Match Day Thread Tottenham Hotspur v Wolverhampton Wanderers

[Dier Hard]

Fans calling for a complete overhaul of the squad are playing a high-risk game. Firstly, because it won't happen. Not under ENIC. And secondly (more importantly), because it isn't possible. We've seen it fail miserably before.

We have also seen it work though.

Over a period of roughly 2 years Martin Jol signed around 22 players between the 05/06-06/07 seasons, he also added Reid and Dawson in 04/05 not long after he took over from Santini. I'd say over half of those signed proved to be a success in some capacity with regards to helping us go from mid-table regulars to top 5 contenders, not forgetting a good number won us our last trophy: Huddlestone, Stalteri, Lennon, Tainio, Davids, LYP, Jenas, Ghaly, Ekotto, Zokora, Berbatov, Mido, Malbranque and Chimbonda.

I of course appreciate we're in a different level of market nowadays, we're also generally looking for more Berbatov's (proven quality) than say Lennon's (potential), albeit we should never rule a Lennon out if they can be got.

For what it's worth too, I certainly don't expect 10+ signings, an overhaul isn't just signing and selling, it's about promoting and demoting too (especially if we can't sell). Poch actually done this in his first season, he signed about 7 players and promoted the academy bunch into the team whilst he dropped a number of others. I don't see any reason why we can't look at doing similar this summer. Sign ideally 5-6 (RB, LB, CB or two, DM, ST etc), list for sale about 8-9 (I've said who I'd try to bin on numerous threads), promote the likes of Skipp, Tanganga and possibly Parrott/ Eyoma/ Cirkin/ Roles and demote those who we may have been unable to sell.

Jose and Levy have their work cut out in the summer. We can't afford to piss about any more like we've done in previous seasons. Our window of opportunity to become an elite side seems gone but we now need to ensure we can at least get back to being a contender otherwise the wheels will truly fall off if we have another season like this and Kane & Son plus possibly Gio and others think "**** this, I'm out".

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

We have also seen it work though.

Over a period of roughly 2 years Martin Jol signed around 22 players between the 05/06-06/07 seasons, he also added Reid and Dawson in 04/05 not long after he took over from Santini. I'd say over half of those signed proved to be a success in some capacity with regards to helping us go from mid-table regulars to top 5 contenders, not forgetting a good number won us our last trophy: Huddlestone, Stalteri, Lennon, Tainio, Davids, LYP, Jenas, Ghaly, Ekotto, Zokora, Berbatov, Mido, Malbranque and Chimbonda.

I of course appreciate we're in a different level of market nowadays, we're also generally looking for more Berbatov's (proven quality) than say Lennon's (potential), albeit we should never rule a Lennon out if they can be got.

For what it's worth too, I certainly don't expect 10+ signings, an overhaul isn't just signing and selling, it's about promoting and demoting too (especially if we can't sell). Poch actually done this in his first season, he signed about 7 players and promoted the academy bunch into the team whilst he dropped a number of others. I don't see any reason why we can't look at doing similar this summer. Sign ideally 5-6 (RB, LB, CB or two, DM, ST etc), list for sale about 8-9 (I've said who I'd try to bin on numerous threads), promote the likes of Skipp, Tanganga and possibly Parrott/ Eyoma/ Cirkin/ Roles and demote those who we may have been unable to sell.

Jose and Levy have their work cut out in the summer. We can't afford to piss about any more like we've done in previous seasons. Our window of opportunity to become an elite side seems gone but we now need to ensure we can at least get back to being a contender otherwise the wheels will truly fall off if we have another season like this and Kane & Son plus possibly Gio and others think "**** this, I'm out".

All of the management of the club need to be as one now for us to do the right business this summer. There's no place for disagreement or debate or doubt or we're royally ****ed. We identify suitable players, tap them up, make suitably appropriate offers to the clubs and Bob's yer uncle....

