Jose the Scapegoat

[Spurlock]

Jose/Poch first 16 games in the PL for us :

P 16 P16
W 8 W7
D 2 D3
L 6 L6
F28 F19
A22 A21

(will update)

Jose losses H: Liverpool 1-2,Chelsea 0-2, Wolves 2-3
Jose losses A: United 2-1, Soton 0-1, Chelsea 2-1

Poch losses H: Liverpool 0-3,West Brom 0-1 ,Newcastle 1-2, Stoke 0-3
Poch losses A: City 4-1, Chelsea 3-0

Just from the teams and the scores it seems to me as though mentalities were similar and styles of play were producing similar types of results. Can you imagine Jose losing at home to Stoke 3 nil and the reaction? Poch’s Spurs lost to the Toon and ****ty West Brom in his first 16 games also. The rest? We always lose to them..it’s a mentality thing at the club.

FA Cup:
Jose out at 5th round at Home to Norwich(bottom of PL) 1-1 aet on pens
Poch out at 4th round at Home to Lesta(bottom of PL) 1-2 after 90 mins

cant remember the massive meltdowns tbh

League Cup:
Jose joined when we were already out 3-0 to Colchester
Poch got to final

Europe:
Jose’s Spurs currently trailing 1-0 in the first knockout stage(last 16) of the CL
Poch out in first knockout stage(last 32) of Europa League 3-1 agg to Fiorentina having drawn the home fixture 1-1

Poch managed all the European games, Jose joined when we were 4 games in and in the **** looking like we might not qualify

In depth:

Poch joined at the beginning of the season to lead a revolution with 7 fresh signings and striking options a plenty with Kane scoring 24 that season and Adebayor/Soldado on the bench. Eriksen and Chadli got 10 and 11 respectively, from midfield that season...Andros Townsend next with 6...everyone fresh and looking forward to something new

Midfield available : Paulinho, Dier,Chadli, Eriksen, Townsend, Capoue, Stambouli, Dembele,Mason, Bentaleb, Winks, Onomah

His defensive options were Jan, Toby, Walker, Rose,Davies, Chiricas, Fazio, Kabul. All looking forward to new careers, fresh, youthful...good to go with some coaching

in goal - hot property Hugo Lloris

Make of that what you want to, we were all their to feel the dynamics of that period so we know what the vibe was at the club on the whole

Jose joined when the freshness of our golden era was coming to a swift end...bad vibes...players who were our linchpins in our golden period wanting to move, others wanting new contracts and some sort of parity with a now established Golden boy in Kane. Question marks over our star players futures (in comparison to Poch’s era where we had sold our star asset already and all the newbies were looking ahead with us) due to a lack of silverware. We wee also fighting for our lives in the CL. New players that seemed to be struggling to settle. Animosity and bad vibes created by our sudden decline and loss of Poch and injuries galore as we all know all over the pitch and the resulting moods and their affects cannot be under estimated. After all Jose gets lambasted for being moody and it’s negative affects so what about the negative vibes and their affects that have seeped into the pores of our club just because we got Jose?

Football styles, drills etc etc need longer than 4/5/6 months and certainly require a pre season

make of the stats, dynamics, environment at Spurs during both periods whatever you want...we were present then and we are present now

COYS

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

There's two things the team needs right now: confidence and direction

The problem is that those are the two things which are missing, as the lack of clear direction for the team with ever-changing formations and players being deployed in random positions is not going to generate the former - and bringing up injuries isn't a valid excuse, as we were chopping and changing long before Kane, Son or Sissoko got crocked

Early in the season it was possible to divide the squad into two camps, Team Gives A **** and Team Couldn't Give A ****, and to a degree Poch was picking teams that primarily featured the former (albeit not entirely, as at least one of Rose, Eriksen, Vertonghen or Alderweireld was guaranteed to start every match) and the hope was that Steptonho would follow this pattern...but by and large he hasn't, because while we moved on Eriksen and Wanyama while made Rose somebody else's problem for half a season we still have Alderweireld shrugging his way through his defensive duties even though this is guaranteed to be costly with Aurier spending all his time in the opponent's half and Lucas wandering off doing his own thing - but what makes it that bit more aggravating is the likes of Skipp and Parrott are hungry yet get overlooked time and again

