FPP to take full control

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Gil T Azell said:
I thought Campbell had already failed the "fit person" role by the EFL and couldnt even produce the funds for to purchase Falkirk.
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Don't think he got as far as the fit and proper persons test last time, but could be wrong. Certainly the Falkirk move fell through and showed him up to be an absolute bullshitter. But he's back again and seems to be one of the only people who can get Donald to answer a phone!
 
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Bob Cheval said:
He hasn’t held up any deal though has he? There is a deal in place. It is just the terms of the deal that have been the sticking point. Donald wants to sell at Championship club price but any buyer is buying a League One club. Donald is within his rights not to sell if he thinks he can get the club promoted.
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I'm sorry mate, but if the terms of the deal are a sticking point,then there can't be a deal. I just don't understand, if Donald tried to change the deal after it had been agreed,why did the Americans then agree to advance a loan,and why did he accept it under the terms he did?
In my working life I negotiated deals in several different countries,including North America. When both parties were happy,often after many meetings and lots of negotiation, hands were shaken,everyone had a celebratory drink and lawyers were instructed to draw up the contracts. If anyone had come to me after that saying they wanted to vary the terms,particularly the price, they would have been smartly told to **** off, and I know the same would have happened if the reverse were true. These Americans are seriously connected individuals,who will have spent most of their working lives doing deals with some hard-headed businessmen in order to make their money. I just don't think it likely they would be ****ed about by a third rate chancer like Donald. If it happened as you suggest, why would the Americans then advance money to him rather than just call the whole thing off?
And,as for Donald,if he agreed a deal and then had second thoughts,coming back to put something else on the table,if that was not acceptable to FPP, he would have had a straight choice either to shrug his shoulders and accept the deal as it was or pull the plug on the whole thing,thinking he could get nearer his demands with someone else. If they turned his additional demands down,why would he then accept a loan from them, which effectively gave them some leverage in his subsequent attempts to sell to another interested party?
I do believe you,together with Smug, have posted honestly and genuinely throughout all this,so this is not an attempt to express any doubt in your knowledge of it. It's more myself just not understanding the chain of events and my instincts telling me there's something feeling not quite right.
 
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sad-eyed prophet said:
I'm sorry mate, but if the terms of the deal are a sticking point,then there can't be a deal. I just don't understand, if Donald tried to change the deal after it had been agreed,why did the Americans then agree to advance a loan,and why did he accept it under the terms he did?
In my working life I negotiated deals in several different countries,including North America. When both parties were happy,often after many meetings and lots of negotiation, hands were shaken,everyone had a celebratory drink and lawyers were instructed to draw up the contracts. If anyone had come to me after that saying they wanted to vary the terms,particularly the price, they would have been smartly told to **** off, and I know the same would have happened if the reverse were true. These Americans are seriously connected individuals,who will have spent most of their working lives doing deals with some hard-headed businessmen in order to make their money. I just don't think it likely they would be ****ed about by a third rate chancer like Donald. If it happened as you suggest, why would the Americans then advance money to him rather than just call the whole thing off?
And,as for Donald,if he agreed a deal and then had second thoughts,coming back to put something else on the table,if that was not acceptable to FPP, he would have had a straight choice either to shrug his shoulders and accept the deal as it was or pull the plug on the whole thing,thinking he could get nearer his demands with someone else. If they turned his additional demands down,why would he then accept a loan from them, which effectively gave them some leverage in his subsequent attempts to sell to another interested party?
I do believe you,together with Smug, have posted honestly and genuinely throughout all this,so this is not an attempt to express any doubt in your knowledge of it. It's more myself just not understanding the chain of events and my instincts telling me there's something feeling not quite right.
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Well there is some stuff I definitely know and some stuff I strongly suspect but to 100% confirm it would be a little awkward. But there was definitely a deal that was basically done bar the formalities. What I strongly suspect is that SD thought he could get promotion from League One anyway and so wanted a ‘Championship price’. If I had bought SAFC I would probably back myself to get them promoted as well to be honest. I mean who wouldn’t? But if you are a buyer you don’t want to pay for something that hasn’t happened yet. So the deal was structured not as a straight buyout but with this loan that can convert into equity. If SAFC gets promoted, I presume that triggers the full buy-out at a Championship price (which SD would therefore deserve). If not, then presumably there is also a time at which the alternative scenario is triggered, ie FPP get to buy at a League One price. But SD loses money in that scenario which is why he is desperately trying to find a higher offer from someone else. Which he has the right to do.

It is incorrect to say that FPP walked away or that there was no deal. There was a deal - just maybe not the clean, quick takeover that people expected it to be. My gut feel is that FPP will still end up as owners but the timeframe for that is probably the length of time that SD can keep things running in League One. The lockdown must have made that a lot shorter I would imagine. But it’s like buying a house. There is no point being angry at a seller for not accepting your offer.
 