We need about 8 incomings (I'll settle for 6) and if we haven't got at least half of them done when the window opens, we're going to fall well short and be busing in Raziak's and Frazier 'Bloody' Campbell's on the final day...as we know only too well. January's window was archetypal Levy, faking to do a deal to placate his coach...and having zero intent of signing a short term fix.

Given the personalities involved, I'm not confident. However, if this ****s up, at least I get to play nice with Spurlock, because it is all on Levy. He can't claim to have been unaware that he was employing a Grade A, high maintenance, extremely demanding coach, who will promise to play nice and then bring out the knuckle duster.

He's your man, Daniel. You knew what happened at Chelsea and United. So, it's yours to manage... don't **** it up or the torches and pitch forks will be out.

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[PleaseNotPoll]

https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2020/03/...punish-mourinho-says-wolves-star-got-lucky-v/

Impossible to argue about the Neves foul, though the refs are no longer there to punish.
They've been told to "manage the event", which means they have to make things as entertaining as possible.

Interesting to note this sentence in the article:
"One of the most enjoyable Premier League fixtures of the season might have avoided the sort of VAR-led hullabaloo that has overshadowed many a top-flight clash of late but that does not mean it was not free of controversy."

Was there actually any VAR in this game? It wasn't evident at the stadium. There were no announcements or pauses in play.
I can think of a number of incidents outside of the five goals that should have been looked at. Were they?

 

[Citizen Kane.]

We have also seen it work though.

Over a period of roughly 2 years Martin Jol signed around 22 players between the 05/06-06/07 seasons, he also added Reid and Dawson in 04/05 not long after he took over from Santini. I'd say over half of those signed proved to be a success in some capacity with regards to helping us go from mid-table regulars to top 5 contenders, not forgetting a good number won us our last trophy: Huddlestone, Stalteri, Lennon, Tainio, Davids, LYP, Jenas, Ghaly, Ekotto, Zokora, Berbatov, Mido, Malbranque and Chimbonda.

I of course appreciate we're in a different level of market nowadays, we're also generally looking for more Berbatov's (proven quality) than say Lennon's (potential), albeit we should never rule a Lennon out if they can be got.

For what it's worth too, I certainly don't expect 10+ signings, an overhaul isn't just signing and selling, it's about promoting and demoting too (especially if we can't sell). Poch actually done this in his first season, he signed about 7 players and promoted the academy bunch into the team whilst he dropped a number of others. I don't see any reason why we can't look at doing similar this summer. Sign ideally 5-6 (RB, LB, CB or two, DM, ST etc), list for sale about 8-9 (I've said who I'd try to bin on numerous threads), promote the likes of Skipp, Tanganga and possibly Parrott/ Eyoma/ Cirkin/ Roles and demote those who we may have been unable to sell.

Jose and Levy have their work cut out in the summer. We can't afford to piss about any more like we've done in previous seasons. Our window of opportunity to become an elite side seems gone but we now need to ensure we can at least get back to being a contender otherwise the wheels will truly fall off if we have another season like this and Kane & Son plus possibly Gio and others think "**** this, I'm out".

You make some good points DH. I think your final paragraph sums up my main concerns. Because the margins of error are so much finer now than they were 15 years ago under BMJ. The club's status is incomparably bigger, expectations have grown exponentially, money in the game has too, the EPL is an even tougher league than it was then as every year at least 2 of the promoted teams end up having superb seasons. Our wage structure back then was totally different and in a bizarre way, it was actually easier to recruit players than it is now. Back then, we were one of the biggest non-CL sides and so rather easily swatted away competition from the likes of Everton, Villa, Bolton etc. We weren't operating in the same stratosphere as the Uniteds, Chelseas, Arsenals and Pools of this world and so very rarely encountered much if any interference in our recruitment drives. Young up and coming players such as the ones you've mentioned probably saw us as the biggest ticket at the race in their bid to establish themselves as PL stars. Others such as Berbatov and Carrick without question saw us as a stepping stone to bigger things and were happy to join us and give their all for a couple of years before leaving.