...and, yes, I did notice that Parrott missed a penalty the other night, which the Reddit crowd are using as an excuse to say we should sell him to Celtic already, but watch Parrott's performance from the other night again and you see a player overcompensating in an effort to impress, which he is far less likely to have done if he was given a few minutes here and there in the cup games against Middlesbrough and Southampton and wasn't the basis of the current manager slagging off the fanbase a day or so before the match

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

I'm not getting the point of comparing Mourinho to former managers or referring to what he was in the past. All I want him to do, for now, is to put out a line-up that uses players who are the fittest that we have in their best positions and do more than sit back and wait for Burnley to score from a corner or set piece.

If he can make best use of whatever we have on the bench and stir himself to coach from the sidelines with some heart, that'll do for now. He's got huge problems but he's making others for himself, like ignoring Skippy for months. Finally he played him...and surprise, surprise...he did really well and showed up quite a few others who have played this season. Leaviing it so long to put him in was ****ing nuts.

Having played a high proportion of the fit players at the club for 2 hours on Wednesday night and a number of them having to come off or sustain injury, I'm not expecting much on Saturday. However, from now, I want him to finally use Skippy regularly and to get Parrott on the pitch more...even if it is a bit too early and he's only doing it to save Bergwijn and Lucas from being overplayed like we did to Kane and Sissoko.

He's here and it's a totally different set of circumstances than any other manager and my criticisms of him are not that he's not Pochettino or Keithy or Bill Nick. It's that he's been making poor selections and employing tactics that we don't have the players to do successfully. I don't feel that's unwarranted and it's a growing disenchanted camp for those reasons alone.

I can't think of many people on here who wanted him out on Day 1. I know a number of mates and family who did and still do. Believe me, they're rabid on the issue. Most of us on here want him to show us that we were wrong to have doubts...okay, major doubts in some cases. I can't see that as a problem. Having huge faith in him given his recent work is more unrealistic, in my view.

 

[The Changing Man]

...and, yes, I did notice that Parrott missed a penalty the other night, which the Reddit crowd are using as an excuse to say we should sell him to Celtic already, but watch Parrott's performance from the other night again and you see a player overcompensating in an effort to impress, which he is far less likely to have done if he was given a few minutes here and there in the cup games against Middlesbrough and Southampton and wasn't the basis of the current manager slagging off the fanbase a day or so before the match

He did miss it but he put his hand up and said he wanted to take one, that shows belief and who would have blamed him if he had looked down as Jose asked for volunteers and hoped that his more experienced team mates would oblige. Kane missed a penalty in open play in a European match (Hearts?), I know it wasn't a shoot out, but long term it did him no harm.

 

[Spurlock]

I'm not getting the point of comparing Mourinho to former managers or referring to what he was in the past. All I want him to do, for now, is to put out a line-up that uses players who are the fittest that we have in their best positions and do more than sit back and wait for Burnley to score from a corner or set piece.

If he can make best use of whatever we have on the bench and stir himself to coach from the sidelines with some heart, that'll do for now. He's got huge problems but he's making others for himself, like ignoring Skippy for months. Finally he played him...and surprise, surprise...he did really well and showed up quite a few others who have played this season. Leaviing it so long to put him in was ****ing nuts.

Having played a high proportion of the fit players at the club for 2 hours on Wednesday night and a number of them having to come off or sustain injury, I'm not expecting much on Saturday. However, from now, I want him to finally use Skippy regularly and to get Parrott on the pitch more...even if it is a bit too early and he's only doing it to save Bergwijn and Lucas from being overplayed like we did to Kane and Sissoko.

He's here and it's a totally different set of circumstances than any other manager and my criticisms of him are not that he's not Pochettino or Keithy or Bill Nick. It's that he's been making poor selections and employing tactics that we don't have the players to do successfully. I don't feel that's unwarranted and it's a growing disenchanted camp for those reasons alone.

