whenever I have been in France during the World Cup, it is incredible just how many "Frenchmen" are wearing shirts of teams such as Algeria, Portugal, Italy, etc. The issue is even more complicated when you go back in time because most countries did not exist in their current form. I am convinced that "national identity" is just another form of nostalgia even if it is for something that never really existed.

During the period after 1066 and mid 14th Century, England's identity was a lot more "French" with the people holding the land from the crown often having land in France too. Villages in Hampshire like Stoke Charity reflect this in their name - the second part being attributable to the fact that the Lord who held the land originated from La Charite in France. (I believe it is near Bourges.) In fact, I don't think people ever really felt "English" until the 1300s when you first encounter ideas of nationalism in writers such as William Langland in "Piers the ploughman."

The most interesting scenario with "identity" that staggers me is Celtic tribal names which continued to manifest themselves for several years after particular countries were vanquished by the Romans. You can see several funeral stele in the British Museum (although this phenomena is actually better demonstrated in the Roman museum in Lyon) where a person still identifies with a particular tribe" 200-300 years after they ceased to be a practical entity. Whenever I encounter this I wonder just how much of this is genuine and whether people adopted this identity without appreciating their origins or whether it was like an allegiance to a football team. It is especially surreal when you consider the genocide carried out by Julius Caesar in Gaul.

I love the questions these things pose. Although it fascinates me, if you contrast with the comments of Johnson senior and Farage, the parallels are not too difficult to draw. I just think these people are dangerous dreamers who have no grasp of reality and cannot accept the concept that the idea of national identity is flawed. Farage reminds me of Asterix but without the magic potion and as misguided as his Bard.

I always tell the very lovely Mrs Godders that I am a member of the Atrebates tribe. The Atrebates were a tribe of British Celts living in the area of modern Sussex, Berkshire, and Hampshire. During the 1st and 2nd centuries BC, they were among the most powerful of British tribes, maintaining strong links with related tribes in Gaul. The very lovely Mrs Godders on the other hand will have none of it maintaining if I ever belonged to a tribe it was the Reprobates.

 

[davecg69]

I had no idea Johnson Senior had made these comments but surely someone can about a private prosecution ?

It is strange how people who spout this kind of nonsense turn out to have been descended from immigrants. Boris Johnson was the subject of "Who do you think you are" many years ago and he ended up finding Muslim ancestors in Turkey. Nigel Farage not only has a French name but his ex-wives have ll been European too. Don't even get me o to the subject ot Priti Patel!!

I find the whole idea of "identity" really fascinating right the way through history. You start to appreciate just how superficial the whole concept is and that it is something that is almost entirely political with little basis on reality. Whenever I have been in France during the World Cup, it is incredible just how many "Frenchmen" are wearing shirts of teams such as Algeria, Portugal, Italy, etc. The issue is even more complicated when you go back in time because most countries did not exist in their current form. I am convinced that "national identity" is just another form of nostalgia even if it is for something that never really existed.

During the period after 1066 and mid 14th Century, England's identity was a lot more "French" with the people holding the land from the crown often having land in France too. Villages in Hampshire like Stoke Charity reflect this in their name - the second part being attributable to the fact that the Lord who held the land originated from La Charite in France. (I believe it is near Bourges.) In fact, I don't think people ever really felt "English" until the 1300s when you first encounter ideas of nationalism in writers such as William Langland in "Piers the ploughman."

The most interesting scenario with "identity" that staggers me is Celtic tribal names which continued to manifest themselves for several years after particular countries were vanquished by the Romans. You can see several funeral stele in the British Museum (although this phenomena is actually better demonstrated in the Roman museum in Lyon) where a person still identifies with a particular tribe" 200-300 years after they ceased to be a practical entity. Whenever I encounter this I wonder just how much of this is genuine and whether people adopted this identity without appreciating their origins or whether it was like an allegiance to a football team. It is especially surreal when you consider the genocide carried out by Julius Caesar in Gaul.

I love the questions these things pose. Although it fascinates me, if you contrast with the comments of Johnson senior and Farage, the parallels are not too difficult to draw. I just think these people are dangerous dreamers who have no grasp of reality and cannot accept the concept that the idea of national identity is flawed. Farage reminds me of Asterix but without the magic potion and as misguided as his Bard.