Now, we are "stuck" in the sense that any player we're interested in is naturally of the caliber that the biggest clubs in Europe will also be sniffing, many of whom with far deeper pockets than our own. United's ability to attract Bruno is the latest example of this. We lacked the clout to get the deal over the line, they didn't.

It is really, really hard to compare the two eras. Ultimately, what I'm looking for is a clear plan of action. Similar to Poch's when he first joined. We got less points in 2014/15 than we did under the AVB/Baldini/Interim debacle of the preceding year, yet we fans were willing to overlook it because we could see the roots of a very clear identity beginning to form.

This week 5 years ago, we beat Arsenal at the Lane 2-1. It was a massive win for so many reasons. The limbs that day were mental. Our line up:

Hugo
Walker Dier Jan Rose
Mason Bentaleb
Lamela Eriksen Dembele
Kane

It was a team that was far from perfect. But Poch had a clear vision with the 4231 system that he had trialed with success at Soton, and set about laying its foundations here too. And over the subsequent 2 years, we brought in Toby, Dele, Son and Wanyama to complete the pieces of that puzzle and complete the system. That was it. Nothing major. No scorched earth policy. He took what he already had inherited and augmented it with 4 smart signings. What made them so smart was that they fit the system he wanted. We did exactly what Liverpool were doing, only they - unlike us - stuck to the plan and saw it through.

That system started to crumble the moment some buffoon decided it would be ok to replace Walker with Aurier/Trippier. It got worse when (possibly the same) some buffoon decided it would be ok to let Dembele leave without replacing him, then again to let Llorente leave without replacing him, then again to allow Rose and Wanyama to disintegrate without replacing them, until we arrive at the present moment where our squad is a jumbled mess of panic buys and overloaded positions with totally under-serviced ones elsewhere.

 

[Spurlock]

You make some good points DH. I think your final paragraph sums up my main concerns. Because the margins of error are so much finer now than they were 15 years ago under BMJ. The club's status is incomparably bigger, expectations have grown exponentially, money in the game has too, the EPL is an even tougher league than it was then as every year at least 2 of the promoted teams end up having superb seasons. Our wage structure back then was totally different and in a bizarre way, it was actually easier to recruit players than it is now. Back then, we were one of the biggest non-CL sides and so rather easily swatted away competition from the likes of Everton, Villa, Bolton etc. We weren't operating in the same stratosphere as the Uniteds, Chelseas, Arsenals and Pools of this world and so very rarely encountered much if any interference in our recruitment drives. Young up and coming players such as the ones you've mentioned probably saw us as the biggest ticket at the race in their bid to establish themselves as PL stars. Others such as Berbatov and Carrick without question saw us as a stepping stone to bigger things and were happy to join us and give their all for a couple of years before leaving.

Now, we are "stuck" in the sense that any player we're interested in is naturally of the caliber that the biggest clubs in Europe will also be sniffing, many of whom with far deeper pockets than our own. United's ability to attract Bruno is the latest example of this. We lacked the clout to get the deal over the line, they didn't.

It is really, really hard to compare the two eras. Ultimately, what I'm looking for is a clear plan of action. Similar to Poch's when he first joined. We got less points in 2014/15 than we did under the AVB/Baldini/Interim debacle of the preceding year, yet we fans were willing to overlook it because we could see the roots of a very clear identity beginning to form.

This week 5 years ago, we beat Arsenal at the Lane 2-1. It was a massive win for so many reasons. The limbs that day were mental. Our line up:

Hugo
Walker Dier Jan Rose
Mason Bentaleb
Lamela Eriksen Dembele
Kane

It was a team that was far from perfect. But Poch had a clear vision with the 4231 system that he had trialed with success at Soton, and set about laying its foundations here too. And over the subsequent 2 years, we brought in Toby, Dele, Son and Wanyama to complete the pieces of that puzzle and complete the system. That was it. Nothing major. No scorched earth policy. He took what he already had inherited and augmented it with 4 smart signings. What made them so smart was that they fit the system he wanted. We did exactly what Liverpool were doing, only they - unlike us - stuck to the plan and saw it through.