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Bob Cheval said:
Well there is some stuff I definitely know and some stuff I strongly suspect but to 100% confirm it would be a little awkward. But there was definitely a deal that was basically done bar the formalities. What I strongly suspect is that SD thought he could get promotion from League One anyway and so wanted a ‘Championship price’. If I had bought SAFC I would probably back myself to get them promoted as well to be honest. I mean who wouldn’t? But if you are a buyer you don’t want to pay for something that hasn’t happened yet. So the deal was structured not as a straight buyout but with this loan that can convert into equity. If SAFC gets promoted, I presume that triggers the full buy-out at a Championship price (which SD would therefore deserve). If not, then presumably there is also a time at which the alternative scenario is triggered, ie FPP get to buy at a League One price. But SD loses money in that scenario which is why he is desperately trying to find a higher offer from someone else. Which he has the right to do.

It is incorrect to say that FPP walked away or that there was no deal. There was a deal - just maybe not the clean, quick takeover that people expected it to be. My gut feel is that FPP will still end up as owners but the timeframe for that is probably the length of time that SD can keep things running in League One. The lockdown must have made that a lot shorter I would imagine. But it’s like buying a house. There is no point being angry at a seller for not accepting your offer.
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Agree, seems the most likely scenario
 
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Bob Cheval said:
Well there is some stuff I definitely know and some stuff I strongly suspect but to 100% confirm it would be a little awkward. But there was definitely a deal that was basically done bar the formalities. What I strongly suspect is that SD thought he could get promotion from League One anyway and so wanted a ‘Championship price’. If I had bought SAFC I would probably back myself to get them promoted as well to be honest. I mean who wouldn’t? But if you are a buyer you don’t want to pay for something that hasn’t happened yet. So the deal was structured not as a straight buyout but with this loan that can convert into equity. If SAFC gets promoted, I presume that triggers the full buy-out at a Championship price (which SD would therefore deserve). If not, then presumably there is also a time at which the alternative scenario is triggered, ie FPP get to buy at a League One price. But SD loses money in that scenario which is why he is desperately trying to find a higher offer from someone else. Which he has the right to do.

It is incorrect to say that FPP walked away or that there was no deal. There was a deal - just maybe not the clean, quick takeover that people expected it to be. My gut feel is that FPP will still end up as owners but the timeframe for that is probably the length of time that SD can keep things running in League One. The lockdown must have made that a lot shorter I would imagine. But it’s like buying a house. There is no point being angry at a seller for not accepting your offer.
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This is pretty much my feeling - we had a poor start to the season, so perhaps FPP were happy to bide their time a little, the loan to be used to help get promotion and to maintain their interest in the club.

I do wonder how Covid will affect promotion though - there are a lot of clubs who could be in real dire straights (the Ipswich chairman has said they'll have no money for transfers iirc), so the loan, if used well, could give us a huge advantage.
 
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Bob Cheval said:
Well there is some stuff I definitely know and some stuff I strongly suspect but to 100% confirm it would be a little awkward. But there was definitely a deal that was basically done bar the formalities. What I strongly suspect is that SD thought he could get promotion from League One anyway and so wanted a ‘Championship price’. If I had bought SAFC I would probably back myself to get them promoted as well to be honest. I mean who wouldn’t? But if you are a buyer you don’t want to pay for something that hasn’t happened yet. So the deal was structured not as a straight buyout but with this loan that can convert into equity. If SAFC gets promoted, I presume that triggers the full buy-out at a Championship price (which SD would therefore deserve). If not, then presumably there is also a time at which the alternative scenario is triggered, ie FPP get to buy at a League One price. But SD loses money in that scenario which is why he is desperately trying to find a higher offer from someone else. Which he has the right to do.

It is incorrect to say that FPP walked away or that there was no deal. There was a deal - just maybe not the clean, quick takeover that people expected it to be. My gut feel is that FPP will still end up as owners but the timeframe for that is probably the length of time that SD can keep things running in League One. The lockdown must have made that a lot shorter I would imagine. But it’s like buying a house. There is no point being angry at a seller for not accepting your offer.
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Bob, thanks, I know you can’t post all that you know, but I’m grateful for the information you are able to provide. My faith in my instincts is restored!!
It would seem, therefore,that those who think the deal with FPP was delayed, or even scuppered altogether, by Donald coming back afterwards and getting greedy, are incorrect in their assumptions.....would you agree?
 