Dead right, Ian. We’re all mongrels in the end and this business of “tribalism”or “nationalism” is utter bollocks. Yes, one can be patriotic to one’s country, that’s understandable, but to say that any tribe, race or nation is “better” than any other is so pathetic.
As a complete mongrel (my grandparents were Irish, Scottish, English and Welsh and I was born in Australia ....) I support England in sports (as it’s my “home country”) but I’d no more say that being English is the best nationality than I would say that Hitler was a great man (and a great nationalist supporter).
We’re on this planet together and together we need to work to try and fix the issues. Sadly, I doubt that will happen, but to be nationalistic to me is so wrong - we’re people of the world, of Europe (due to our geography) and we should be holding those who tell us we’re “better” than anyone else where to go. Except in the case of football, of close, where we all know “our” football team are the best

 

[Kaito]

Spot on Ian and Dave. The only caveat to what you guys have written is that the Southampton Tribe is universally known to be genetically, intellectually and socially far superior to the Portsmouth Swamp Tribe.

 

[saintrichie123]

Spot on Ian and Dave. The only caveat to what you guys have written is that the Southampton Tribe is universally known to be genetically, intellectually and socially far superior to the Portsmouth Swamp Tribe.

Also we have the correct amount of fingers ......unlike our fishy friends down the road

 

[davecg69]

Spot on Ian and Dave. The only caveat to what you guys have written is that the Southampton Tribe is universally known to be genetically, intellectually and socially far superior to the Portsmouth Swamp Tribe.

That, of course, goes without saying, Kaito ..... plus the note from Richie about the number of fingers

 

[Archers Road]

The best thing about being English, I’ve always felt, is not feeling the need to go on about how great it is being English. We don’t do that in England, or we didn’t use to.

All that has changed recently, and it’s making me less fond of my fellow countrymen. This phenomenon of English nationalism, I don’t like at all; it’s not very English, for a start.

 

[StJabbo1]

Update on the petition “Seek Europe-wide Visa-free work permit for Touring professionals and Artists”.

Dear StJabbo

You recently signed the petition “Seek Europe-wide Visa-free work permit for Touring professionals and Artists”:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/563294

On Monday 8 February the Petitions Committee will hold a virtual e-petition session to discuss arrangements for UK musicians in the EU.

MPs will discuss arrangements for UK musicians in the EU in light of the petition you have signed calling for a Europe-wide visa-free work permit for touring professionals and artists. Caroline Dinenage, Minister for Digital and Culture, will respond for the Government.

Watch live from 4.30pm on Monday 8 February:

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Petitions sessions and debates are an opportunity for MPs to discuss the important issues raised by petitions, however they cannot directly change the law or result in a vote to implement the request of the petition.

This petition is being considered in an e-petition session because sittings in Westminster Hall (where e-petitions are normally debated) have been suspended as part of Parliament’s arrangements for adapting to the Coronavirus outbreak.

Find out more about this session: https://committees.parliament.uk/co...g-to-arrangements-for-uk-musicians-in-the-eu/

Thanks,
The Petitions team
UK Government and Parliament

 

[San Tejón]

I don’t know how this happened but......

Abortion in Poland
It’s official: Poland has the strictest abortion laws of any large country in Europe after a ruling came into force last night outlawing the procedure except in cases of rape or incest or when the pregnancy threatens the life of the mother. The ruling by the country’s constitutional court renders abortion illegal even in cases of severe and irreversible foetal abnormalities, which were cited in 98 per cent of the 1,000 abortions performed in Poland last year. There were mass protests when the court’s decision was announced three months ago, and more in Warsaw last night. Last year an estimated 200,000 Polish women went abroad for abortions or had them illegally. A dissenting opinion to the ruling was written by five of the court’s 15 judges, but only two of the judges are women and all but one have been appointed by Poland’s ruling conservative Law and Justice Party within the past six years.

 

[davecg69]

I don’t know how this happened but......

Abortion in Poland
It’s official: Poland has the strictest abortion laws of any large country in Europe after a ruling came into force last night outlawing the procedure except in cases of rape or incest or when the pregnancy threatens the life of the mother. The ruling by the country’s constitutional court renders abortion illegal even in cases of severe and irreversible foetal abnormalities, which were cited in 98 per cent of the 1,000 abortions performed in Poland last year. There were mass protests when the court’s decision was announced three months ago, and more in Warsaw last night. Last year an estimated 200,000 Polish women went abroad for abortions or had them illegally. A dissenting opinion to the ruling was written by five of the court’s 15 judges, but only two of the judges are women and all but one have been appointed by Poland’s ruling conservative Law and Justice Party within the past six years.

Bloody hell - back to the dreaded back street abortions then ......