That system started to crumble the moment some buffoon decided it would be ok to replace Walker with Aurier/Trippier. It got worse when (possibly the same) some buffoon decided it would be ok to let Dembele leave without replacing him, then again to let Llorente leave without replacing him, then again to allow Rose and Wanyama to disintegrate without replacing them, until we arrive at the present moment where our squad is a jumbled mess of panic buys and overloaded positions with totally under-serviced ones elsewhere.

The time to deliver part of the football project and Levy is nowhere to be seen

 

[bigsmithy9]

The funny thing with our right back. According to statistics,he is 3rd in tackles made in the PL.....and he's pathetic!
I ask again....are there no good full backs in the lower leagues worth a shot,or do Spurs have to go crazy and spend fortunes on the continent?

 

[PowerSpurs]

You make some good points DH. I think your final paragraph sums up my main concerns. Because the margins of error are so much finer now than they were 15 years ago under BMJ. The club's status is incomparably bigger, expectations have grown exponentially, money in the game has too, the EPL is an even tougher league than it was then as every year at least 2 of the promoted teams end up having superb seasons. Our wage structure back then was totally different and in a bizarre way, it was actually easier to recruit players than it is now. Back then, we were one of the biggest non-CL sides and so rather easily swatted away competition from the likes of Everton, Villa, Bolton etc. We weren't operating in the same stratosphere as the Uniteds, Chelseas, Arsenals and Pools of this world and so very rarely encountered much if any interference in our recruitment drives. Young up and coming players such as the ones you've mentioned probably saw us as the biggest ticket at the race in their bid to establish themselves as PL stars. Others such as Berbatov and Carrick without question saw us as a stepping stone to bigger things and were happy to join us and give their all for a couple of years before leaving.

Now, we are "stuck" in the sense that any player we're interested in is naturally of the caliber that the biggest clubs in Europe will also be sniffing, many of whom with far deeper pockets than our own. United's ability to attract Bruno is the latest example of this. We lacked the clout to get the deal over the line, they didn't.

It is really, really hard to compare the two eras. Ultimately, what I'm looking for is a clear plan of action. Similar to Poch's when he first joined. We got less points in 2014/15 than we did under the AVB/Baldini/Interim debacle of the preceding year, yet we fans were willing to overlook it because we could see the roots of a very clear identity beginning to form.

This week 5 years ago, we beat Arsenal at the Lane 2-1. It was a massive win for so many reasons. The limbs that day were mental. Our line up:

Hugo
Walker Dier Jan Rose
Mason Bentaleb
Lamela Eriksen Dembele
Kane

It was a team that was far from perfect. But Poch had a clear vision with the 4231 system that he had trialed with success at Soton, and set about laying its foundations here too. And over the subsequent 2 years, we brought in Toby, Dele, Son and Wanyama to complete the pieces of that puzzle and complete the system. That was it. Nothing major. No scorched earth policy. He took what he already had inherited and augmented it with 4 smart signings. What made them so smart was that they fit the system he wanted. We did exactly what Liverpool were doing, only they - unlike us - stuck to the plan and saw it through.

That system started to crumble the moment some buffoon decided it would be ok to replace Walker with Aurier/Trippier. It got worse when (possibly the same) some buffoon decided it would be ok to let Dembele leave without replacing him, then again to let Llorente leave without replacing him, then again to allow Rose and Wanyama to disintegrate without replacing them, until we arrive at the present moment where our squad is a jumbled mess of panic buys and overloaded positions with totally under-serviced ones elsewhere.

