project big picture

[Archers Road]

That only works at the top level if it’s global though, otherwise the top players leave and go where they can earn the highest guaranteed dosh.

It can work in the lower domestic leagues as the top talent is always going to move up the divisions anyway.

Not necessarily global, but Europe wide certainly. Good luck getting anywhere with UEFA, but in principle it’s not hard to imagine a consensus across Europe to level the playing field, especially in Italy, France and Spain where if anything the disparity between rich and poor is even greater than it is here.

Actually what we’re seeing is at least the glimmer of a recognition from the big clubs that they need the grass roots; pretty sure that applies equally beyond these shores. Everything is connected.

 

[Saf]

Jimmy Hill was the following
player
manager
Director
Broadcaster

and instrumental in
removing maximum wage
First all seater stadium in England
3 points for a win

so not really like Parry et al

PS Clough was on the take throughout his career .

You missed out 'cheating big chinned, horrible bastard'

 

[Saf]

I agree - the point of any financial controls should be to ensure that the clubs are sustainable and not try and level the playing field, competition wise.

A more rigorous FFP scheme needs to be in-place that limits the % of revenue that can be spent on transfer fees and player wages. Revenue should include any money that an owner wants to plough into the club from his own pocket but that can't be in the form of a loan or buying the ground etc. Clubs should also be forced to provide a bank guarantee to cover players salaries over the period of that player's contract so that they can't force the club into administration by signing a player they can't afford.

Yeah, I'd go with that. The problem would be shutting down all the loopholes that bring in 'extra revenue' - You just know that all of a sudden clubs sponsorship deals etc would rise steeply...

I especially like the last part about providing a bank guarantee.

 

[Tobes]

Not necessarily global, but Europe wide certainly. Good luck getting anywhere with UEFA, but in principle it’s not hard to imagine a consensus across Europe to level the playing field, especially in Italy, France and Spain where if anything the disparity between rich and poor is even greater than it is here.

Actually what we’re seeing is at least the glimmer of a recognition from the big clubs that they need the grass roots; pretty sure that applies equally beyond these shores. Everything is connected.

Thinking about it though I’m fairly sure that they couldn’t get as far as putting an actual cap on an individual players basic wage level, as it’d not be legal. The only way they can salary cap is via a rule regarding wages as a percentage of turnover, which would merely favour the established ‘big’ clubs who have noses in the CL trough.

I also think there’s a distinct difference between acknowledging the need for a healthy football pyramid and merely throwing cash at it, whilst simultaneously removing things like the League cup. The EFL clubs should merely live within their means imo, yes they need a bail out now due to extenuating circumstances, and the PL probably have a moral obligation to help out, but so do the Govt. The stance at the minute is akin to Mr Ahmed’s Spar being under pressure due to COVID and the Govt insisting that Tesco’s bail him out.

 

[Saf]

Thinking about it though I’m fairly sure that they couldn’t get as far as putting an actual cap on an individual players basic wage level, as it’d not be legal. The only way they can salary cap is via a rule regarding wages as a percentage of turnover, which would merely favour the established ‘big’ clubs who have noses in the CL trough.

I also think there’s a distinct difference between acknowledging the need for a healthy football pyramid and merely throwing cash at it, whilst simultaneously removing things like the League cup. The EFL clubs should merely live within their means imo, yes they need a bail out now due to extenuating circumstances, and the PL probably have a moral obligation to help out, but so do the Govt. The stance at the minute is akin to Mr Ahmed’s Spar being under pressure due to COVID and the Govt insisting that Tesco’s bail him out.

In league one and two, it's set at a club salary cap. In league one you can spend 2.5m each year and in league two you can spend 1.5m each year. Players can be paid whatever is agreed between themselves and the club, but with a full squad the maximum wage in league one would be £1,700 if every player was paid equally.

The PFA have called it unlawful and unenforceable, so until it is decided by the courts, I think most clubs down in these leagues will carry on spending a little more if they can afford it.