 

[The Ides of March]

The best thing about being English, I’ve always felt, is not feeling the need to go on about how great it is being English. We don’t do that in England, or we didn’t use to.

All that has changed recently, and it’s making me less fond of my fellow countrymen. This phenomenon of English nationalism, I don’t like at all; it’s not very English, for a start.

British coming in all shapes, sizes, colours, beliefs and persuasions. On the census form, I would tick the box British as I have a UK passport. I don't have an English oñe as England, the state does not exist, until perhaps Scotland can get its independence, which I hope it does!

 

[San Tejón]

Get your violins out. Samantha Cameron is finding it difficult to trade with the EU since Brexit.
If only she had known someone who could have prevented Brexit from being offered and achieved.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-polit...f0YFDGtMk6cq8pXCTDxrKcv84oXr9XfEbjHdZk23tv9oo

 

[ChilcoSaint]

Our government gets more Trumpian every day. Now they have redefined what constitutes public interest. Here’s an email from Jolyon Maugham:



Hi Chilcs

Correspondence with Government has revealed they expect to spend a staggering £1 million defending our judicial review of their decisions to award contracts criticised by the NAO. This is a sum unprecedented in our lawyers’ experience of judicial review proceedings. We can’t but wonder whether they are trying to scare us off – using the bottomless public purse to avoid accountability to the public.

Government also says, remarkably, that finding out whether they acted lawfully in channelling hundreds of millions or billions to their VIP associates, is not in the public interest.

We had until recently been working on the understanding that we had raised enough money for our challenges to Government’s awards of hundreds of millions of pounds of PPE contracts to Pestfix, Ayanda, and Clandeboye.

We were shocked to learn that – having failed to provide the evidence we’ve been asking for since July – Government is threatening a vast disclosure exercise going well beyond what would normally be undertaken in a judicial review. And not just that they have hired an expensive international commercial law firm. They expect to have a team of 30-40 working for up to 3 months on an exercise that has not been requested by us, or by the Court.

In the experience of our legal team, costs incurred by Government in judicial review proceedings rarely exceed £100,000. Here Government says it has already spent over £325,000, and estimates their total costs will amount to £1 million – a staggering sum for a judicial review.

Government knows full well that we cannot take existential risk on bringing a single case. So we wrote to Government asking it to agree and order ‘capping’ both our costs and the taxpayers’ costs in these public interest proceedings.

We were shocked this week to receive their response contending that the litigation is not in the public interest, and refusing our proposed reciprocal cap: “In particular our client does not agree that the proceedings are ‘public interest proceedings'”. These are cases involving on Government’s own admission hundreds of millions of pounds being spent on unusable facemasks on companies that went through the VIP lane.

Not in the public interest? What are they on!

The point is all the more remarkable given that a barrister employed by the Government Legal Department in her witness statement of 30 November stated that: “We acknowledge that there is considerable public interest in Covid related procurement, particularly of PPE.”

We have now applied to the court for a Cost Cap. In line with our transparency principles I am publishing my Witness Statement. But if we don’t get one, unless a white knight or white knights emerge, the simple fact is we will have to abandon the litigation. We are not in a position to bear a £1 million risk.

Thank you,

Jolyon Maugham QC
Director of Good Law Project

Good Law Project is able to carry out its work thanks to donations from thousands of people. If you are in a position to do so, you can make a donation here:

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[San Tejón]

I know nothing about stocks and shares, but hats off to this group that is screwing with hedge fund owners and causing them grief.
The short video shows a very angry man who likes swearing.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/b...rPXF2DoHtncOIlCEk81EuMBH2LCwDk8kYKeBTdu3lrFG4

 

[Schad]

I know nothing about stocks and shares, but hats off to this group that is screwing with hedge fund owners and causing them grief.
The short video shows a very angry man who likes swearing.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/b...rPXF2DoHtncOIlCEk81EuMBH2LCwDk8kYKeBTdu3lrFG4

While they're screwing a couple hedge funds, the unfortunate reality is that most of the people who have bandwagoned this will lose big. Most aren't going to get out in time when the price implodes.

Edit: which, apparently, may happened about two minutes after I posted this.

 

[SaintStu]

I had no idea Johnson Senior had made these comments but surely someone can about a private prosecution ?

It is strange how people who spout this kind of nonsense turn out to have been descended from immigrants. Boris Johnson was the subject of "Who do you think you are" many years ago and he ended up finding Muslim ancestors in Turkey. Nigel Farage not only has a French name but his ex-wives have ll been European too. Don't even get me o to the subject ot Priti Patel!!
.

