Indeed mate, very rough.
It is always darkest just before the day dawneth, according to Thomas Fuller in 1650. Knew his onions that lad.
FPP to take full control
- Thread starter Whiteleas Wanderer
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It is always darkest just before the day dawneth, according to Thomas Fuller in 1650. Knew his onions that lad.
Trying to charge the RAWA for the the accountants fees for re-doing the documents which he said was completed 6 months previous.....it seems we are at a point now where all his own lies has backed him into a corner where he cant move......im not a doom and gloom merchant, I like to keep my glass half full but this fella in charge of our club is beginning to be found out. I think hes massively underestimated what he can get away with in terms of been in charge of a club supported by thick northerners
If he does we should set up a 'Crowdfunding' in the name of 'Legal fees, SAFC V Donald' so he knows he'll have a fight on his hands if he wants one. Whatever we think of ALS, RR, RAWA, etc, nows the time to stick together imo.
Totally agree Smug, we fans need to show solidarity right now, there really can’t be many people left who support this clown, whether that be through not renewing season cards and not buying merchandise from the shop.
As much as it pains me to say it and I really do not want to see our club damaged in anyway, but now is the time to take a stance against these muppets.
We should set one up to pay any extra fees for his accountants to get last years books submitted and documented now instead of the 6 months late option that they've taken, cannot do enough for a good owner
The crowdfunding thing isn't a bad idea at all. We need to out-PR him, it'd send a good message that people know and care about him taking the piss.
I'm not keen on that bit, mind. I know that you want to hit Donald in the pocket but it's the club that would suffer as well.
Yeah I really think that would be more likely to put off new owners than to drive them to take us on.
We can't let him undermine the good things about the club (ie: our massive support) because the people who want to buy us need to believe that is always going to be there through thick and thin.
We can't let him undermine the good things about the club (ie: our massive support) because the people who want to buy us need to believe that is always going to be there through thick and thin.
I do think that RAWA or WMS should organise a crowd funding thing to pay for any fees. Its time to show solidarity to what is going on and to not let anyone drive a wedge between the fan base which is something I think they have tried to do over the last few months. I know I would contribute to it.
I did a rough calc on administration in the event covid causes a fundamental problem with us yesterday. I was trying to work out if there's a sweet spot where we're losing enough money to force out Donald, but not enough to spook FPP. Hopefully this is readable.
I started all of the hypotheticals at the end of a season, ie: next April, on the assumption that we don't get promoted and missed the playoffs, so Donald has no hope left. At that point, Donald deliberately defaults on his loan to FPP and they have 2 weeks to decide if they're taking us on or not. Donald is out at this point.
So if we are losing £500k a month, that means that FPP are committing around £7m to us in league one before the next league year begins. Then we add on the $12m loan (almost £10m at today's exchange rate). That's effectively the price tha they're paying for the club, £17m. Not a bad price, but the club is in a considerably worse position than when they negotiated their deal which is probably not much more than that.
On top of that, they would need a quick and decisive rebuild, and if they're being serious about it, that's probably £5m or so that needs to be spent on players, and perhaps conservatively, a million more around the club on exec hires and pay-offs of the dross.
So let's add £6m on, but the ongoing extra wage costs may just offset any return to 'normality' from Covid, so if we're in League One, we'll pretty much continually lose money.
So that takes us to £23m that FPP would need to commit in that scenario, just for a single season in League one. If we don't get promoted at the first attempt, they will be adding on a lot of money each year (maybe £5m), depending on their initial spending and contracts.
Anyway, you can probably play around with the figures and find other scenarios, but I've seen people talk about administration/default and I'd be cautious before we assume that FPP (or anyone else) would jump in to save us in a much worse position than when they first negotiated with Donald. I don't think it's a magic bullet and it comes with the biggest risk of all, that if nobody comes in to absorb those costs, we lose everything.
I started all of the hypotheticals at the end of a season, ie: next April, on the assumption that we don't get promoted and missed the playoffs, so Donald has no hope left. At that point, Donald deliberately defaults on his loan to FPP and they have 2 weeks to decide if they're taking us on or not. Donald is out at this point.
So if we are losing £500k a month, that means that FPP are committing around £7m to us in league one before the next league year begins. Then we add on the $12m loan (almost £10m at today's exchange rate). That's effectively the price tha they're paying for the club, £17m. Not a bad price, but the club is in a considerably worse position than when they negotiated their deal which is probably not much more than that.
On top of that, they would need a quick and decisive rebuild, and if they're being serious about it, that's probably £5m or so that needs to be spent on players, and perhaps conservatively, a million more around the club on exec hires and pay-offs of the dross.
So let's add £6m on, but the ongoing extra wage costs may just offset any return to 'normality' from Covid, so if we're in League One, we'll pretty much continually lose money.
So that takes us to £23m that FPP would need to commit in that scenario, just for a single season in League one. If we don't get promoted at the first attempt, they will be adding on a lot of money each year (maybe £5m), depending on their initial spending and contracts.