I can't think of many people on here who wanted him out on Day 1. I know a number of mates and family who did and still do. Believe me, they're rabid on the issue. Most of us on here want him to show us that we were wrong to have doubts...okay, major doubts in some cases. I can't see that as a problem. Having huge faith in him given his recent work is more unrealistic, in my view.

Compared him to the one former manager many seem to be struggling to get over. People still refer to Poch when evaluating Jose so it makes sense that it applies both ways. He was after all our last manager and he was extensively backed by the fans in a manner very different to the way Jose backed. Everyone bemoans every result and target the manager with what almost seems like ultimatums at times yet his start with us is very similar to the man who everyone sees as a blueprint...that’s why I compare the 2

The rest of my OP backs it all up

You think wanting him out 4 months in is reasonable? I don’t and I think it’s fair to say I’m not making it up...the fan base is split not just on this forum but across many and obviously at the Stadium too.

You can’t hide from that fact

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

Compared him to the one former manager many seem to be struggling to get over. People still refer to Poch when evaluating Jose so it makes sense that it applies both ways. He was after all our last manager and he was extensively backed by the fans in a manner very different to the way Jose backed. Everyone bemoans every result and target the manager with what almost seems like ultimatums at times yet his start with us is very similar to the man who everyone sees as a blueprint...that’s why I compare the 2

The rest of my OP backs it all up

You think wanting him out 4 months in is reasonable? I don’t and I think it’s fair to say I’m not making it up...the fan base is split

Up until his comments to the gutter press post-game on Wednesday, I've not once said that I wanted him out. I didn't want him appointed but was prepared to see what he'd got for us.

On a football front, I'm unimpressed with a sense of impending failure but accepted that he was going to get the summer and opportunities to alter a tired squad. The fact that he's currently pressing on with playing a system that our players aren't suited to or fulfilling with any success, should worry fans. The fact that it's a system from another era should really worry them...but it's Levy's call

As I said earlier, I was ****ing fuming with his performance after Norwich. Telling the press that he's going to duck a fixture and that he hasn't told the board yet? **** off...it's Danny Rose Mk II and it's just a taste of how this is going to end, with Mourinho running his mouth to the press and briefing how the world's against him.

I'm not one for that bollocks...but in many respects, I don't blame Mourinho. He's doing what he always does. This can squarely be laid at the feet of Levy for appointing him.

 

[Alfie Conn]

Agree with most of what has already been said on this topic, watching the game on Wednesday got me thinking what team Poch would have put out and I dont think it would have been a lot different
I'm not a fan of Jose or his tactics but would has thought that he would have drilled the team to his way of thinking , the defence had a decent game wed but for the life of me could not work out why he played Vorm, a keeper who's not played s 1st team game since Oct 18 Gazza must have shot his dog or something
Come the summer Levy and Enic had better back Jose if not it will be more of the same as this dross that's served up

 

[littleDinosaurLuke]

I think being knocked out of the F.A.Cup and being in a very tricky position in the CL hasn't helped him.
A Cup run buys him time and goodwill.
His selections suggest he is experimenting to see what works and what doesn't, but if he's written off the rest of the season for that then he's premature as a top 4 place is still realistic.
Ultimately though, nobody can assess any manager until they have been given a fair crack of the whip.
As Spurs need a period of rebuilding now, he needs 2-3 years not a few months.

 

[remembercolinlee]

Jose/Poch first 16 games in the PL for us :

P 16 P16
W 8 W7
D 2 D3
L 6 L6
F28 F19
A22 A21

(will update)

Jose losses H: Liverpool 1-2,Chelsea 0-2, Wolves 2-3
Jose losses A: United 2-1, Soton 0-1, Chelsea 2-1

Poch losses H: Liverpool 0-3,West Brom 0-1 ,Newcastle 1-2, Stoke 0-3
Poch losses A: City 4-1, Chelsea 3-0

Just from the teams and the scores it seems to me as though mentalities were similar and styles of play were producing similar types of results. Can you imagine Jose losing at home to Stoke 3 nil and the reaction? Poch’s Spurs lost to the Toon and ****ty West Brom in his first 16 games also. The rest? We always lose to them..it’s a mentality thing at the club.

