Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Willhoops]

And so are you.

Go on, I will bite, who?

 

[Willhoops]

Good news the police will be charging and prosecuting those responsible for pulling down that statue.

So you are either saying that you support the slave trader or people should have left the statues of other figures including Hitler and Sadam Hussain where they stand and those responsible for pulling them down should have been arrested. By your logic it must be one of the two.

 

[ELLERS]

I have also witnessed abuse of Fash, that was in the late 80s, my comment was it has gone downhill in the last ten years ago, your timeframe is off.

You are also missing the issue, firstly just because something happened in America people all over the world can't stand up against it. The death of this man was the spark to ignite an existing issue that has not been addressed properly, that whilst more prevalent in certain Nations, is still an issue in others. Yet again you focus on the actions of the small minority, making it 'the issue' and ignore the rest of the protesters and what they are there for. I I've condoned these actions time and time again, I've said they are unacceptable, but repeatedly emphasised this is an unruly minority... yet you bring it up in every discussion, it just feels as though you are using the minority to ignore the majority and whilst if it was once or twice I could understand someone's frustrations, it seems as though you are using it to discredit the entire movement. Your Tarquin's comment also shows that.

Are you referring to all the looting that was going on in the US? Sorry but I have said the cop in the US was wrong and will be punished. It doesn't then need people to knock a woman officer off a horse in the UK in name of equality.
Actually I would also disagree in the last 10 years many black people have had fab opportunities. In my work and industry, I have seen many young ethnic people given the chance and thrive. That never happened much in the 80's and 90's. Many of my black friends would be appalled by some of those TV pictures.

 

[ELLERS]

So you are either saying that you support the slave trader or people should have left the statues of other figures including Hitler and Sadam Hussain where they stand and those responsible for pulling them down should have been arrested. By your logic it must be one of the two.

The more I read your posts the more I think you are one of those 'Tarquins'. Those idiots that vandalized a statue were wrong to do so. It was a criminal act and they will get found and prosecuted. (good stuff as well!)
You seem to think it was a good thing to do. You make out that you are some sort of peaceful protest that belongs to a group? What group this is about people protesting 'Racism' not organised groups.
Anyway, we will leave it there as this has become boring and not actually going anywhere. Time for a snack.

 

[Staines R's]

Just woken up and had so much to read through.

Before I jump in the shower can I just say that my mixed race kids have been given exactly the same education and opportunity as their white class mates, as did their mum, my mixed race wife.
My father in law, a black Trini, had disgusting overt racism directed at him for many years when he came over in the 60’s, but he says England still gave him the opportunity that he would never had at home and he now counts England as home (Though still wants to go back some day to see out his years)

Maybe my family have just been lucky.

 

[Willhoops]

The more I read your posts the more I think you are one of those 'Tarquins'. Those idiots that vandalized a statue were wrong to do so. It was a criminal act and they will get found and prosecuted. (good stuff as well!)
You seem to think it was a good thing to do. You make out that you are some sort of peaceful protest that belongs to a group? What group this is about people protesting 'Racism' not organised groups.
Anyway, we will leave it there as this has become boring and not actually going anywhere. Time for a snack.

Yeah you best leave it is all you have managed to do is insult me personally in a rather childish way, making assumptions about me, my reasons for wanting to be involved with the equality movement without knowing me at all, I find that frankly disgusting and says more about you than it does me. Oh you have also swerved my points after painting yourself into a corner.

Your mask has slipped we see you.

 

[ELLERS]

Your mask has slipped we see you.

I don't have a mask. You only see what you want. Which is weird as you are blinded by your views. The only thing that has slipped is yours with 'your group'. I noticed you wouldn't mention it? why not if it's an okay group why not say?
As I said I don't go around attacking Police or defacing monuments. The vast majority of the people would agree with me.

 

[Quite Possibly Raving]

Just woken up and had so much to read through.

Before I jump in the shower can I just say that my mixed race kids have been given exactly the same education and opportunity as their white class mates, as did their mum, my mixed race wife.
My father in law, a black Trini, had disgusting overt racism directed at him for many years when we came over in the 60’s, but he says England still gave him the opportunity that he would never had at home and he now counts England as home (Though still wants to go back some day to see out his years)

Maybe my family have just been lucky.

I keep meaning to dig out the stats to look at the difference between how different ethnic groups are treated by various institutions - education system, police, courts, employment, politics etc. In this type of discussion I do tend to think it's more helpful to look at the big picture than the individual n=1 stories, be they good experiences like yours (which I'm happy to read!) or negative experiences, which many are also sharing.

