WTF happened to Pochettino?

[Spurlock]

The fact there was a clear difference in our play between when he was out of the team to when he was in it is a good reason to say results could have changed: when he was in the team he'd smash through teams and create space for Alli to make a late run into the area or Eriksen to play a defence-splitting pass, when he was out of the team we kept playing in front of teams and never actually breaking through - and we didn't have another player capable of playing like that until we signed Sissoko, and he arrived after we'd played our first three games

There's a difference between questioning our mentality and saying we have a bad mentality, and that game meant there was something those writing the think pieces could point to the match and not question our mentality but actually say we have a weak mentality. There's a reason why pundits started using the word "Spursy" after that season

Were you actually following the club at any point between 2015-17? At no point were we under any pressure to maintain our position at the top of the table, we were under pressure to chase, and those are two very different things, especially in 2015-16 when Leicester had a period where they consistently had a 24 hour head start over us, meaning the team couldn't simply focus on their game as they had results elsewhere hanging over their heads before a ball was kicked

Also, and I'm going to make this quite clear to you, if you're not going to make so much as a token effort to try and disagree with what I have said - because you know damn well that you can't - you're in no position to throw the word "petty" around

But go ahead, feel free to explain how ending a season with our momentum in the toilet, missing key personnel at the beginning of the following season, and allowing plenty of Narratives to be written about us which came into play the following season obviously had no effect whatsoever on us. I'd love to read that - and then pick it apart like a vulture picks apart a carcass

There will always be a ‘reason’ for us failing to seems.

Next season if we have a **** start you can blame it on the upcoming Euros

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

There will always be a ‘reason’ for us failing to seems.

Next season if we have a **** start you can blame it on the upcoming Euros

You mean like how England and Belgium going deep into the last World Cup affected us in 2018-19 when various players looked knackered?

There's a reason why the Old Firm haven't had a slow start to the season in over twenty years...

 

[Spurlock]

You mean like how England and Belgium going deep into the last World Cup affected us in 2018-19 when various players looked knackered?

There's a reason why the Old Firm haven't had a slow start to the season in over twenty years...

That reason is because them 2 teams are miles better than the rest as has been proven for decades in what is a very poor league

England and Belgium had players from other clubs too. Plus this is football...it’s how it works...how the 4 year cycle works...it’s not a reason for making excuses. How about they were knackered because Levy decided to have a few barren windows around that time thus increasing the workload on the players? Depends if you want to take your blinkers off or not.

 

[BobbyD]

There will always be a ‘reason’ for us failing to seems.

Next season if we have a **** start you can blame it on the upcoming Euros

You called it

 

[PleaseNotPoll]

That reason is because them 2 teams are miles better than the rest as has been proven for decades in what is a very poor league

England and Belgium had players from other clubs too. Plus this is football...it’s how it works...how the 4 year cycle works...it’s not a reason for making excuses. How about they were knackered because Levy decided to have a few barren windows around that time thus increasing the workload on the players? Depends if you want to take your blinkers off or not.

That definitely didn't help, but didn't we have more players with the semi-finalists than anyone else?
Nine in total, which included the winning captain, IIRC.

 

[Dier Hard]

I think we as a club experienced a period of excessive growth too quickly but then failed to capitalise on it and ultimately went backwards so it cost Poch his job.

The five year plan was to probably see us get top four around year four (maybe three), instead we got there in year two and had one of two seasons of being in a title challenge. Because the expectations - rightly or wrongly - wouldn't have been so high at the start and (and during) those seasons, our ambitions in the market meant we probably didn't go for the right types of players (Son aside), the building and funding of the new stadium also didn't help at those exact moments.

Our window of opportunity was then somewhat over before we knew it and it was about consolidating on top four, especially whilst the new girl was being built. The CL final last season proved momentous yet catastrophic in equal measure, great to get there but the dog **** performance and result wrecked what was already a side lacking an "elite mentality" and so instead of coming into this season fired up to go one better we came in feeling sorry for ourselves.

Despite the fact the playing personnel needs upgrading, we are now in a position to call ourselves a "big club" without feeling too cautious about it. We have the elite training ground, we have the best stadium in Europe at present, we have a box office manager and this season saw us spend like a "big club" for once (despite ****ing up the striker situation). What now needs to be ensured going forward is that we continue at this level, we invest in the right players regardless of their price and we hope Mourinho can continue his legacy of being a "winning manager" to get us over that line which we failed to cross under Pochettino, Redknapp, AVB and Sherwood and actually win something - and hope it's the first of many to come in the following years.