FA Cup:
Jose out at 5th round at Home to Norwich(bottom of PL) 1-1 aet on pens
Poch out at 4th round at Home to Lesta(bottom of PL) 1-2 after 90 mins

cant remember the massive meltdowns tbh

League Cup:
Jose joined when we were already out 3-0 to Colchester
Poch got to final

Europe:
Jose’s Spurs currently trailing 1-0 in the first knockout stage(last 16) of the CL
Poch out in first knockout stage(last 32) of Europa League 3-1 agg to Fiorentina having drawn the home fixture 1-1

Poch managed all the European games, Jose joined when we were 4 games in and in the **** looking like we might not qualify

In depth:

Poch joined at the beginning of the season to lead a revolution with 7 fresh signings and striking options a plenty with Kane scoring 24 that season and Adebayor/Soldado on the bench. Eriksen and Chadli got 10 and 11 respectively, from midfield that season...Andros Townsend next with 6...everyone fresh and looking forward to something new

Midfield available : Paulinho, Dier,Chadli, Eriksen, Townsend, Capoue, Stambouli, Dembele,Mason, Bentaleb, Winks, Onomah

His defensive options were Jan, Toby, Walker, Rose,Davies, Chiricas, Fazio, Kabul. All looking forward to new careers, fresh, youthful...good to go with some coaching

in goal - hot property Hugo Lloris

Make of that what you want to, we were all their to feel the dynamics of that period so we know what the vibe was at the club on the whole

Jose joined when the freshness of our golden era was coming to a swift end...bad vibes...players who were our linchpins in our golden period wanting to move, others wanting new contracts and some sort of parity with a now established Golden boy in Kane. Question marks over our star players futures (in comparison to Poch’s era where we had sold our star asset already and all the newbies were looking ahead with us) due to a lack of silverware. We wee also fighting for our lives in the CL. New players that seemed to be struggling to settle. Animosity and bad vibes created by our sudden decline and loss of Poch and injuries galore as we all know all over the pitch and the resulting moods and their affects cannot be under estimated. After all Jose gets lambasted for being moody and it’s negative affects so what about the negative vibes and their affects that have seeped into the pores of our club just because we got Jose?

Football styles, drills etc etc need longer than 4/5/6 months and certainly require a pre season

make of the stats, dynamics, environment at Spurs during both periods whatever you want...we were present then and we are present now

COYS

Reasoned debate and a decent read...c'mon own up...who has hacked into spurlock's account ?

 

[KingHotspur]

You keep saying people have it in for Jose regardless of what he does, but on the flip side you keep being pro Jose and can’t seem to see his flaws or failings as a football manager.

He’s not the right man for Spurs and never will be. That’s not opinion, that’s a fact based on looking at 15 years of Jose Mourinho as a manager.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

You keep saying people have it in for Jose regardless of what he does, but on the flip side you keep being pro Jose and can’t seem to see his flaws or failings as a football manager.

He’s not the right man for Spurs and never will be. That’s not opinion, that’s a fact based on looking at 15 years of Jose Mourinho as a manager.

Kind of proving his point there!

 

[Dier Hard]

Realistically I think it’s too hard to predict who exactly is the right man for Tottenham. Essentially was Bill Nich the last right man for us?

Unless we sacked Poch and hired someone like Alan Pardew or Neil Warnock, I don’t really think there’s a certain type of manager who I’d instantly write-off for Spurs. I’ll happily admit I wanted van Gaal prior to announcing Poch and it’s safe to say I was extremely happy I didn’t get what I wanted. I never wrote Poch off though when he joined, I gave him a chance just like how I’m gonna give Jose one.

We’ve had a real mix of managers over recent years too, all with different styles.