Not sure I can be bothered though as it will take a good half hour to collate from various sources, and from reading through the last few pages, I'm not sure anyone posting will actually change their mind on the issue. Those who want to dismiss this as 'some issue in America' will no doubt continue to do so. There are plenty of books out there which go through the challenge of structural racism in more depth - I'd recommend the Akala book I referenced a few pages back - for those who are interested in exploring the topic further.

And before anyone says it, yes there are poor white people in the UK. The idea that this somehow means that there is no UK issue with structural racism is entirely absurd. If, in a fictional land, 99% of purple people are rich and 99% of green people are poor and discriminated against, it doesn't mean there isn't a structural issue in that society simply because 1% of purple people are poor. I'm well aware the statistics aren't that clean cut, but it demonstrates the logical fallacy being put forward that white privilege is 'made up' because there are some poor white people.

 

[Willhoops]

I don't have a mask. You only see what you want. Which is weird as you are blinded by your views. The only thing that has slipped is yours with 'your group'. I noticed you wouldn't mention it? why not if it's an okay group why not say?
As I said I don't go around attacking Police or defacing monuments. The vast majority of the people would agree with me.

I don't give any personal information on here due to what I have seen happen on the wider 606 community from doxxing which I have already explained today, Watford knows exactly what I'm on about there. On this page I have mentioned that I have condemned the actions of certain people who have attached themselves onto the protest, not sure what part of that you are failing to grasp, and why I need to repeat it time after time to you. It's as though you are trying to push a busted flush

However you still are avoiding to respond so I'll ask again

*I asked
Who am I lumping in the same basket? It's from comments on this page, you accused me of lumping people into the same basket, you have not clarified in the slightest who.

*I asked
So you are either saying that you support the slave trader or people should have left the statues of other figures including Hitler and Sadam Hussain where they stand and those responsible for pulling them down should have been arrested. By your logic it must be one of the two.

Again this comes from this page, certain context might go back a page, but it's all there. Why don't you answer?

Isn't it weird that I can have conversations with people on this thread with differing viewpoints, no problem at all, it remains civil and opinions are courtesy are respected, the only person where that breaks down is you. I strongly believe I am not alone in this frustration, and you have the audacity to accuse others of being on the wind up.

 

[Sooperhoop]

Just woken up and had so much to read through.

Before I jump in the shower can I just say that my mixed race kids have been given exactly the same education and opportunity as their white class mates, as did their mum, my mixed race wife.
My father in law, a black Trini, had disgusting overt racism directed at him for many years when we came over in the 60’s, but he says England still gave him the opportunity that he would never had at home and he now counts England as home (Though still wants to go back some day to see out his years)

Maybe my family have just been lucky.

Interesting, I'll put some personal perspective on it. I grew up in Brixton and lived there until I was 30. At school my two best mates were Deo, born in Guyana and Owen, born in Jamaica. When I was 11 my primary school class had 50% black pupils, almost unheard of in those days (1965). We all got on together as kids always do. I saw first hand racism directed at my mates and it was direct in your face stuff and it made me sick to hear it. I saw my father who was from Cyprus also racially abused by certain locals, spick, dago and wop being regular name calling.

In our street there were Irish, Italian, Greek, Hungarian, Yugoslav and various West Indian families and it was a great place to live despite the small minority of bigots. We would be in and out of each others houses, often we'd sample the different foods of these people and learn about their countries, customs and origins, it was part of an education no school could give you and something I'm fortunate to have experienced. But what school did give myself and my mates was opportunity, an opportunity to take something that would give us a chance in life. I know Deo and Owen both went on to be successful in their lives because they took that opportunity, sadly, too many didn't and I know of some of my old schoolmates that have had very troubled lives.

I worked for GLC/ILEA and much of my work was with schools and knowing what went on at some in the 80s and 90s showed that many of the BAME children, boys in particular often went off the rails in their teenage years, one black teacher I knew said their problem was often peer pressure from older tearaways that these boys looked up to. I could empathise with that as a number of black mates I had at school went their own way once they reached about 15, influenced by those a year or two older that had left school with no qualifications and little prospects. Education is the key to helping young kids of all backgrounds but they have to play their part as well, too many are lured by the 'Gangsta' profile. Social media is creating a monster that will be difficult to dismember but schools have to play a bigger role in the well known problem areas or we'll be revisiting this again and again in years to come...

