More’s the pity and one of many reasons why I don’t like it and don’t trust them.
Off Topic Politics Thread
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More’s the pity and one of many reasons why I don’t like it and don’t trust them.
That’s a very moving story Archers, but in the context of yesterday’s report, there is an element of tragic irony there. The Labour members who joined forces with the Communists and non-aligned liberals and had to fight Mosley’s fascists in East London were doing so to protect the Jewish community from persecution. They helped to prevent the same thing happening to London’s Jews as was happening every day in Nazi Germany at time, at the hands of Hitler’s brown shirts.
How has it come about that 80 or 90 years later antisemitism has become institutionalised in that proud party? Surely every Labour Party member has to bear some responsibility for that? It can’t just be bad leadership on the part of Corbyn, however much personal blame he has to take.
I still believe that not one member of the Labour party hates Jewish people but they protest about the Jewish state's actions in the Middle East that is a big difference.
I don't agree with Israel's treatment of Palestinians but do not consider myself to be bigoted or racist in any way. Arguing against Israel does not automatically make you an Anti-Semite.
I'm anti Ulster Unionist in the same way.
I don't agree with Israel's treatment of Palestinians but do not consider myself to be bigoted or racist in any way. Arguing against Israel does not automatically make you an Anti-Semite.
I'm anti Ulster Unionist in the same way.
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That’s a very good point, and I’ve always defended Jeremy Corbyn’s anti-Zionist and pro-Palestinian stance. However, it’s his failure to investigate, and worse, his actual interference in investigations into claims of antisemitic activity which is impossible to defend.
Referring back to something that was mentioned previous, namely that Corbyn was anti-Zionist but not antisemitic. It's absolutely possible to be very critical of Israel without being antisemitic, but one of the more consistent and insidious tropes in otherizing various populations (including Jews, but also immigrants, Catholics, Muslims, you name it) is the notion of dual loyalties, where the suggestion becomes that being Jewish means being supportive of Israel which means means supportive of the excesses of the Israeli government, and in particular Netanyahu. And what this report found is that, frequently, those notions were blended together within Labour, and yeah: that's bigotry. It's bigotry if you believe that your Muslim neighbour is a stalking horse for the caliphate, and it's bigotry if you believe that British Jews are to blame for the Netanyahu government. Hell, half of Israel doesn't support Bibi, and the Jewish diaspora is quite a bit more liberal in the aggregate.
And this isn't just a problem because of the bigotry, but because it also takes all of the sting out of legitimate criticism if it's mixed into a melange of antisemitism and conspiracy. By dismissing antisemitism within the party as anti-Zionism, Labour ceded any moral authority on the issue.
And this isn't just a problem because of the bigotry, but because it also takes all of the sting out of legitimate criticism if it's mixed into a melange of antisemitism and conspiracy. By dismissing antisemitism within the party as anti-Zionism, Labour ceded any moral authority on the issue.
An awful lot of Jewish people in general are, at the very least, heavily critical of the Netanyahu government. There are a bunch of historical reasons for it, but the Jewish population in the states is very liberal, which makes the contrast to Britain (where it's one of the more strident Conservative voting groups at this point) all the more pronounced.
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Yup. Anti Semitism in the Labour Party matters because it’s wrong, but it also has special resonance - and irony - because of close historic links between the Jewish community, and the Labour Party.
I find it interesting that anti semitism is brought up so much. One never heard about anti Buddhism or anti Islam. I imagine all are terrible for those that suffer and wonder if this is due to influence and power. The Conservatives have a friend's of Israel group and in the US there is strong pro-Israel lobbying.
Press talkng about a national lockdown. Didn't I hear Starmer asking for one three weeks ago?
Everything is driven by self interest. For example who in the international community cares about the plight of the Kurds and their appalling treatment by the Turks? The Kurds have no oil so here is nothing to be gained by taking up the fight on their behalf. As a consequence they have suffered the most terrible atrocities from the Turks as an uncaring world looked on.
Thats probably because we live in a world where most people point a finger at another person rather than at a mirror.
I wouldn't look in the mirror at 6.00 in the morning, mate.
But you make a serious point. The sanctimonious twaddle that passes for debate in modern politics is the key to getting so much wrong. The anti-semitism row is just one example. As someone who has spent far too long in Trade Union and Labour Party meetings over the years I have heard anti-semitism dressed as 'support for Palestine'. Those who indulge in this are in strong denial, and notably form cliques with those they recognise share their own narrow views. Be clear, that 'purity of thought' that is a feature of the 'hard left' is simply myopia.
A tangential but important point is the way that we seem to encourage yah-boo debate. If there is to be another lockdown, for example, I believe Starmer will say the Labour party will support it as being the right thing to do (leave aside a moment as to whether it is or not). The hard left will simply want to rub BoJo's nose in it and say "See, told you so" and attack Starmer for being weak.
This isn't healthy. I suspect that many in Tory ranks view the impending cliff edge of Brexit with alarm but recognise the scorn that would be poured on them if they now did the sensible thing and put the business on hold until we get a grip on Covid.
We need grown up politics and less punch and judy.
So true. Except I have a Michael Jackson song in my head now.
Oh cruel fate. The mods should ban FLT from the thread for causing that sort of agony
No, definitely politics. Although I can see why Pfeffel wouldn't want to talk about it.
( Rod Stewart)
I have some issues with the term interference into claims, because some of that interference was actually trying to speed the investigation process up when anti-semitism was reported, such as when Red Ken got his marching orders.