I agree, a lot of arguments based on imaginary lines on maps.
It was not until the industrial revolution that a person would rarely leave their immediate neighborhood and thus the ideas of nationalism was only thought about times of wars when one Lord/King needed the locals to join an army to fight another Lord/King. The rich and powerful need to give a reason to the plebs to knock each other heads off.

 

[San Tejón]

While they're screwing a couple hedge funds, the unfortunate reality is that most of the people who have bandwagoned this will lose big. Most aren't going to get out in time when the price implodes.

Edit: which, apparently, may happened about two minutes after I posted this.

As I said I don’t understand stocks and shares trading, but would hope that people didn’t get hurt to badly in their attempts to derail groups that made money out of the global crisis.

 

[Schad]

As I said I don’t understand stocks and shares trading, but would hope that people didn’t get hurt to badly in their attempts to derail groups that made money out of the global crisis.

The good news: the only thing that the denizens of Wall Street Bets enjoy more than making large piles of money on stupid gambles is losing large piles of money on stupid gambles. So a lot of them will get hurt pretty badly, but the posts where they show their portfolios down 95% will rack up a tonne of internet karma.

 

[StJabbo1]

Get your violins out. Samantha Cameron is finding it difficult to trade with the EU since Brexit.
If only she had known someone who could have prevented Brexit from being offered and achieved.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-polit...f0YFDGtMk6cq8pXCTDxrKcv84oXr9XfEbjHdZk23tv9oo

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[Ian Thumwood]

I always tell the very lovely Mrs Godders that I am a member of the Atrebates tribe. The Atrebates were a tribe of British Celts living in the area of modern Sussex, Berkshire, and Hampshire. During the 1st and 2nd centuries BC, they were among the most powerful of British tribes, maintaining strong links with related tribes in Gaul. The very lovely Mrs Godders on the other hand will have none of it maintaining if I ever belonged to a tribe it was the Reprobates.

Godders

You go back to the Celtic tribes and things get even more interesting. The Atrebates originated from the area of France around Arras. I believe it was their king Commius who had fought against Caesar at Alesia before leaving Gaul for the British isles. The oppidum of the Atrebates was at Silchester and was significant before the Romans converted it to a Colonia around 70's AD as Calleva Atrebatum. A later king, Cogidubnus became a client king of Claudius after the invasion in 43AD and there is a theory that Fishbourne Palace was built for him (This is currently being challenged by the idea that this was, in fact, an Imperial Palace that would have been built for Nero who never visited these shores.) A Roman stone commemorating the building of a temple by Cogidubnus (sometimes called Togidubnus) was found in Chichester and subsequently reinstalled in the wall of one of the municipal buildings built in 1700s - you can still see it there today.) The excavations by Reading University at Silchester have been centred around the baths over the last few seasons but they have also covered remains of the ditches an ramparts which would have served the earlier Iron Age community. You can download some brilliant pdf's from the UoR archaeology website to explain this and , if this interests you, I would recommend this, It is also possible to visit the digs during the summer and they do have guides there over the weekend. The palace at Fishnourne is also hugely impressive and the museum there is very good too. The Novium museum in Chichester is sited over the old Roman baths whose remains have been exposed but they cover all periods of history and not just Roman. Of course, Chichester shares the feature of Roman walls with Silchester albeit these are much later and date from around late 2nd / early 3rd century as is typical throughout much of Roman Europe.

The whole "Celtic" identity is even more confusing when you look elsewhere. The hillfort at St Catherine's Hill was the earliest site of Iron Age occupation around Winchester but this was ultimately abandoned and the former hill fort site at Orams Arbour in the west of the city was created later. This appears to have had connection with the Belgae who originated from the Champagne / Belgium area. It gets even more strange when you consider North Yorkshire which was occupied by the Parisii who originated from what is now the Paris basin.

I would love to be able to have gone back to this time in our history as understand just how fluid the situation was with Celtic tribes. Our only written records come from the likes of Caesar, Seutonius and Tacitus and I am certain that their accounts would have been biased and misunderstood the real situation on the ground. Even in the period between Caesar and Claudius, there were tribes who were sympathetic towards the Romans as well as those who were hostile. Even then, people recognised the benefits from trading within a larger territory and you can find amphorae from at least the time of Augustus being imported in to these isles.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Ian

 

[St. Luigi Scrosoppi]

Ian you didn't explain where the Reprobates came from all though I have an inkling it may have been Portsea Island.

On a serious note thanks for that information and it is interesting that Arras is one of my favourite towns in France.