 

[BobbyD]

I think we as a club experienced a period of excessive growth too quickly but then failed to capitalise on it and ultimately went backwards so it cost Poch his job.

The five year plan was to probably see us get top four around year four (maybe three), instead we got there in year two and had one of two seasons of being in a title challenge. Because the expectations - rightly or wrongly - wouldn't have been so high at the start and (and during) those seasons, our ambitions in the market meant we probably didn't go for the right types of players (Son aside), the building and funding of the new stadium also didn't help at those exact moments.

Our window of opportunity was then somewhat over before we knew it and it was about consolidating on top four, especially whilst the new girl was being built. The CL final last season proved momentous yet catastrophic in equal measure, great to get there but the dog **** performance and result wrecked what was already a side lacking an "elite mentality" and so instead of coming into this season fired up to go one better we came in feeling sorry for ourselves.

Despite the fact the playing personnel needs upgrading, we are now in a position to call ourselves a "big club" without feeling too cautious about it. We have the elite training ground, we have the best stadium in Europe at present, we have a box office manager and this season saw us spend like a "big club" for once (despite ****ing up the striker situation). What now needs to be ensured going forward is that we continue at this level, we invest in the right players regardless of their price and we hope Mourinho can continue his legacy of being a "winning manager" to get us over that line which we failed to cross under Pochettino, Redknapp, AVB and Sherwood and actually win something - and hope it's the first of many to come in the following years.

But dier, how can levy spend more this summer after spending so much last summer. You have a stadium debt to pay over the next 1000 years and the 500m extra per year needs to be saved up to pay off the stadium else spurs might do the next leeds/blackburn/bolton and fall into admin

 

[Dier Hard]

But dier, how can levy spend more this summer after spending so much last summer. You have a stadium debt to pay over the next 1000 years and the 500m extra per year needs to be saved up to pay off the stadium else spurs might do the next leeds/blackburn/bolton and fall into admin

Sarcasm isn't welcome here, Bob! .

All seriousness I think things just needs perspective. Spurs fans shouldn't expect City/ Utd/ Chelsea style spending but they can expect a healthy level now. One, maybe two £40m+ signings should in theory be no longer scoffed as being "too expensive" for a club like us, especially if we can get CL football on a regular/ semi regular basis.

 

[KingHotspur]

But dier, how can levy spend more this summer after spending so much last summer. You have a stadium debt to pay over the next 1000 years and the 500m extra per year needs to be saved up to pay off the stadium else spurs might do the next leeds/blackburn/bolton and fall into admin

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

Sarcasm isn't welcome here, Bob! .

All seriousness I think things just needs perspective. Spurs fans shouldn't expect City/ Utd/ Chelsea style spending but they can expect a healthy level now. One, maybe two £40m+ signings should in theory be no longer scoffed as being "too expensive" for a club like us, especially if we can get CL football on a regular/ semi regular basis.

This is the worst thing: some Spurs fans do hold up Chelsea and The Sheikh Mansour Team as measuring sticks for what we should be spending, which is ****ing bonkers - and also the reason I call them The Lunatic Fringe, because they're not giving off the impression that they'd pass a psychiatric test (especially the real nutcases, such as those actually advocating for Joe Lewis to be killed - yes, I have seen that ****)

The thing is, we also shouldn't be holding up Ajax as a measuring stick, because Ajax and PSV are the daddies of the Eredivisie, so while they don't have the financial might of Barca, Los Ladrones, Bayern or Juve they occupy a similar place in the mentality of their country's league, which not only gives them an advantage when it comes to recruiting players but definitely plays a major role in youth recruitment - and similar can be said for the trio of Benfica, Sporting and Porto in Portugal (as well as numerous leagues a couple of rungs further down the ladder, most obviously Dinamo Zagreb for Croatia, while Serbia has Red Star and Partizan in similar roles)

And here's the problem: Dortmund and Atleti are the clubs most often held up as teams we need to emulate, and I wholeheartedly agree with this...but the problem is there's parts of our infrastructure that pale next to theirs, most obviously scouting, because while Dortmund and Atleti seem to have an enviable talent for identifying the exact player they need and signing them while we...well to put it bluntly, we don't, which is why we ended up paying £11m and enduring a ton of hassle for Nkoudou while Dortmund paid £7m for Ousmane Dembele in the same window (which was reportedly why Paul Mitchell was given the heave-ho), and there's so many examples of us paying far more for a lesser player when one who is currently at a higher level was available for considerably less during the exact same window that it gets past "**** happens" and more into "Oh ****, not again..."

