Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%
  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%

  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
Now that is one hell of a great post an absolute pleasure to read!!!

Wanna hear something else, a bit crazy this one, the UK only a few years back finished paying back a loan taken out at the end of the slave trade for reparations, so taxes taken from our pockets, mine and yours, great you might think, rightly so.... Only the reparations weren't to the slaves, nor the families of slaves. This money was paid to slave owners as compensation for them having to give up their slaves

Thanks. Got to put the history degree to good use somehow.

Edit - and one small point of accuracy. 1833 was the end of the UK participation in the slave trade. It continued on elsewhere beyond this time of course, the Dutch in abolition took place in 1863 for example.
 
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It's a fair question. My take would be that if there is still a deep structural problem in society today as a result of actions in relatively recent history, then it is worth considering how we portray that history; through the education system, through public monuments, and beyond. When it comes to slavery, that history is far more recent than a GSCE textbook will have you believe; everything did not end with the passing of the abolition act in 1833. In 1833 the British Government spent £20 million - 40% of its total budget at that time - to pay compensate slave owners for their loss of earnings. [Let's put to one side the fact that the former slaves received absolutely nothing.] That debt was being paid off until 2015. Hopefully that gives you an idea of how close this history really is.

Of course this only deals with the immediate ending of slavery. The long shadow of the slave trade was the fundamental dehumanisation of anyone with black skin, which meant society was comfortable treating black people differently for over a hundred years after 1833, with protection in law around race discrimination only coming into existence in 1965. That is within the lifetime of many individuals posting on this board. No wonder this issue still has huge ramifications for the society we live in today, and it is hardly a surprise that those affected today by the brutality and long shadow of the slave trade might take issue with who we choose to edify in society today, be that through street names, statues or who we put on our bank notes.

By contrast, the impact of Boudica on the societal structure of today is much harder to see, and I'd suggest the example is puerile if we're being honest about it.

I'd challenge the notion expressed by a few posters that "we can't rewrite history". History is constantly contested, challenged and rewritten. By way of an unrelated example, the history of the Peasants Revolt of 1381 has gone from being seen by contemporary historians and society as an unwarranted uprising; to being seen by later historians as a rightful uprising of the poorest in society; to being seen as a bourgeois rebellion by modern historians. Likewise, how we view the history of the slave trade, Empire, and discrimination in the 19th/20th centuries will rightly be challenged and evolve.

To bring that into the current debate, challenging how we discuss and display those who grew rich on the back of slavery is, to my mind, right and certainly unsurprising. In the case of the Colston statue, if that is through putting it into a museum so people can still learn about the history without it being glorified, fine, although I particularly like the Banksy suggestion of capturing the moment of the statue being pulled down, which of course is now history itself. Changing the wording beneath the statue would be a minimum response, which itself has been debated for years by the local council with many blocking the changes.
Excellent post. Very well written
 
It's a fair question. My take would be that if there is still a deep structural problem in society today as a result of actions in relatively recent history, then it is worth considering how we portray that history; through the education system, through public monuments, and beyond. When it comes to slavery, that history is far more recent than a GSCE textbook will have you believe; everything did not end with the passing of the abolition act in 1833. In 1833 the British Government spent £20 million - 40% of its total budget at that time - to pay compensate slave owners for their loss of earnings. [Let's put to one side the fact that the former slaves received absolutely nothing.] That debt was being paid off until 2015. Hopefully that gives you an idea of how close this history really is.

Of course this only deals with the immediate ending of slavery. The long shadow of the slave trade was the fundamental dehumanisation of anyone with black skin, which meant society was comfortable treating black people differently for over a hundred years after 1833, with protection in law around race discrimination only coming into existence in 1965. That is within the lifetime of many individuals posting on this board. No wonder this issue still has huge ramifications for the society we live in today, and it is hardly a surprise that those affected today by the brutality and long shadow of the slave trade might take issue with who we choose to edify in society today, be that through street names, statues or who we put on our bank notes.

By contrast, the impact of Boudica on the societal structure of today is much harder to see, and I'd suggest the example is puerile if we're being honest about it.