As should be obvious to everyone but no-one seems to get apart from @humanbeingincroydon the problem we have arises solely from the fact that we didn't have enough revenue to buy better players. We got a good set of buys over a four year period who turned out to be good enough to get us to top four but couldn't afford to replace those with players of the same quality.
That problem is now partly solved as our revenue is now in the top four but signing the right players is still hard.
I'm quite shocked by how quickly Alderweireld, Vertonghen, Dier and Wanyama have declined. Replacing Dembele was always going to be a big ask.
As for Dele, he is well away from top form but got two assists yesterday and wasn't at all bad.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

Oh noes, somebody is disagreeing with our all-knowing coach and says that Eric Dier should be playing at right back

What's the name of this clueless cretin who knows nothing about football? Oh, right...it's Eric Dier
https://www.football.london/tottenh...ric-dier-tottenham-position-mourinho-17843567

Best blame Poch and Levy for this too, eh?

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Oh noes, somebody is disagreeing with our all-knowing coach and says that Eric Dier should be playing at right back

What's the name of this clueless cretin who knows nothing about football? Oh, right...it's Eric Dier
https://www.football.london/tottenh...ric-dier-tottenham-position-mourinho-17843567

Best blame Poch and Levy for this too, eh?

Dier says that he should be playing at centre-half... where he played.

 

[littleDinosaurLuke]

Dier says that he should be playing at centre-half... where he played.

Only in a back three as he needs quicker centre backs either side of him to run the channels.
Mourinho likes him because, as a defensive/holding midfielder or spare centre back, he has been good at shielding the defence and breaking up play on the edge of his own penalty area.
Mourinho obviously thinks he can still do that effectively.

 

[Treble]

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[humanbeingincroydon]

Only in a back three as he needs quicker centre backs either side of him to run the channels.
Mourinho likes him because, as a defensive/holding midfielder or spare centre back, he has been good at shielding the defence and breaking up play on the edge of his own penalty area.
Mourinho obviously thinks he can still do that effectively.

The issue is that, as anyone watching this season will attest, he can't do that effectively - and nor can anyone else in the team

- Dier has severe fitness issues this season so has lost half a yard of pace and can't play for 90 minutes
- Wanyama is broken beyond repair and has been for at least 18 months
- Winks isn't press resistant so while he can block channels he can't reliably break up play
- Skipp doesn't exist and we all imagined him

More than anything else this is the problem: if we had a Kante-type player in the squad that would give a far greater degree of freedom to whichever of Lo Celso, Winks, Ndombele or Jedson were accompanying them - but as we don't, all of them find themselves having to get forward in spite of starting on the back foot

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

Pass map time

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That's a lot of sideways and backwards on the right, and not a lot of anything on the left - and nobody thinking that playing through the middle up top might be a good idea

 

[Spurlock]

Pass map time

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That's a lot of sideways and backwards on the right, and not a lot of anything on the left - and nobody thinking that playing through the middle up top might be a good idea

Just proves that despite the **** Aurier gets...a lot of our attacks go through him

Like I have said...he’s playing an important role for us.

defensively, he is part of a **** backline on the whole.

Davies doesn’t have the attacking potential so he probably isn’t being searched out as much

Bergwijn, Alli, Moura...running about trying to take up the spaces Kane would occupy thus sacrificing their own natural positions and strengths

in other words...get the chequebook out Levy and give Jose the type of player he needs.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

Just proves that despite the **** Aurier gets...a lot of our attacks go through him

Like I have said...he’s playing an important role for us.

defensively, he is part of a **** backline on the whole.

Davies doesn’t have the attacking potential so he probably isn’t being searched out as much

Bergwijn, Alli, Moura...running about trying to take up the spaces Kane would occupy thus sacrificing their own natural positions and strengths

in other words...get the chequebook out Levy and give Jose the type of player he needs.

He does play an important attacking role - for both teams on the pitch, given his generosity in making sure their wide players have several yards head start

The key problem up front is that Dele and Lucas are both dropping deep to get the ball, so the only available out ball is Bergwijn - but as he's on the opposite side of the pitch to Aurier, Lo Celso and Lucas that means their passing would be more sideways than forwards to bring him into the game, and that's why we had numerous players on the right passing between one another and considerably less on the left, which is also why Bergwijn received the ball less than any other player bar Gazzaniga

More importantly, if we're going to play three at the back, we need a central midfield who can lock down the game, which we certainly did have when the Wanyama/Dembele pivot was sitting on opponents for a large chunk of games - but in comparison, does anyone think a Winks/Lo Celso pivot would be able to sit on a cushion effectively?