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

This is the worst thing: some Spurs fans do hold up Chelsea and The Sheikh Mansour Team as measuring sticks for what we should be spending, which is ****ing bonkers - and also the reason I call them The Lunatic Fringe, because they're not giving off the impression that they'd pass a psychiatric test (especially the real nutcases, such as those actually advocating for Joe Lewis to be killed - yes, I have seen that ****)

The thing is, we also shouldn't be holding up Ajax as a measuring stick, because Ajax and PSV are the daddies of the Eredivisie, so while they don't have the financial might of Barca, Los Ladrones, Bayern or Juve they occupy a similar place in the mentality of their country's league, which not only gives them an advantage when it comes to recruiting players but definitely plays a major role in youth recruitment - and similar can be said for the trio of Benfica, Sporting and Porto in Portugal (as well as numerous leagues a couple of rungs further down the ladder, most obviously Dinamo Zagreb for Croatia, while Serbia has Red Star and Partizan in similar roles)

And here's the problem: Dortmund and Atleti are the clubs most often held up as teams we need to emulate, and I wholeheartedly agree with this...but the problem is there's parts of our infrastructure that pale next to theirs, most obviously scouting, because while Dortmund and Atleti seem to have an enviable talent for identifying the exact player they need and signing them while we...well to put it bluntly, we don't, which is why we ended up paying £11m and enduring a ton of hassle for Nkoudou while Dortmund paid £7m for Ousmane Dembele in the same window (which was reportedly why Paul Mitchell was given the heave-ho), and there's so many examples of us paying far more for a lesser player when one who is currently at a higher level was available for considerably less during the exact same window that it gets past "**** happens" and more into "Oh ****, not again..."

I agree that we're not performing anywhere the level of Dortmund or Atletico, but GKN is down to Poch. We were scouting Batshuayi and Poch liked the look of GKN and despite the scouts not agreeing with our then manager, we backed his judgment... it turned out that the scouts had it pegged right all along. He was crap.

I've heard that Vinnie was a similar story. Poch picked him and then never played him to his best abilities.

The problem's not that we're no good at scouting but that too many cooks are spoiling the broth. Everyone and his dog gets a say...and Levy buys players that the manager doesn't want, whilst the manager signs players that the scouts don't rate and the decisions are taken by people who don't do this stuff for a living. It's amateur hour.

It needs to be stopped. Appoint a proper DoF and recruitment team and let them get on with it.

 

[Dier Hard]

This is the worst thing: some Spurs fans do hold up Chelsea and The Sheikh Mansour Team as measuring sticks for what we should be spending, which is ****ing bonkers - and also the reason I call them The Lunatic Fringe, because they're not giving off the impression that they'd pass a psychiatric test (especially the real nutcases, such as those actually advocating for Joe Lewis to be killed - yes, I have seen that ****)

The thing is, we also shouldn't be holding up Ajax as a measuring stick, because Ajax and PSV are the daddies of the Eredivisie, so while they don't have the financial might of Barca, Los Ladrones, Bayern or Juve they occupy a similar place in the mentality of their country's league, which not only gives them an advantage when it comes to recruiting players but definitely plays a major role in youth recruitment - and similar can be said for the trio of Benfica, Sporting and Porto in Portugal (as well as numerous leagues a couple of rungs further down the ladder, most obviously Dinamo Zagreb for Croatia, while Serbia has Red Star and Partizan in similar roles)

And here's the problem: Dortmund and Atleti are the clubs most often held up as teams we need to emulate, and I wholeheartedly agree with this...but the problem is there's parts of our infrastructure that pale next to theirs, most obviously scouting, because while Dortmund and Atleti seem to have an enviable talent for identifying the exact player they need and signing them while we...well to put it bluntly, we don't, which is why we ended up paying £11m and enduring a ton of hassle for Nkoudou while Dortmund paid £7m for Ousmane Dembele in the same window (which was reportedly why Paul Mitchell was given the heave-ho), and there's so many examples of us paying far more for a lesser player when one who is currently at a higher level was available for considerably less during the exact same window that it gets past "**** happens" and more into "Oh ****, not again..."