I'd challenge the notion expressed by a few posters that "we can't rewrite history". History is constantly contested, challenged and rewritten. By way of an unrelated example, the history of the Peasants Revolt of 1381 has gone from being seen by contemporary historians and society as an unwarranted uprising; to being seen by later historians as a rightful uprising of the poorest in society; to being seen as a bourgeois rebellion by modern historians. Likewise, how we view the history of the slave trade, Empire, and discrimination in the 19th/20th centuries will rightly be challenged and evolve.

To bring that into the current debate, challenging how we discuss and display those who grew rich on the back of slavery is, to my mind, right and certainly unsurprising. In the case of the Colston statue, if that is through putting it into a museum so people can still learn about the history without it being glorified, fine, although I particularly like the Banksy suggestion of capturing the moment of the statue being pulled down, which of course is now history itself. Changing the wording beneath the statue would be a minimum response, which itself has been debated for years by the local council with many blocking the changes.

Yes, you cannot change history but you can narrate it post-event in different ways. I think it's clear that the school curriculum should contain more balance about the British Empire than it did in the past. The good and the bad, and there was both. I don't think that means all students must learn in detail about tribal Africa 200-400 years ago (although this could certainly be a separate option for those interested). I don't agree with you about Boudica. How do you teach children about the Roman occupation without mentioning Boudica? I'm assuming you won't ignore the Romans.

As to statues, not a single one should be destroyed in my view because they themselves reflect history even from a jaundiced viewpoint (that itself is history). The worse offenders can have their statues moved to museums by consent of the local population. But to take a statue of Sir Francis Drake down, who led the defence of the Realm against the Spanish Armada, is nonsense. Slave trading was endemic 400 years ago, with both white and black slave masters. If Drake goes, surely Elizabeth I should be a villain for presiding over a reign where offenders were hung, drawn and quartered. And then we're into Pol Pot territory. 2020 is Year Zero.
 
Yes, you cannot change history but you can narrate it post-event in different ways. I think it's clear that the school curriculum should contain more balance about the British Empire than it did in the past. The good and the bad, and there was both. I don't think that means all students must learn in detail about tribal Africa 200-400 years ago (although this could certainly be a separate option for those interested). I don't agree with you about Boudica. How do you teach children about the Roman occupation without mentioning Boudica? I'm assuming you won't ignore the Romans.

As to statues, not a single one should be destroyed in my view because they themselves reflect history even from a jaundiced viewpoint (that itself is history). The worse offenders can have their statues moved to museums by consent of the local population. But to take a statue of Sir Francis Drake down, who led the defence of the Realm against the Spanish Armada, is nonsense. Slave trading was endemic 400 years ago, with both white and black slave masters. If Drake goes, surely Elizabeth I should be a villain for presiding over a reign where offenders were hung, drawn and quartered. And then we're into Pol Pot territory. 2020 is Year Zero.

I think we're in broad agreement. Just for the sake of clarity, my point on Boudica is that her statue is less controversial today - despite her mass killings - as her life doesn't directly impact on the lives of individuals today, in contrast to Colston and his contemporaries, whose decisions most certainly are still felt by many today. I absolutely do think Boudica should be taught about and talked about! We're in agreement on the curriculum and that no statue should be destroyed. How we display them, and where, is the right discussion I think.
 
Yes, you cannot change history but you can narrate it post-event in different ways. I think it's clear that the school curriculum should contain more balance about the British Empire than it did in the past. The good and the bad, and there was both. I don't think that means all students must learn in detail about tribal Africa 200-400 years ago (although this could certainly be a separate option for those interested). I don't agree with you about Boudica. How do you teach children about the Roman occupation without mentioning Boudica? I'm assuming you won't ignore the Romans.

As to statues, not a single one should be destroyed in my view because they themselves reflect history even from a jaundiced viewpoint (that itself is history). The worse offenders can have their statues moved to museums by consent of the local population. But to take a statue of Sir Francis Drake down, who led the defence of the Realm against the Spanish Armada, is nonsense. Slave trading was endemic 400 years ago, with both white and black slave masters. If Drake goes, surely Elizabeth I should be a villain for presiding over a reign where offenders were hung, drawn and quartered. And then we're into Pol Pot territory. 2020 is Year Zero.

