Match Day Thread WATFORD v TRANMERE ROVERS

[oldfrenchhorn]

In many European leagues (not sure about France) the top clubs have reserve teams playing in lower divisions which allows them to better judge so called fringe players (and keep them match fit). In Portugal, Italy and the Netherlands this is possible at level 2 of their league - so Jong Ajax, Jong Utrecht, AZ Alkmaar and PSV all have teams playing in their second division. In Germany and Spain it's possible at level 3. At Ajax they are required to register players as being in the first team squad or in the Jong Ajax squad in the second division - with change over only being possible during transfer windows, or if a player has not yet completed 15 appearances for the first team. On the negative side Jong Ajax cannot be promoted, even if they win their league - but this ensures that new players to the club can be thoroughly tested, at a competitive level, before moving up. Clubs like Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund have the same. Unfortunately no such system operates in England - but my feeling is that if a Watford 2 squad were playing in, say, division 1 that it would have far more of a positive effect than the occasional appearance against other under 23 sides. Most leagues allow this so why not England ?

The set up in England is very different to other European countries. There are five professional leagues in England, with many of the smaller towns having a team and a dedicated bunch of supporters. In France there is just two fully professional leagues, and the third tier is made up of teams which will have some full time players, some part timers and some amateurs. The teams in the two professional leagues do have second teams playing in regional leagues, but not above that level.
If the larger clubs in England were allowed to have second eleven teams inserted into the league structure it would push some of the small town teams into a lower and probably poorer situation than they are in now. Since 1958 when the old third divisions north and south were merged to form the fourth division, and since 1987 when the conference had an automatic right to promotion to the football league, football has become more national and less regional. While that gives teams the chance of a rapid rise through the divisions, it also creates problems for those going the other way. I still want to see the fans of the small clubs have their day, and don't fancy the larger clubs who have all the money take even more out of the game with second teams in the leagues.

 

[Markthehorn]

It has been discussed by managers and players from overseas but rubbished by the traditionalists as OFH suggests.

I am not sure where you could put B teams - there is enough fuss made about them being allowed into the Football League Trophy!

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

There used to be the Football Combination leagues and Cup competitions, which came to and end really when the PL reserve league was formed in 1999. Once again it was the big clubs calling the shots for their own benefit. That league came to a halt when the current EPPP games were started, and clubs who were similar in size to Watford couldn't afford the requirements of membership.

 

[colognehornet]

The set up in England is very different to other European countries. There are five professional leagues in England, with many of the smaller towns having a team and a dedicated bunch of supporters. In France there is just two fully professional leagues, and the third tier is made up of teams which will have some full time players, some part timers and some amateurs. The teams in the two professional leagues do have second teams playing in regional leagues, but not above that level.
If the larger clubs in England were allowed to have second eleven teams inserted into the league structure it would push some of the small town teams into a lower and probably poorer situation than they are in now. Since 1958 when the old third divisions north and south were merged to form the fourth division, and since 1987 when the conference had an automatic right to promotion to the football league, football has become more national and less regional. While that gives teams the chance of a rapid rise through the divisions, it also creates problems for those going the other way. I still want to see the fans of the small clubs have their day, and don't fancy the larger clubs who have all the money take even more out of the game with second teams in the leagues.

Ok. I take your point Frenchie - there are negative sides to it. I guess that Jong Ajax are preventing some club from taking their place in the league - but this might be a blessing in disguise because moving up through the leagues can also be a problem - there is always a point where promotion is conditional upon a club changing its status from eg. semi professional to full professional. There are some clubs in the nationwide league who cannot afford to be promoted for this reason.

 

[Markthehorn]

Bachmann was a bit lucky not to be sent off it seems - no VAR check?

Probably wishes he was red carded now - until that incident thought the guy had done ok TBH.

Pereyra didn't seem to make a lot of contact but just walked off without argument. ​

 

[NZHorn]

Pearson will not be happy with the effort of some of the senior players.

 

[andytoprankin]

Craig Shakespeare should have had a firm word in Pearson's ear before this game. He was in the Walsall team which drew a cup tie 4-4 at the Vic in 1987, when they were a third division side - another crazy cup tie which immediately followed a 4-3 win against Harlow Town in the previous round. When lower teams are up for it and have 2,700 fans travelling with them then anything is possible, particularly if you try experimenting against them. Nothing less than your strongest side is suitable for this kind of match.

I was at both of those, cologne. Harlow was years before that. 1979ish. I went to the replay(s?) for the Walsall game(s). Was there more than one replay, can’t remember?

 

[andytoprankin]

I was there
We lost the game when Chalobah and Quina went off
The youngsters did well but need game time. but need our best eleven for the survival battle
Success, Gray and maybe Pereyra need new teams to rebuild their careers
The replay needs our best team to rebuild team pride

I agree with you till the end, duggie. I think the youngsters could deal with Tranmere, particularly if Quina and Chalobah play 90 mins. Bit disappointed fitness-wise that such young kids cramped up so early. Dele-Bashiru was another with cramp that forced him off.

 

[andytoprankin]

Bachmann was a bit lucky not to be sent off it seems - no VAR check?

Probably wishes he was red carded now - until that incident thought the guy had done ok TBH.

Pereyra didn't seem to make a lot of contact but just walked off without argument. ​

Bachmann was OK, very close, but the whole of the ball hadn’t crossed the line so he was good. Well judged by lino.
The ref had a mare, I thought. Wasn’t protecting our players at all, a couple of whom were proper scythed down. Easy decisions went their way and he had no control of the shirt-pulling and flagrant pushing (one double-handed shove left me speechless that he hadn’t blown - it was right in front of him and denied us control of the ball!!)
I agree Bachmann did well catching crosses and looked very much a quality keeper, so I guess the drop or poorly punched one that led to a goal for them was just a lack of match sharpness. But he was OK. I thought the young lad in the middle at the end did well, name escapes me.