I agree with practically all of that, the only thing I'd slightly differ on is that I think our scouting is great, borderline brilliant in fact but it's the decision making that's been generally poor.

The Nkoudou-Demebele decision is part of what I mean, Dembele was also on our radar at Rennes yet we opted for Nkoudou. We went for Aurier over Ricardo. The likes of Maguire (Sheff Utd & Hull) and Maddison (Coventry & Norwich) were two we'd been strongly linked with prior to their Leicester moves. I'm pretty sure Mbappe was on our radar before he even broke through at Monaco. There's also situations out of our control where players we wanted but were either rejected by them or their club, Frenkie de Jong said he felt it was too soon to join us a couple years back whilst City rejected our demand to include Sancho in the Walker deal.

So in general I think we're looking at the right players for the most part but whether we should blame Poch, Levy or *an other*, we've made some pretty poor calls over the years on who to and not to sign.

 

[Billy The Spur]

We do not expect £ity or Cheatski levels of spending but want to see a level of spending commensurate with our status as the 8th richest and one of the most profitable clubs in the world. We should no longer be missing out on transfer targets because Levy refuses to pay a player an extra 20K a week, or refuses to pay an extra million or two on the transfer fee. The goal should now be silverware, not record breaking profits, sadly (up to now) our owners are profit before glory merchants and unlikely to ever change their ways. I`ll change my avatar if we ever win another trophy.

 

[Spurf]

We do not expect £ity or Cheatski levels of spending but want to see a level of spending commensurate with our status as the 8th richest and one of the most profitable clubs in the world. We should no longer be missing out on transfer targets because Levy refuses to pay a player an extra 20K a week, or refuses to pay an extra million or two on the transfer fee. The goal should now be silverware, not record breaking profits, sadly (up to now) our owners are profit before glory merchants and unlikely to ever change their ways. I`ll change my avatar if we ever win another trophy.

Not since the early 1960's have we been top 4 or better for 4 seasons in a row. We have the best football stadium and training facilities in the world. We have signed the manager with the best record in the world. The fact we are placed 8th in the world financially during ENICS tenure is not a coincidence. I can't see where your argument has any credibility at all? Do you think we can sign any player we want? There are 7 teams with more clout than us for a start, so how does that work?

 

[Spurf]

Not since the early 1960's have we been top 4 or better for 4 seasons in a row. We have the best football stadium and training facilities in the world. We have signed the manager with the best record in the world. The fact we are placed 8th in the world financially during ENICS tenure is not a coincidence. I can't see where your argument has any credibility at all? Do you think we can sign any player we want? There are 7 teams with more clout than us for a start, so how does that work?

If you criticised ENIC for charging fans so much to watch Spurs I would be with you, in that sense they have taken the team away from supporters so I don't think they are perfect by any means but in terms of building a team and management they have done better than any Spurs owners since the 1960's

 

[Spurf]

1901–02 30 18 6 6 61 22 42 2nd R1 Western League 2nd Sandy Brown 34
London League 2nd
Southern Charity Cup[7] W
1902–03 30 14 7 9 47 31 35 4th QF Western League 4th David Copeland 13
London League W
Southern Charity Cup R1
1903–04 34 16 11 7 54 37 43 2nd QF Western League W Jack Jones 26


1960–61[12] 42 31 4 7 115 55 66 1st W Bobby Smith 33
1961–62 42 21 10 11 88 69 52 3rd W Charity Shield W Jimmy Greaves 30
European Cup SF
1962–63 42 23 9 10 111 62 55 2nd R3 Charity Shield W Jimmy Greaves 44
Cup Winners' Cup W
1963–64 42 22 7 13 97 81 51 4th R3 Cup Winners' Cup R1 Jimmy Greaves 36


There are the best two runs season by season in Spurs entire history and if we get top 4 this season we will have exceeded both.