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sad-eyed prophet said:
Bob, thanks, I know you can’t post all that you know, but I’m grateful for the information you are able to provide. My faith in my instincts is restored!!
It would seem, therefore,that those who think the deal with FPP was delayed, or even scuppered altogether, by Donald coming back afterwards and getting greedy, are incorrect in their assumptions.....would you agree?
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Well I am a bit more sympathetic to Donald on this. He did put up best part of £10m initially, has put up another £6m in the form of a loan. I think he means well though probably out of his depth. I also think that he isn’t actually doing this for the money - which may be part of the problem. He actually really wants this to work so he can carry on doing it. Selling out to FPP and moving on isn’t just about not making money, it is giving up the dream.

But he has a perfect right to try and sell it for the best price he can. A perfect right to try and do the best job he can. Don’t understand the hatred for that. Also, clearly FPP didn’t just walk away. We might not know all the details and the terms but think it is pretty clear they did not just walk away from the table.

The longer it goes on then clearly the lower the odds SD has of getting the club promoted. But my guess is that FPP end up as owners in the end. Only alternative scenario is someone comes in and overpays for the club and bails SD out. But seems a long-shot in the current environment.
 
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Bob Cheval said:
Well I am a bit more sympathetic to Donald on this. He did put up best part of £10m initially, has put up another £6m in the form of a loan. I think he means well though probably out of his depth. I also think that he isn’t actually doing this for the money - which may be part of the problem. He actually really wants this to work so he can carry on doing it. Selling out to FPP and moving on isn’t just about not making money, it is giving up the dream.

But he has a perfect right to try and sell it for the best price he can. A perfect right to try and do the best job he can. Don’t understand the hatred for that. Also, clearly FPP didn’t just walk away. We might not know all the details and the terms but think it is pretty clear they did not just walk away from the table.

The longer it goes on then clearly the lower the odds SD has of getting the club promoted. But my guess is that FPP end up as owners in the end. Only alternative scenario is someone comes in and overpays for the club and bails SD out. But seems a long-shot in the current environment.
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Thanks for your insight marra...much appreciated! For the first time in a long time, this is starting to make sense to me. Good post!
 
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@Bob Cheval just out of interest, have you asked your source whether the 'deal' was this loan-to-buy? It seems like the nomenclature between Loan/Investment/Takeover is fluid enough to be interpreted by people differently according to who they're describing it to.

I obviously agree with the vast majority of what you have said about how it was structured, ie: in spirit, I think they have an option to come on board if we get promoted and that's what you're saying. They would have to do the same amount of valuation/DD to get to this loan deal as to a full scale takeover.

I also agree with how you talk about Donald on this one because I think it's unfair to put this entirely at his door, primarily because I think FPP, for whatever reason they have, were more comfortable with this deal structure, one they've repeated since. He can't force them to make a different kind of bid, so it's unfair to say he should drop his price if that's not the decisive roadblock.

So is it not possible that the 'deal to buy us' was done in the eyes of some people (because it was this loan and their good faith expectation was that one day it would lead to a takeover), but that in the eyes of others, it fell over because they were expecting a traditional full scale takeover, making the subsequent loan seem like a climbdown? Is that a possibility you've broached with your contact?
 
Kittenmittons said:
@Bob Cheval just out of interest, have you asked your source whether the 'deal' was this loan-to-buy? It seems like the nomenclature between Loan/Investment/Takeover is fluid enough to be interpreted by people differently according to who they're describing it to.

I obviously agree with the vast majority of what you have said about how it was structured, ie: in spirit, I think they have an option to come on board if we get promoted and that's what you're saying. They would have to do the same amount of valuation/DD to get to this loan deal as to a full scale takeover.

I also agree with how you talk about Donald on this one because I think it's unfair to put this entirely at his door, primarily because I think FPP, for whatever reason they have, were more comfortable with this deal structure, one they've repeated since. He can't force them to make a different kind of bid, so it's unfair to say he should drop his price if that's not the decisive roadblock.

So is it not possible that the 'deal to buy us' was done in the eyes of some people (because it was this loan and their good faith expectation was that one day it would lead to a takeover), but that in the eyes of others, it fell over because they were expecting a traditional full scale takeover, making the subsequent loan seem like a climbdown? Is that a possibility you've broached with your contact?
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FFS mate. Why are you so invested in this? You've made your opinion known at least a hundred times. If you're right, you're right. And if you are right, I'm sure people will be more than happy to say so in the fullness of time. Why do you feel the need to respond (in great length, every time) to every opinion that differs from yours? It's like you've got some skin in the game other than supporting sunderland, which, presumably on here, we all do.
 
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Nonsense Potter said:
FFS mate. Why are you so invested in this? You've made your opinion known at least a hundred times. If you're right, you're right. And if you are right, I'm sure people will be more than happy to say so in the fullness of time. Why do you feel the need to respond (in great length, every time) to every opinion that differs from yours? It's like you've got some skin in the game other than supporting sunderland, which, presumably on here, we all do.
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'skin in the game'?? did you seriously use that expression?
 
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