 

[Tobes]

In league one and two, it's set at a club salary cap. In league one you can spend 2.5m each year and in league two you can spend 1.5m each year. Players can be paid whatever is agreed between themselves and the club, but with a full squad the maximum wage in league one would be £1,700 if every player was paid equally.

The PFA have called it unlawful and unenforceable, so until it is decided by the courts, I think most clubs down in these leagues will carry on spending a little more if they can afford it.

Yeah that’s it though the PFA are right, and we’re seeing clubs in those divisions pay ridiculous amounts of money to players at that level.

I read this piece in which of the clubs who responded the average wage per week in L1 was £4700, and in L2 nearly £2200. These are basic wages as well ffs. That’s utterly ludicrous and completely unsustainable.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/leaked-report-reveals-how-much-18169396

 

[Solid Air]

I have said on a number of occasions that i fail to see how having a 100+ fully pro clubs is sustainable .

 

[Archers Road]

Thinking about it though I’m fairly sure that they couldn’t get as far as putting an actual cap on an individual players basic wage level, as it’d not be legal. The only way they can salary cap is via a rule regarding wages as a percentage of turnover, which would merely favour the established ‘big’ clubs who have noses in the CL trough.

I also think there’s a distinct difference between acknowledging the need for a healthy football pyramid and merely throwing cash at it, whilst simultaneously removing things like the League cup. The EFL clubs should merely live within their means imo, yes they need a bail out now due to extenuating circumstances, and the PL probably have a moral obligation to help out, but so do the Govt. The stance at the minute is akin to Mr Ahmed’s Spar being under pressure due to COVID and the Govt insisting that Tesco’s bail him out.

Yeah, I’m not convinced the government has any obligation to a sport the upper echelons of which are awash with money. The money needed to protect small community clubs has to come from within the game imo.

The Tesco’s vs Spar analogy is interesting though. The role of government in a free market economy, is presumably to ensure a regulated market that allows Mr Ahmed at least a chance of competing. Which is the role of the Monopolies and Mergers Commission I presume. There are various things local and national government can do to protect Mr Ahmed, like strictly limiting the number of Tesco’s locals on the a High Street. Government appears to be failing in that regard at the moment.

 

[Archers Road]

In league one and two, it's set at a club salary cap. In league one you can spend 2.5m each year and in league two you can spend 1.5m each year. Players can be paid whatever is agreed between themselves and the club, but with a full squad the maximum wage in league one would be £1,700 if every player was paid equally.

The PFA have called it unlawful and unenforceable, so until it is decided by the courts, I think most clubs down in these leagues will carry on spending a little more if they can afford it.

The PFA are undoubtedly the worst Trade Union in history.

 

[Solid Air]

The PFA are undoubtedly the worst Trade Union in history.

pays well though

 

[PINKIE]

Yeah, I’m not convinced the government has any obligation to a sport the upper echelons of which are awash with money. The money needed to protect small community clubs has to come from within the game imo.

The Tesco’s vs Spar analogy is interesting though. The role of government in a free market economy, is presumably to ensure a regulated market that allows Mr Ahmed at least a chance of competing. Which is the role of the Monopolies and Mergers Commission I presume. There are various things local and national government can do to protect Mr Ahmed, like strictly limiting the number of Tesco’s locals on the a High Street. Government appears to be failing in that regard at the moment.

Yeah, agree with that Supermarket v Corner shop analogy. Ostensibly, the supermarkets have crushed the small business owner by supplying practically everything you used to be able to get on the traditional high St, and it's not just food. They now sell clothes, TV's, Phones, Toys, Insurance and banking etc. And they are able to under cut small businesses by 20%-30% and offer free parking. This is why High Streets and town centres are becoming ghost towns.

As in football, I don't think it's the responsibility of Tesco to bail out Mr Khan, but it is the responsibility of Govt to put proper checks and balances in place that ensure there isn't a monopoly or the conditions that allow big business to hoover up and put small independent shops out of business. There's a range of ways that they could do this, tax breaks, rate relief, quotas similar to housing where X% of new development has to have certain designation etc.