 

[Billy The Spur]

If you criticised ENIC for charging fans so much to watch Spurs I would be with you, in that sense they have taken the team away from supporters so I don't think they are perfect by any means but in terms of building a team and management they have done better than any Spurs owners since the 1960's

It`s only taken them 20 years! I`m not criticizing ENIC for what they have done regarding infrastructure, the stadium and training ground are fantastic and has set the club up for the future. The problem is they are a business first and a football club second, only interested in profit and maximizing their investment, one paltry League Cup in almost 20 years tells us all we need to know, they have had opportunities to push us on to possible glory when even just some limited investment in the team would have given us a great chance, and they were too cautious every time.

 

[Spurf]

It`s only taken them 20 years! I`m not criticizing ENIC for what they have done regarding infrastructure, the stadium and training ground are fantastic and has set the club up for the future. The problem is they are a business first and a football club second, only interested in profit and maximizing their investment, one paltry League Cup in almost 20 years tells us all we need to know, they have had opportunities to push us on to possible glory when even just some limited investment in the team would have given us a great chance, and they were too cautious every time.

Yes if you measure it by cups then we have done better in the 70's and 80's but you cannot ever guarantee silverware unless you are as dominant as Liverpool are now or Spurs were in the early 60's but if you look at league position it does give you a truer picture of how good your team are and on that basis there is not too much to complain about. Arsenal, Chelsea, Man U., Liverpool and Man City all have more financial clout than Spurs so 6th is our 'natural' position we can probably move up that league a little in the coming years thanks to the infrastructure that ENIC have organised so again they come out well.Whether we get this or that player is dependent on many factors including of course the player himself. I think we can already see that with Spurs profile raised thanks to the new stadium and Pochettino getting us to CL final and now having Mourinho at the club we might expect to improve our squad in the summer. Plus at the moment we could still win silver in this season so don't despair Billy you may still have to take that avatar down.

 

["Thanks for that Brian"]

I agree with practically all of that, the only thing I'd slightly differ on is that I think our scouting is great, borderline brilliant in fact but it's the decision making that's been generally poor.

The Nkoudou-Demebele decision is part of what I mean, Dembele was also on our radar at Rennes yet we opted for Nkoudou. We went for Aurier over Ricardo. The likes of Maguire (Sheff Utd & Hull) and Maddison (Coventry & Norwich) were two we'd been strongly linked with prior to their Leicester moves. I'm pretty sure Mbappe was on our radar before he even broke through at Monaco. There's also situations out of our control where players we wanted but were either rejected by them or their club, Frenkie de Jong said he felt it was too soon to join us a couple years back whilst City rejected our demand to include Sancho in the Walker deal.

So in general I think we're looking at the right players for the most part but whether we should blame Poch, Levy or *an other*, we've made some pretty poor calls over the years on who to and not to sign.

I think part of it's analysis paralysis and the rest is too many people having a say in the final decision. For reasons that we'll probably never know, we ****ed up purchasing Grealish...was it the price...or getting Eriksen out first...or Poch insisting on Ndombele or de Jong? It doesn't matter now, as long as we don't repeat it.

The club's diversifying in myriad directions - NFL, concerts, boxing, rugby and increasingly there are more and more commercial relationships to be created and managed. Daniel Levy HAS to delegate stuff.

Recruitment is a specialist function, we need specialists to do it and they need to be thinking at least a couple of years ahead. No more last minute decisions - it's very rare for top talent to move on a whim, such players (and their agents) need to be courted and we need to know what's going on in a player's head before we commit tens of millions on him or miss out on alternatives. We need a permanent presence, talking to agents and creating better relationships with clubs, so that they don't all decide to 'lock horns' with the infamous Daniel Levy when we come calling.

Now that we've returned to having a Chief Coach, rather than a manager, I am expecting us to sort out the current mess...

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

It`s only taken them 20 years! I`m not criticizing ENIC for what they have done regarding infrastructure, the stadium and training ground are fantastic and has set the club up for the future. The problem is they are a business first and a football club second, only interested in profit and maximizing their investment, one paltry League Cup in almost 20 years tells us all we need to know, they have had opportunities to push us on to possible glory when even just some limited investment in the team would have given us a great chance, and they were too cautious every time.

Of all the criticisms I don't get it's this one: Manchester United have been a business first and a football club for at least twenty years, and their being a money-making machine off the pitch for so long played a large part in their dominance - and also explains why it required Uncle Roman to show up before anyone could challenge them financially, because while Arsenal were able to occasionally pip them on the pitch the second two financial juggernauts showed up they stopped winning titles overnight