 

[Willhoops]

I keep meaning to dig out the stats to look at the difference between how different ethnic groups are treated by various institutions - education system, police, courts, employment, politics etc. In this type of discussion I do tend to think it's more helpful to look at the big picture than the individual n=1 stories, be they good experiences like yours (which I'm happy to read!) or negative experiences, which many are also sharing.

Not sure I can be bothered though as it will take a good half hour to collate from various sources, and from reading through the last few pages, I'm not sure anyone posting will actually change their mind on the issue. Those who want to dismiss this as 'some issue in America' will no doubt continue to do so. There are plenty of books out there which go through the challenge of structural racism in more depth - I'd recommend the Akala book I referenced a few pages back - for those who are interested in exploring the topic further.

And before anyone says it, yes there are poor white people in the UK. The idea that this somehow means that there is no UK issue with structural racism is entirely absurd. If, in a fictional land, 99% of purple people are rich and 99% of green people are poor and discriminated against, it doesn't mean there isn't a structural in that society simply because 1% of purple people are poor. I'm well aware the statistics aren't that clean cut, but it points out the logical fallacy being put forward that white privilege is 'made up' because there are some poor white people.

Great post. I've listened to Akala a lot, speaks very well

 

[Staines R's]

I keep meaning to dig out the stats to look at the difference between how different ethnic groups are treated by various institutions - education system, police, courts, employment, politics etc. In this type of discussion I do tend to think it's more helpful to look at the big picture than the individual n=1 stories, be they good experiences like yours (which I'm happy to read!) or negative experiences, which many are also sharing.

Not sure I can be bothered though as it will take a good half hour to collate from various sources, and from reading through the last few pages, I'm not sure anyone posting will actually change their mind on the issue. Those who want to dismiss this as 'some issue in America' will no doubt continue to do so. There are plenty of books out there which go through the challenge of structural racism in more depth - I'd recommend the Akala book I referenced a few pages back - for those who are interested in exploring the topic further.

And before anyone says it, yes there are poor white people in the UK. The idea that this somehow means that there is no UK issue with structural racism is entirely absurd. If, in a fictional land, 99% of purple people are rich and 99% of green people are poor and discriminated against, it doesn't mean there isn't a structural in that society simply because 1% of purple people are poor. I'm well aware the statistics aren't that clean cut, but it points out the logical fallacy being put forward that white privilege is 'made up' because there are some poor white people.

Absolutely mate. Pointless putting up statistics as they can be manipulated to whatever suits your/our argument, and as you say, it isn’t can change any minds on here.

As you say, I myself can only talk from my personal experiences and the experiences of those close to me and those that I know.

Personally I think things are changing for the good, we’re not back in the bad old days of the National Front where working class white kids were suckered in and thought they were joining a righteous cause to win back their country, or the days of the SPG and bullying OB who stopped anyone who was black JUST BECAUSE they were black. Or the days when it was alright for Blacks, Asians, gays and Irish to be mocked awfully on TV by the likes of Jim Davidson and Bernard Manning.
I’m old enough to remember those days and look back in disgust.......

 

[ELLERS]

I don't give any personal information on here due to what I have seen happen on the wider 606 community from doxxing which I have already explained today, Watford knows exactly what I'm on about there. On this page I have mentioned that I have condemned the actions of certain people who have attached themselves onto the protest, not sure what part of that you are failing to grasp, and why I need to repeat it time after time to you. It's as though you are trying to push a busted flush

However you still are avoiding to respond so I'll ask again

*I asked
Who am I lumping in the same basket? It's from comments on this page, you accused me of lumping people into the same basket, you have not clarified in the slightest who.

*I asked
So you are either saying that you support the slave trader or people should have left the statues of other figures including Hitler and Sadam Hussain where they stand and those responsible for pulling them down should have been arrested. By your logic it must be one of the two.

Again this comes from this page, certain context might go back a page, but it's all there. Why don't you answer?

Isn't it weird that I can have conversations with people on this thread with differing viewpoints, no problem at all, it remains civil and opinions are courtesy are respected, the only person where that breaks down is you. I strongly believe I am not alone in this frustration, and you have the audacity to accuse others of being on the wind up.

yeah yeah just another generic answer. I have explained everything clearly. If you dont understand then that is your problem. I have nothing to hide and dont affiliate myself to groups other than QPR and the Tory party (which i still owe subs for). I just find it strange that you dont mention it ( you say its peaceful so what is the problem?).
One other thing Wills, when i had a disagreement with you before and i put you on ignore i seem to remember it being about demonstrations ( i believe you said you were going on it)... funny thing is i dont remember it being about racism? I will need to look back.