Here you go another great post, find the middle ground, find a way forward, and I think this is the way things will go towards as well. Something I think is a bit disturbing about the last couple of weeks is that I'm not actually sure we would be making the progress that appears to be happening if it wasn't for the actions of the unlawful element which isn't right at all. I wish these sort of discussions were having without it, black rights movements have been protesting for years and years, attempting to go through the right channels and being ignored. I know this point is US based but I still think relevant, Colin Kaepernick tried a peaceful protest on a stage he knew would get publicity, and whilst it got the movement noticed and more backing, it really didn't change a thing, other than him getting blacklisted from a sport he loved.
 
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Frontline Worker's lives matter too.
"One week we’re clapping the Emergency services and the next we’re attacking them and throwing glass bottles, fireworks and bikes at horses?"

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He hit a traffic light, as well you know.
 
It's interesting to note the 'Oxford Mob' re-igniting calls to remove Cecil Rhodes' statue again. I wonder how many BAME students who were awarded the Rhodes Scholarships and opportunities of a lifetime that brought them would be willing to rip up their degrees and return them in disgust? Sometimes principles can be a bit of an obstacle...
 
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It's interesting to note the 'Oxford Mob' re-igniting calls to remove Cecil Rhodes' statue again. I wonder how many BAME students who were awarded the Rhodes Scholarships and opportunities of a lifetime that brought them would be willing to rip up their degrees and return them in disgust? Sometimes principles can be a bit of an obstacle...

Jimmy Savile did a lot of charitable work.
 
It's a fair question. My take would be that if there is still a deep structural problem in society today as a result of actions in relatively recent history, then it is worth considering how we portray that history; through the education system, through public monuments, and beyond. When it comes to slavery, that history is far more recent than a GSCE textbook will have you believe; everything did not end with the passing of the abolition act in 1833. In 1833 the British Government spent £20 million - 40% of its total budget at that time - to pay compensate slave owners for their loss of earnings. [Let's put to one side the fact that the former slaves received absolutely nothing.] That debt was being paid off until 2015. Hopefully that gives you an idea of how close this history really is.

Of course this only deals with the immediate ending of slavery. The long shadow of the slave trade was the fundamental dehumanisation of anyone with black skin, which meant society was comfortable treating black people differently for over a hundred years after 1833, with protection in law around race discrimination only coming into existence in 1965. That is within the lifetime of many individuals posting on this board. No wonder this issue still has huge ramifications for the society we live in today, and it is hardly a surprise that those affected today by the brutality and long shadow of the slave trade might take issue with who we choose to edify in society today, be that through street names, statues or who we put on our bank notes.

By contrast, the impact of Boudica on the societal structure of today is much harder to see, and I'd suggest the example is puerile if we're being honest about it.

I'd challenge the notion expressed by a few posters that "we can't rewrite history". History is constantly contested, challenged and rewritten. By way of an unrelated example, the history of the Peasants Revolt of 1381 has gone from being seen by contemporary historians and society as an unwarranted uprising; to being seen by later historians as a rightful uprising of the poorest in society; to being seen as a bourgeois rebellion by modern historians. Likewise, how we view the history of the slave trade, Empire, and discrimination in the 19th/20th centuries will rightly be challenged and evolve.

To bring that into the current debate, challenging how we discuss and display those who grew rich on the back of slavery is, to my mind, right and certainly unsurprising. In the case of the Colston statue, if that is through putting it into a museum so people can still learn about the history without it being glorified, fine, although I particularly like the Banksy suggestion of capturing the moment of the statue being pulled down, which of course is now history itself. Changing the wording beneath the statue would be a minimum response, which itself has been debated for years by the local council with many blocking the changes.

The point about Boudicas statue was meant to be silly.....that exactly was how it was meant so glad you got it.
What people don’t seem to mention is that change has happened and is still happening in the way history is taught.
For example, at school in the 70’s everyone of us was taught about Florence Nightingale being ‘The lady of the Lamp’, now my kids come home talking about the good and great things Mary Seacole did. They come home talking about MLK, slavery etc.....things that I only touched on very briefly......

Again sorry for a quick ramble
 
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