Anyway, you can probably play around with the figures and find other scenarios, but I've seen people talk about administration/default and I'd be cautious before we assume that FPP (or anyone else) would jump in to save us in a much worse position than when they first negotiated with Donald. I don't think it's a magic bullet and it comes with the biggest risk of all, that if nobody comes in to absorb those costs, we lose everything.
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he certainly did, always in the top two in the leek show.
Excellent article. The only downside is that it provides more questions than answers unfortunately. which is not the author's fault, for clarity purposes.
Thankfully the suggestion that RAWA should pay for the accountants time was a good while ago and nothing came of it. Currently there aren't any major expenses but it's great that people would consider contributing if needed and if I ever hear of any likely major costs associated with speaking out on behalf of our fans then I'll pass the message onto the elected committee for consideration.
I would imagine (haven't heard anything but it wouldn't surprise me) that at some point RAWA will try and move to a paid membership (in addition to the free membership). I know it's been discussed before but at the first AGM it was voted down. I believe the aim was to get enough people so that a fund could be set up with the aim of eventual partial fan ownership. I was one of the members who voted against it, I like RAWA being free for everyone and wouldn't like to think some could effectively get a higher level of membership just because they can afford it. That being said I'm increasingly coming round to the idea that even if we had a Methven sized stake in the club it would be massive in terms of fan oversight. If they work on that and get it voted through it would be a way whereby people could contribute and make a genuine difference. Currently the risk is that the owners can decide to cut off communication and, other than the meetings they have to hold (which can be delayed and frustrated like they were when Bain was here), they can make it very hard to hold them to account. I'd expect to see another version of that idea proposed once things get back to normal, but I'd need to see a lot more details and safeguards etc before voting for it
Aye I think you are right about RAWA.
Also one of the issues with us purchasing shares is that he probably wouldn't value our cash over being able to do as he wants without us knowing
Also one of the issues with us purchasing shares is that he probably wouldn't value our cash over being able to do as he wants without us knowing
Aye I think you are right about RAWA.
Also one of the issues with us purchasing shares is that he probably wouldn't value our cash over being able to do as he wants without us knowing
Yeah, it's something that we might have to do in line with new buyers coming in, if they were prepared to have, say, 95% of the club instead of 100%. I can see the reasoning behind it but like I say I'd need a lot more detail. At the first AGM it was put forward but there wasn't much flesh on the bones. Most things got voted through and I got the impression they thought it would get through as well and then they could do the details having got the mandate. For me there are big questions like :
- how much do people have to pay for membership?
- what do they get for it (because I wouldn't want it to be at all elitist and want all to be able to just have free membership if they want, but if you're paying you'd need to get something over and above that, it's a hard balance)?
- what happens to the money if we don't get a stake (after all 5% even at £15m is about 750k so it wouldn't be an immediate thing) ; RAWA don't have massive expenses so people would need to know what happens to the money
- if we ever did get 5% what kind of a say would members get, some things would be confidential so would it just be the elected chair of RAWA who got to make the calls, and is that really what people want, especially if s/he can't then explain everything to the members who paid to get them there
- and the big one ; what happens if new owners come in and want to spend a lot of money, we couldn't match 5% of their spending in all likelihood so how would that work?
If they can answer all that I'd like to see it voted through. Fans have a stake in clubs around the world, I don't think we could ever be fully fan owned but at least having a place on the board should be an aim
Good man, sounds like you've thought it through well, those are my immediate concerns, and also share/voting rights, future dilution and the associated legal issues/costs.
Having been through a lot of this, if you lads do consider it, I'm happy to come along and talk privately about some of the issues you'll have to think about.
Having been through a lot of this, if you lads do consider it, I'm happy to come along and talk privately about some of the issues you'll have to think about.
@
Exactly, no funeral parades or stalking ...
... just a quiet powerful protest that engages the media without making us look like an angry mob.
Exactly, no funeral parades or stalking ...
... just a quiet powerful protest that engages the media without making us look like an angry mob.
As always a great informative post with lots of good points raised.
I really think that now is the time for RAWA to up the game slightly in with WMS. WMS have been very vocal in their criticism of SD,CM and JS and quite rightly so. The lack of openness is at silly levels now and the post last night just confirmed that.
I totally agree about a paid membership and it not being seen as a super fan/elitest in any way. It needs to be handled in the right way, but if there is a way to make paid membership help to get questions raised and to speed up processes, it should be looked at. There of course should be a free membership also as it is meant to be a fans group and some fans literally live for Sunderland and fore-go a lot in life to go to the match. I am lucky in that it is something that adds to my life and something that I am happy to pay.
I would be happy to do whatever was neccesary to try and get a bigger voice in the club and even to get to a place where RAWA held a 1% part of the club, but I appreciate that it will be difficult to achieve. Maybe we should ask SD for a stake in Madrox. I'll chuck a £1 in for 20%.