But Gray has to go. He is just not a Premiership player. The trouble is, he’s on £75K p.w. and no one is going to pay him anything like that again, so mercenary sod he is, he just wants to see out his contract. I don’t think he’s bothered about game-time, winning matches with another team, or even honours - it’s all about the green in his wallet.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

I was at both of those, cologne. Harlow was years before that. 1979ish. I went to the replay(s?) for the Walsall game(s). Was there more than one replay, can’t remember?

Saturday 21st February 1-1
Tuesday 24th February 4-4 aet
Monday 2nd March 1-0 og won it

 

[andytoprankin]

Saturday 21st February 1-1
Tuesday 24th February 4-4 aet
Monday 2nd March 1-0 og won it

Well done! I went to all of those.
Dad just just kept saying “Well, I suppose we better see the replay...”

 

[andytoprankin]

I went to Harlow, too. The Bolton free-kick will live long in the memory. He blasted that ball like a cannon.

 

[Hornet-Fez]

So what're the odds, that during the replay, on a critical decision going against us that would otherwise be ruled out by VAR?
Now we have a situation where the laws change from match to match. Ridiculous.
Wholly unsatisfactory today.
Gray and Success (surely the most ironically named player anywhere?) ought to be shown the door. Finished with too many players looking like they've not had their first shave and they are up against some hardened pro's. Poor from NP.

 

[brian_66_usa]

I think it was a great result .NP can now go to the Board as tell them Pereyra is ok as back up Gray less so Success needs to be moved on .Pedro needs game time and he will get it in 10 days time the 3 centra Mid used today can hold there own if needed. None of our 1st 11 got any knocks, Should any of our injured players recover in the next 10 days but need some game time then they can play in that game

 

[Chris 13]

Success had a reasonable game tbh.
Team were excellent 1st half but Chalobah coming off at half time changed the match. A number of the younger players suffered from cramp which couldn't have been anticipated and that caused problems with substitutions and the balance of the team. Gray knows he played badly, have we seen the last of him? I doubt it as nobody else will pay the wages he is on here, besides if we did go down he may well score lots in the Championship.

 

[andytoprankin]

Success had a reasonable game tbh.
Team were excellent 1st half but Chalobah coming off at half time changed the match. A number of the younger players suffered from cramp which couldn't have been anticipated and that caused problems with substitutions and the balance of the team. Gray knows he played badly, have we seen the last of him? I doubt it as nobody else will pay the wages he is on here, besides if we did go down he may well score lots in the Championship.

I agree with all of that, Chris. Much as I hate to say it, even the last point! I hope there is a wages cut if we go down though - the idea of watching Gray score one in three on £75k p.w. would still be pretty galling.

 

[andytoprankin]

It’s interesting when you look back at Success, how we felt about him when he started, etc. I kept tipping him to friends, “Yeah, but you watch out for this young lad we’ve just signed - Success, he’s quick and knows where the goal is, and just attacks.”
What happened to him? Was that exuberance discouraged in training and a more conservative approach didn’t sit well? Was he caught up too much in the bad side of Premier League player lifestyle? I think he was mixed up in some prostitute minor scandal. But he’s never regained what he had when he joined - a boyish ‘just run at them’, almost “They don’t like it up ‘em!” running at opposing defenders, holding the ball well, “You’re gonna have to win this ball off me or bring me down ‘cos I ain’t passing it backwards or sideways, and I’ll be in your penalty area in 10 seconds and scoring or assisting a mate, so what you gonna do?” That is horrible to play against, but now he is largely predictable and his main weapon just seems to be his weight. Shame.

 

[Markthehorn]

So what're the odds, that during the replay, on a critical decision going against us that would otherwise be ruled out by VAR?
Now we have a situation where the laws change from match to match. Ridiculous.
Wholly unsatisfactory today.
Gray and Success (surely the most ironically named player anywhere?) ought to be shown the door. Finished with too many players looking like they've not had their first shave and they are up against some hardened pro's. Poor from NP.

Same for both sides I guess but fair point.

They would have been going potty had there be no VAR yesterday for example!

Gray just got out bullied and muscled very easily whilst Success did do some runs and showed pace but not enough in that 2nd half hence why Tranmere kept putting us under pressure a lot capitalising on the lack of experience and injuries.

 

[HHTFC1]

Does anyone have an opinion or has seen the red card incident? I couldn't see it very clearly, but it just seemed to be a mess of legs trying to get the ball was there a snide stamp by Pereyra? Thought it was harsh, not an excuse for us not finishing the job, but it did seem to be the icing on the cake in terms of decisions going against us
Finally what are people opinion on the lack of consistency with a number of shoves on JP and Gray going unnoticed or punished?

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

Does anyone have or have seen the red card incident? I couldn't see it very clearly, but it just seemed to be a mess of legs trying to get the bal was there a snide stamp by Pereyra? Thought it was harsh, not an excuse for us not finishing the job, but it did seem to be the icing on the cake in terms of decisions going against us
Finally what are people opinion on the lack of consistency with a number of shives on JP and Gray going unnoticed or punished?

I watched it several times in both real time and slow motion. Pereyra appeared to accidently stand on their defenders foot when he went in to try and get the ball out of the melee of legs. In normal circumstances it would have resulted in a freekick, and maybe some refs would have waved a yellow card. The ref had been having a bad day with two VAR decisions going against him, and he overreacted in my opinion. Jon Marks who I was listening to as there was no commentary with the live streams was dumbfounded. Pereyra who had not had a good game either seemed pleased to just away from it all. There were certainly tackles going in that the ref ignored, not a PL standard official at all.