Jol - The unknown assistant-turned-manager who laid the foundations for Spurs to rise from mediocrity.

Ramos - Great in big games, terrible everywhere else.

‘Arry - The old skool father figure who gave players freedom and confidence.

AVB - Someone who relied too heavily on Bale and couldn’t create a ‘team’ after the Welshman’s departure.

Sherwood - Probably better known for his gilet than his management skills. Although he did give Bentaleb his breakthrough whilst Kane got a run in the team late in the season too.

Poch - The dynamic young manager who helped transform Spurs into a real force on very mild budget.

With Jose we’ve now got someone who’s conquered Europe and many leagues but has generally needed the resources to do it. We’re his biggest test to date there’s no doubting that, we’re not the best side, we’re not the biggest club and we don’t have the largest transfer kitty. Personally I’m quite intrigued to see what he can do with a pre-season and more of his own signings. This season has been a right-off for me since November and so whilst I’ve criticised him where necessary (Winks-Sissoko vs Man Utd, failing in big games, Vorm vs Norwich, leaving Skipp out for so long) and will continue to do so if he makes similar bad calls, it won’t be until next season where I get a proper feeling about the guy as to whether he will or won’t be right for Tottenham. I want to see a Jose Mourinho Tottenham, right now this is pretty much the leftovers of the Mauricio Pochettino Tottenham (Gedson and Bergwijn aside).

 

[Spurlock]

Harry Redknapp was another who joined at a time when we had an imbalanced squad suffering from both confidence and form. He was a divisive character too. He muddled through to the end of that season with a few decent results, a few decent performances, but mainly just holding it together till he had a summer to properly do surgery. That summer he brought in a badly needed, serviceable target man, a centre back who could take the pressure off King, and a playmaker he knew to give us another dimension in attack, as well as the usual assorted youth.

He also cleared the deadwood, Zokora, Bent, Boateng etc. That following season was great, finishing fourth for the first time, battering Wigan (and a few other teams) those games v Arsenal and Chelsea, Bale emerging and Modric going into Beast Mode

It really does come down to how much backing Jose gets in the summer, until then I’m expecting us to drag ourselves through...it won’t be pretty...I can’t wait for the season to finish

 

[KingHotspur]

Kind of proving his point there!

I know but everything about him is wrong for Spurs.

I can’t remember who but someone said this the other day, Jose is the man when you need to get to get over the line, he’s not known for rebuilding squads. Plus his style isn’t easy on the eye and although we’re not a fan base expecting trophies, we expect to be entertained.

 

[Spurlock]

You keep saying people have it in for Jose regardless of what he does, but on the flip side you keep being pro Jose and can’t seem to see his flaws or failings as a football manager.

He’s not the right man for Spurs and never will be. That’s not opinion, that’s a fact based on looking at 15 years of Jose Mourinho as a manager.

I know we are not exciting often but I’ve honestly seen us put in some very exciting performances under Jose too. The win against Olympiacos comes to mind...personally I also enjoyed how Jose absolutely took advantage of City’s misfortune and we smashed them. Little bits give me hope for next season so I’m finding it difficult to be over critical especially when I keep on reminding myself we are going to have Kane and Son back and hopefully a fit Ndombele because he has got the skills. Lo Celso can only get better. Sessegnon will mature a bit more and settle. I’d sign Gedson on a permanent. Bergwijn is going to be class. I’m more than confident that these players are not going to be discouraged to attack...no chance.