This is why we lose control of matches, because the spine is simply not strong - and that will only get exacerbated with some baffling tactical decisions such as playing three at the back when the player best suited to breaking up play is playing as an ersatz striker

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

Aurier is what he is...Kyle Walker in his wilderness years - mostly under AVB and Gilet Tim. Mauricio Pochettino had a good look at him and decided that he would be better off with Foyth. Probably because we'd lost the ability to control games in the midfield (post Wanyama and primo Mousa Dembele) and having a big hole in our back line was a real problem.

If we had 2 top midfielders bouncing the opposition around and forwards pressing the life out of teams, having no right back might very well be less of a problem...but we don't. Also, we don't have other defenders or a goalkeeper at the peak of their powers (or anywhere close).

We're defensively weak throughout the pitch and giving up the defence of one flank just distorts any shape we might have. Aurier may add something going forward but at what cost?

When we were scoring 3 goals to compensate for conceding 2, that was just about understandable...although it wasn't cutting it against better teams. Now we're unlikely to score 2 regularly, let alone 3, it seems ridiculous to many of us.

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

Given our current issues, Mourinho should just stick Aurier at right-wing and be done with it.
Tanganga and Foyth (when he's fit) can concentrate on being solid rightbacks and Aurier can give them some cover, too.
We're using our main wingers further forward anyway, so they won't be left out for a square peg.

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

Danny Kelly's had a gutsful of it too...

“So the team has through injury, departures, and strange selections been absolutely blown up. Whether by circumstance or by choice of management – you have a situation where Wolves’ front two, [Diogo] Jota and [Raul] Jimenez are as good as anybody away from Liverpool’s as of right now and he [Jose Mourinho] chooses to leave out his most experienced defenders, sling Eric Dier whose form since his illness just makes him look like he isn’t a professional footballer anymore, against [Japhet] Tanganga who’s trying to make his way. I don’t know what he’s thinking of here.

“I tell you what he’s thinking of actually – I’m gonna say it and he can sue me if he wants – he’s thinking I’ll keep all these fresh for Norwich during the week because I need to win a trophy here and the FA Cup is my best route to it.”

https://www.footballfancast.com/tot...ms-levy-pochettino-mourinho-mess-spurs-latest

 

[remembercolinlee]

Just proves that despite the **** Aurier gets...a lot of our attacks go through him

Like I have said...he’s playing an important role for us.

defensively, he is part of a **** backline on the whole.

Davies doesn’t have the attacking potential so he probably isn’t being searched out as much

Bergwijn, Alli, Moura...running about trying to take up the spaces Kane would occupy thus sacrificing their own natural positions and strengths

in other words...get the chequebook out Levy and give Jose the type of player he needs.

Aurier should play as a winger and support the full back...like Lennon did with BAE...maybe not should but it could be a way forward.
As for the cheque book...I think it is clear that we need 2 full backs, a keeper, at least one centre back, a defensive midfielder and a striker...we need to buy at LEAST 3 top players and maybe promote from within (ie...skipp/parrott) but they need to be in early imho...we can not be faffing around until the season starts as that always costs us points.

 

[BobbyD]

Aurier should play as a winger and support the full back...like Lennon did with BAE...maybe not should but it could be a way forward.
As for the cheque book...I think it is clear that we need 2 full backs, a keeper, at least one centre back, a defensive midfielder and a striker...we need to buy at LEAST 3 top players and maybe promote from within (ie...skipp/parrott) but they need to be in early imho...we can not be faffing around until the season starts as that always costs us points.

You will be faffing. Maybe one or two signings early but i don't think there's has ever been a window levy isnt hard negotiating til the very end