 

[Staines R's]

Interesting, I'll put some personal perspective on it. I grew up in Brixton and lived there until I was 30. At school my two best mates were Deo, born in Guyana and Owen, born in Jamaica. When I was 11 my primary school class had 50% black pupils, almost unheard of in those days (1965). We all got on together as kids always do. I saw first hand racism directed at my mates and it was direct in your face stuff and it made me sick to hear it. I saw my father who was from Cyprus also racially abused by certain locals, spick, dago and wop being regular name calling.

In our street there were Irish, Italian, Greek, Hungarian, Yugoslav and various West Indian families and it was a great place to live despite the small minority of bigots. We would be in and out of each others houses, often we'd sample the different foods of these people and learn about their countries, customs and origins, it was part of an education no school could give you and something I'm fortunate to have experienced. But what school did give myself and my mates was opportunity, an opportunity to take something that would give us a chance in life. I know Deo and Owen both went on to be successful in their lives because they took that opportunity, sadly, too many didn't and I know of some of my old schoolmates that have had very troubled lives.

I worked for GLC/ILEA and much of my work was with schools and knowing what went on at some in the 80s and 90s showed that many of the BAME children, boys in particular often went off the rails in their teenage years, one black teacher I knew said their problem was often peer pressure from older tearaways that these boys looked up to. I could empathise with that as a number of black mates I had at school went their own way once they reached about 15, influenced by those a year or two older that had left school with no qualifications and little prospects. Education is the key to helping young kids of all backgrounds but they have to play their part as well, too many are lured by the 'Gangsta' profile. Social media is creating a monster that will be difficult to dismember but schools have to play a bigger role in the well known problem areas or we'll be revisiting this again and again in years to come...

Fantastic post.....Agree absolutely about eduction being the key.

When you are young it’s hard to understand the pure stupidity and hypocrisy of being a paid up member of the National Front....but having a best mate who was black.

 

[Willhoops]

Actually Wills I have just remembered why I put you on ignore a while back... it had something to do with demonstrations and you going on one. I don't recall it being a racism demo.

yeah yeah just another generic answer. I have explained everything clearly. If you dont understand then that is your problem. I have nothing to hide and dont affiliate myself to groups other than QPR and the Tory party (which i still owe subs for). I just find it strange that you dont mention it ( you say its peaceful so what is the problem?).
One other thing Wills, when i had a disagreement with you before and i put you on ignore i seem to remember it being about demonstrations ( i believe you said you were going on it)... funny thing is i dont remember it being about racism? I will need to look back.

Please show where you have explained either of those points? I go on many protests, mentor for and have other involvement for groups relating to human rights issues, you are aware that if you are against racism you can be against or pro other issues as well, you are allowed to support more than one cause, it is allowed.

The reason I don't mention the group I went on a recent protest with is because it's a very localised group, the basics behind it are they are a human rights group, like many I associate with.

I think that addresses all the points you have made.

 

[Staines R's]

Please show where you have explained either of those points? I go on many protests, mentor for and have other involvement for groups relating to human rights issues, you are aware that if you are against racism you can be against or pro other issues as well, you are allowed to support more than one cause, it is allowed.

The reason I don't mention the group I went on a recent protest with is because it's a very localised group, the basics behind it are they are a human rights group, like many I associate with.

I think that addresses all the points you have made.

Honestly not having a go Wills, but are you sure you aren’t West London Willy ? I seem to remember having the self same discussion with him ages back......all about Protest, Trump and Tibet ?

 

[Willhoops]

Honestly not having a go Wills, but are you sure you aren’t West London Willy ? I seem to remember having the self same discussion with him ages back......all about Protest, Trump and Tibet ?

Nope, not me guv. I'm very much my own person, for starters I don't live in West London.

 

[Staines R's]

Nope, not me guv. I'm very much my own person, for starters I don't live in West London.

Nor did the fella I met.........ok, no worries

 

[Willhoops]

Nor did the fella I met.........ok, no worries

You've not met me, well not that I know of. I met 999's back at the England v Holland game a few years back if you want to compare notes

 

[Staines R's]

You've not met me, well not that I know of. I met 999's back at the England v Holland game a few years back if you want to compare notes

Was that the one at Spurs ?