We need a new defence...are the money men going to pay for it? Because once again, if they don’t, I won’t be expecting Jose to do much with it and he will be blameless because we all know our defensive lynchpins are on the decline

 

[Spurf]

It's funny that Spurlock and Brian seem to have swapped posting roles since the appointment of Jose. KingHotspur seems to have adopted a strange positive/negative role. I know he doesn't like to be positive but he has been forced to perhaps, and puts a negative spin on his positive comments. Quite a trick! Yes I am talking about our posters rather than Jose but that's because in many ways that's where the perception of a manager like Jose comes from. It seems to be all about his reputation more than what actually happens on the field. People talk about his methods being outdated. Really! Is that how football works? I don't think so. Sucessful teams often go against the norm and surprise teams. If you just adopt the latest fashion on playing methods you will simply be swallowed by the bigger teams. That's not what is happening in the PL at all. Sheffield United, Leicester. Wolves are all doing well by playing their own way not by mimicking City. Liverpool have their own methods which seem to work quite well.Teams often rely on one or two star players take them out and you are left with a shadow of their former selves. Kane & Son? Players can't play a particular style, again, really? These are elite players playing in the so called 'toughest league in the world' and they can only play in a certain way? I don't buy that either.

The last game against Norwich was awful and Spurs looked as though AVB was back in charge but in reality we have played in many different ways since Jose has turned up. Dier Hard's post sums it up best for me. Perhaps we should not all jump to conclusions about our new manager and perhaps not buy all the media claptrap that is written about him and wait to see what he does for us in the summer. There is no doubt Spurs are a hard watch at the moment but surely (and this may be a silly remark) surely we can't have such a magnificent stadium and produce such a banal team to use it. Can we?

 

[No Kane No Gain]

I mostly agree. Any new manager should be given time, they need a full season to be given a proper chance.

My main issues are that I never wanted Jose to be given time, as I don't think he's the right manager to rebuild our squad, and if anyone should be able to make an instant impact to get us top 4, it should be the manager getting paid £15mill a year.

Pochettino, didn't seem like he was going to be around much longer, even if we didn't sack him so whilst it was a sad way to end things it wasn't the worst call. I really don't like that we're throwing away all the things that worked for us in his reign though.

If we look at Levy's recent decisions; the Amazon doc, hiring Jose and scrambling for signings in January to get top 4. These seem to be more about quickly raising the club's profile and protecting it's value than any long term plan. I expect he and Lewis are planning to sell the club very soon, and that's a reality that really depresses me about the state of football at the very top. I hope I'm wrong but as much as they like to mention that they're Spurs fans, the decisions they're making are cold, sterile and strictly business. There's nothing that suggests to me they're trying to get us playing exciting football again, and nothing that suggests they're targeting reaching a CL final again. When it comes to selling up, our club is going to the highest bidder and that's the only metric that will count.

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

...It seems to be all about his reputation more than what actually happens on the field...

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I've not been concentrating on the fact that he used to manage other clubs or that he is an annoying twat most of the time. I don't think I've even mentioned the first one more than once. The second one comes up when he acts like one, which he does on a fairly regular basis. I know people who think this and won't have anything to do with the team whilst he's there. Just go for a drink in The Victoria during a home game and listen to them. I'm not one of them.

Until Wednesday, my problems with him were entirely based on what he did on the pitch. However, the **** about going to the directors to ask which game to throw...?

That's it for me. I'm out and will adopt the same mode that I did with 'The Bloke in the Coat'. He'll be gone sooner or later and we'll appoint someone more appropriate, who will do a far better job.

In the meantime, I'll call him as I see him based upon what he does for US. What he did for someone else, I do not care about.

 

[Dier Hard]

When it comes to selling up, our club is going to the highest bidder and that's the only metric that will count.

This is where I wish the rumours of a year or two ago would come true - A Steve Nash consortium.

Guy bleeds Tottenham and he's spoken in the past he'd love to buy shares/ own the club. His reputation in the USA would also likely be of benefit to the club from a business/ marketing perspective.

 

[KingHotspur]

Until Wednesday, my problems with him were entirely based on what he did on the pitch. However, the **** about going to the directors to ask which game to throw...?

That's it for me. I'm out and will adopt the same mode that I did with 'The Bloke in the Coat'. He'll be gone sooner or later and we'll appoint someone more appropriate, who will do a far better job.

In the meantime, I'll call him as I see him based upon what he does for US. What he did for someone else, I do not care about.

I couldn’t believe it when I heard that. Even for Jose, it’s an outrageous thing to say. But it all fits in with his negative, self pity attitude he has these days.