The unfettered capitalist model that has been applied to retail in the UK (and most of the western world) has seen our once thriving and interesting town centres turn into identikit towns at best and in a lot of cases has simply killed them off, with most towns now having out of town retail parks with the same old boring Costa, Poundland, Pets at Home, B&M warehouse style shops.

 

[Tobes]

Yeah, I’m not convinced the government has any obligation to a sport the upper echelons of which are awash with money. The money needed to protect small community clubs has to come from within the game imo.

The Tesco’s vs Spar analogy is interesting though. The role of government in a free market economy, is presumably to ensure a regulated market that allows Mr Ahmed at least a chance of competing. Which is the role of the Monopolies and Mergers Commission I presume. There are various things local and national government can do to protect Mr Ahmed, like strictly limiting the number of Tesco’s locals on the a High Street. Government appears to be failing in that regard at the moment.

Only how many of those clubs in the upper echelon are recording healthy annual profits? And this somewhat ignores the fact that they have also been hit hard by this crisis. The largest clubs are losing £3m per home game and I’ve seen estimates for what it’s currently cost the PL clubs at being circa £170m for the likes of Liverpool down to circa £30m for the lower lights of the division.

Also, the PL clubs aren’t really operating in direct competition with the EFL clubs, they’re merely the pinnacle of the game. Having secured huge TV revenue off the back of their collective product. They have a moral responsibility to help out here, but the idea that the entire issue should sit with them for what is a force majeure is bonkers imo.

 

[Tobes]

I have said on a number of occasions that i fail to see how having a 100+ fully pro clubs is sustainable .

I think they can operate as professional outfits but what they can’t do is pay £250k a year to L1 players and over 100 large a year to L2 ballers. Operate within your means and match expenditure to income it’s a fundamental basic of business ffs. Yet we’re being told that they should have a bigger slice of the PL pie, and this will somehow solve their issues, only it won’t, as it’ll just further drive up those already ludicrous wage levels and they’ll remain as skint as they are now only with a higher total revenue.

 

[PINKIE]

I think they can operate as professional outfits but what they can’t do is pay £250k a year to L1 players and over 100 large a year to L2 ballers. Operate within your means and match expenditure to income it’s a fundamental basic of business ffs. Yet we’re being told that they should have a bigger slice of the PL pie, and this will somehow solve their issues, only it won’t, as it’ll just further drive up those already ludicrous wage levels and they’ll remain as skint as they are now only with a higher total revenue.

Yep cut your cloth accordingly. Same applies to some PL clubs too.

 

[brb]

The EFL clubs should merely live within their means imo, yes they need a bail out now due to extenuating circumstances, and the PL probably have a moral obligation to help out, but so do the Govt.

Exactly this ^^^ I wouldn't want my chairman getting money, just because...any funding should be merely for surviving the period of the coronavirus. From the article I posted up yesterday from the DM, it was mentioned certain lower league chairman supporting project big picture, straight away that's a problem, because it says it says to me, it's more based on financial growth and bank balances, than survival. No club has an automatic right to survive, but at the same time, we need to see some sort of insurance policy scheme, to help out in times of crisis.

 

[Solid Air]

I think they can operate as professional outfits but what they can’t do is pay £250k a year to L1 players and over 100 large a year to L2 ballers. Operate within your means and match expenditure to income it’s a fundamental basic of business ffs. Yet we’re being told that they should have a bigger slice of the PL pie, and this will somehow solve their issues, only it won’t, as it’ll just further drive up those already ludicrous wage levels and they’ll remain as skint as they are now only with a higher total revenue.

its not just L1 & L2 though as a fairly high proportion of the National league is as well though fully agree re the wages .

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

****ing Cardiff spending over a million quid on a loan deal.

Give it all to the frugal clubs like us

 

[Big Ern]

That only works at the top level if it’s global though, otherwise the top players leave and go where they can earn the highest guaranteed dosh.

It can work in the lower domestic leagues as the top talent is always going to move up the divisions anyway.

even then it won't work as there's too much regional difference in what that's worth, €100k in Spain is worth a lot more than it is in Germany or England.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

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Tossers.

 

[Libby]

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Tossers.

"As many as five English clubs could sign up to join it'


That's you lot out then.